NOT GUILTY WA - Parents try to kidnap daughter over forced marriage - November 3, 2024 (NG of attempted murder; Guilty of lesser charges)

[seasideForest]

At least there are resources in the US for abused women, hopefully she can find a way to keep safe

In the DM article they mention "School officials arranged for her to stay at a women's shelter, but didn't provide her with transport so she and her boyfriend went outside to catch the bus." So yes, a resource to keep her safe, except when getting around town especially to and from school.

I can understand shelters or other organisations not having the money to ferry women around, but otoh it obviously is a problem that there's this gap in safety.

On another topic, I'd be worried about the paternal uncle in Canada too, worried about him and his family as a potential danger for the victim.
JMO

 

[LAborn]

In the DM article they mention "School officials arranged for her to stay at a women's shelter, but didn't provide her with transport so she and her boyfriend went outside to catch the bus." So yes, a resource to keep her safe, except when getting around town especially to and from school.

I can understand shelters or other organisations not having the money to ferry women around, but otoh it obviously is a problem that there's this gap in safety.

On another topic, I'd be worried about the paternal uncle in Canada too, worried about him and his family as a potential danger for the victim.
JMO

What are the odds Fatima was basically "home free", and ended up still being a victim? Yes, there are gaps in coverage. I won't get into what I think on that front because I don't want to be deleted. I guess our society has to keep finding ways to provide all the services necessary on less and less funding and support.

After you shared the info about the family in Canada, I had the same worry. Fatima has to guard herself against family and embrace the help of strangers. How backwards is that.

 

[seasideForest]

What are the odds Fatima was basically "home free", and ended up still being a victim?

I don't know, from other cases I've read about in families like hers (with the 'honour killing' * mindset) they'll keep looking for years, they can't let it go that their daughter has been 'disobedient' to their wishes, so frighteningly enough the 'disobedient' daughter is never really "home free". How awful, always looking over your shoulder, metaphorically or factually. MOO
And also how awful probably never really knowing who you can trust within your whole extended family. And maybe having to estrange yourself from all of them just in order not to be murdered by a family member.
JMO

* I put 'honour killing' in inverted commas to show that unfortunately for some people it IS a concept, although for those of us for whom it is not a concept, there is no honour in it, obviously. When I see "honour killing" in print I automatically know roughly what it is about so I think it is important to be able to use the term. But I know there is debate about that, in my country too - not just in the US.

 

[Sundog]

This is training that the AHA Foundation gives to social workers, educators, shelters and LE regarding honor violence and forced marriages. Toward the end of the presentation they give the real life examples of daughters from Afhanistan and Iraq who were ultimately murdered by their families, with family members stalking the victims even after they had left home, in one case.

Read/watch this Honor Violence training video and weep. This is what Fatima Ali is up against.

Trainings for Professionals Encountering Female Genital Mutilation, Forced Marriage and Honor Violence - AHA Foundation

Trainings for Professionals Encountering Female Genital Mutilation (FGM), Forced Marriage and Honor Violence. AHA Foundation provides both in-person and online training and education for law enforcement, educators, shelters, service providers, and other.

www.theahafoundation.org

 

[turaj]

This is training that the AHA Foundation gives to social workers, educators, shelters and LE regarding honor violence and forced marriages. Toward the end of the presentation they give the real life examples of daughters from Afhanistan and Iraq who were ultimately murdered by their families, with family members stalking the victims even after they had left home, in one case.

Read/watch this Honor Violence training video and weep. This is what Fatima Ali is up against.

Trainings for Professionals Encountering Female Genital Mutilation, Forced Marriage and Honor Violence - AHA Foundation

Trainings for Professionals Encountering Female Genital Mutilation (FGM), Forced Marriage and Honor Violence. AHA Foundation provides both in-person and online training and education for law enforcement, educators, shelters, service providers, and other.

www.theahafoundation.org

The father and mother are interesting to watch in court. Zero emotion. The camera is most often on the father and as he looks at his daughter and the boy he looks to me like he is ready to go after both of them again. I don't know what the parents face in this "attempted murder" case but hope at least the father is put in prison for a long time. The video says it all. I have yet to determine from the parts I have watched what exactly is the defense here? I don't see what it could be. As I understand it Fatima is what? 18? Not sure what is next for her and where she will be safe.

 

[turaj]

Listened to a bit of court tv commentary and I am now concerned this is overcharged as so many are. I don't think they can prove what was in father or mother's heads in terms of killing their daughter. I started with conversation in arabic and escalated. It seems it is more "assault". With limited knowledge of the impending arranged marriage and trip to Iraq and "honor killing". Just because daughter felt lilke he was trying to kill her does not make it so. They are questioning why the mother is there at all given Fatima's testimony. Without the back story not sure what the verdict will be.

 

[Melt71]

Boy Fatima is so lucky that this went down in the US...if they had gotten on a plane and went to Iraq I think she would be dead.

Yes indeed. Dealing with forced marriage cases is a huge part of my job and I very recently spent a number of weeks in Iraq. Once these young people - it's not only women - are in Iraq it's almost impossible to extract them if they are under 18 as both parents consent is required.

Once they are 18yo it becomes a teensy bit easier because women can legally depart Iraq on their own when they are adults, if they have a passport. (Different to some other regional countries, like Lebanon, where any male family member can place a travel ban on a female family member.)

Despite being able to legally depart once they are 18yo, there are still huge challenges to seeking help. Even if they speak fluent Arabic (or Kurdish in the north), most of the young people in these cases are not culturally competent to negotiate day to day Iraq. Working out who is safe to confide in, formulating an escape plan, finding shelters, negotiating local transport systems. Families take away their phones, their Iraqi ID cards and foreign passports. They often have no access to money and families will deliberately isolate them from any same-age peers in Iraq so they don't have anyone to confide in locally. When marriage is imminent family members may supervise them 24/7. And sadly most of these cases are not in Baghdad (or Erbil in the north) where there are embassies and foreign aid programs that can offer assistance. It's such a complicated group of cases to work on.

 

[dlsully62]

Listened to a bit of court tv commentary and I am now concerned this is overcharged as so many are. I don't think they can prove what was in father or mother's heads in terms of killing their daughter. I started with conversation in arabic and escalated. It seems it is more "assault". With limited knowledge of the impending arranged marriage and trip to Iraq and "honor killing". Just because daughter felt lilke he was trying to kill her does not make it so. They are questioning why the mother is there at all given Fatima's testimony. Without the back story not sure what the verdict will be.

I also tend to think this is a case of "overcharge". Watching the video is also curious. It does seem to appear that the boyfriend knocked dad and dau. took the ground... IMO

 

[Kalanit]

Listened to a bit of court tv commentary and I am now concerned this is overcharged as so many are. I don't think they can prove what was in father or mother's heads in terms of killing their daughter. I started with conversation in arabic and escalated. It seems it is more "assault". With limited knowledge of the impending arranged marriage and trip to Iraq and "honor killing". Just because daughter felt lilke he was trying to kill her does not make it so. They are questioning why the mother is there at all given Fatima's testimony. Without the back story not sure what the verdict will be.

From what I understand, the mother is there because she ties the whole picture together, having been the one to confront the boyfriend earlier at the school (resulting in the order of protection). It corroborates the account/validates the real concerns of Fatima to the counselors rather than them just being able to chalk up up to teenage drama. This was a cooperative effort of domestic violence against their daughter. At least that is how I see the State's case.
*My opinion.

Interesting note about strangulation in Washington:

Finding—2007 c 79: "The legislature finds that assault by strangulation may result in immobilization of a victim, may cause a loss of consciousness, injury, or even death, and has been a factor in a significant number of domestic violence related assaults and fatalities. While not limited to acts of assault against an intimate partner, assault by strangulation is often knowingly inflicted upon an intimate partner with the intent to commit physical injury, or substantial or great bodily harm. Strangulation is one of the most lethal forms of domestic violence. The particular cruelty of this offense and its potential effects upon a victim both physically and psychologically, merit its categorization as a ranked felony offense under chapter 9A.36 RCW." [ 2007 c 79 s 1]

RCW 9a.36.021: Assault in the second degree.

app.leg.wa.gov

Edited a couple times: I forgot he was charged with 1st degree assault not second degree; but since this specific note on strangulation is found under second degree I'm choosing to leave it in place just because I think it's important.

 

[turaj]

Not too sure here with the two defendants and one case....can one be found guilty and one not or guilty on different charges. It seems that Mrs. Ali's attorney is pointing the finger at Mr. Ali and just trying to get his client off. Would they have done better to seperate the cases? Are all these attorneys public defenders? I know nothing about the family other than they have another daughter and some brothers. No clue what the father does for a living and his financial status.

 

[arielilane]

I would use the term "narcissistic parents’ killing" rather than “honor killing” - there is no honor in murder/attempt murder. Just saying

Honor killing | Causes, Consequences & Solutions | Britannica

Honor killing, most often, the murder of a woman or girl by male family members. The killers justify their actions by claiming that the victim has brought dishonor upon the family name or prestige. In patriarchal societies, the activities of girls and women are closely monitored. The maintenance of

www.britannica.com

 

[arielilane]

Jul 16

Victim: 'I Knew My Dad Was Choking Me... I Saw Darkness'​

 

[LAborn]

Listened to a bit of court tv commentary and I am now concerned this is overcharged as so many are. I don't think they can prove what was in father or mother's heads in terms of killing their daughter. I started with conversation in arabic and escalated. It seems it is more "assault". With limited knowledge of the impending arranged marriage and trip to Iraq and "honor killing". Just because daughter felt lilke he was trying to kill her does not make it so. They are questioning why the mother is there at all given Fatima's testimony. Without the back story not sure what the verdict will be.

It's attempted murder. If you watch the video you can see the choke hold, and Fatima going from trying to get away, to limp. His choke hold was not lessened and you could see his face (he literally looked like a pitbull with a locked jaw on its victim)--no way this is assault or something that escalated. The only reason Fatima isn't dead is because of Isaiah and the Army vet passing by who intervened. And mother had the same intention. As soon as Fatima was free she went after her neck. The back story has already been given, they didn't like the boyfriend, the boyfriend's father has a restraining order against mom because she's been threatening them. Even without the arranged marriage piece, I suspect the jury will do the right thing.

Also he punched Isaiah in the face that day, he should be charged with assault for that too.

 

[LAborn]

Why is the prosecutor talking about this serious subject with such a flippant tone? I don't get it. What happened to lawyers using that to their advantage? The witness is talking about strangulation and she's saying, "okay" like they're talking about the weather. The jury picks up on that. And why isn't she repeating their answers and emphasizing certain points as not to be missed by the jury?

 

[Melt71]

The father and mother are interesting to watch in court. Zero emotion. The camera is most often on the father and as he looks at his daughter and the boy he looks to me like he is ready to go after both of them again.

I imagine the lack of emotion is at the direction of the lawyer. It's very hard to have clients from non-western backgrounds in court; emotion is often expressed differently in other cultures. For example in my husband's culture people giggle when discussing traumatic events and will sometimes smile broadly at the most traumatic, dreadful news. Even with awareness of these cultural differences, it can still feel like being slapped with a cold fish when it happens! I bet the lawyer doesn't want Mr/Mrs America on the jury to pick up any body language or emotion that they might [negatively] misinterpret.

 

[Sundog]

Not too sure here with the two defendants and one case....can one be found guilty and one not or guilty on different charges. It seems that Mrs. Ali's attorney is pointing the finger at Mr. Ali and just trying to get his client off. Would they have done better to seperate the cases? Are all these attorneys public defenders? I know nothing about the family other than they have another daughter and some brothers. No clue what the father does for a living and his financial status.

FA has three older sisters and two younger brothers. It seems that only one older sister lives in the family home here in the U.S.

I, too, wonder if Mr. Ali has a public defender, I haven't seen anything in MSM indicating what he does for a living. Or Mrs. Ali.

 

[seasideForest]

I would use the term "narcissistic parents’ killing" rather than “honor killing” - there is no honor in murder/attempt murder. Just saying

Of course there's no honour in 'honour killing', that's why I and others put it in inverted commas, but nonetheless 'honour killing' or 'honour violence' denotes a specific kind of (attempted) murder and violence. If you listen to the Honor Violence training video linked below, you get a good sense of what it is. They do a detailed comparison between Domestic Violence and Honour Violence. The difference is not just that DV is committed by (ex-)spouse, (ex-)boyfriend, (ex-)partner! The training video opened my eyes too. I'd say they call a spade a spade, and that's good imho.

MOO

This is training that the AHA Foundation gives to social workers, educators, shelters and LE regarding honor violence and forced marriages. Toward the end of the presentation they give the real life examples of daughters from Afhanistan and Iraq who were ultimately murdered by their families, with family members stalking the victims even after they had left home, in one case.

Read/watch this Honor Violence training video and weep. This is what Fatima Ali is up against.

Trainings for Professionals Encountering Female Genital Mutilation, Forced Marriage and Honor Violence - AHA Foundation

Trainings for Professionals Encountering Female Genital Mutilation (FGM), Forced Marriage and Honor Violence. AHA Foundation provides both in-person and online training and education for law enforcement, educators, shelters, service providers, and other.

www.theahafoundation.org

 

[CityKid]

I would use the term "narcissistic parents’ killing" rather than “honor killing” - there is no honor in murder/attempt murder. Just saying

Honor killing | Causes, Consequences & Solutions | Britannica

Honor killing, most often, the murder of a woman or girl by male family members. The killers justify their actions by claiming that the victim has brought dishonor upon the family name or prestige. In patriarchal societies, the activities of girls and women are closely monitored. The maintenance of

www.britannica.com

But honor killings are about more than narcissistic parents. They often involve members of an extended family or village.

 

[turaj]

FA has three older sisters and two younger brothers. It seems that only one older sister lives in the family home here in the U.S.

I, too, wonder if Mr. Ali has a public defender, I haven't seen anything in MSM indicating what he does for a living. Or Mrs. Ali.

Mrs. Ali looks like she would be afraid of Mr. Ali.

 

[turaj]

FA has three older sisters and two younger brothers. It seems that only one older sister lives in the family home here in the U.S.

I, too, wonder if Mr. Ali has a public defender, I haven't seen anything in MSM indicating what he does for a living. Or Mrs. Ali.

Wow three other sisters. I have to wonder how that is going ? The parents given that Mrs. Ali is only 40 must have started family when she was very very young. Probably arranged too. I have so many questions about the parents but just nothing online about their lives prior to this event.