NOT GUILTY WA - Parents try to kidnap daughter over forced marriage - November 3, 2024 (NG of attempted murder; Guilty of lesser charges)

  • #61
  • #62
I saw saw reply of when Mrs. Ali was served with the order keeping away from Isiah and his family. Just 8 days prior to the event. It was Mrs. Ali and daughter living there( I assume) who was translating. I am getting a better picture of just how involved she was in this.
 
  • #63
I saw saw reply of when Mrs. Ali was served with the order keeping away from Isiah and his family. Just 8 days prior to the event. It was Mrs. Ali and daughter living there( I assume) who was translating. I am getting a better picture of just how involved she was in this.
I just saw the same clip. It was hard to see the closed caption, but did the mother act like she thought it was against Isaiah's family and not against her? Or that he was from the school? They are good at appearing dumbfounded, both mother and daughter.
 
  • #64
I just saw the same clip. It was hard to see the closed caption, but did the mother act like she thought it was against Isaiah's family and not against her? Or that he was from the school? They are good at appearing dumbfounded, both mother and daughter.
I could not really get what she was asking. The daughter at one point thought it was an order against Fatima. Bottom line it was violated big time with video of mother right there at the school. I can't get over the school sending her to the shelter but not providing transportation to get there. Clearly had all those people not stepped in Fatima would have been dead or at best very injured.
 
  • #65
Wow three other sisters. I have to wonder how that is going ? The parents given that Mrs. Ali is only 40 must have started family when she was very very young. Probably arranged too. I have so many questions about the parents but just nothing online about their lives prior to this event.

Probably arranged, this is common in many cultures and across Iraq.

Arranged marriage is not the same as what Fatima was facing, which is forced marriage. Arranged marriage is organised between families or groups with the consent of those who are marrying. The two are entirely different. I actually need to send a report to the Mods to have the title of this thread amended as it's misleading.
 
  • #66
Probably arranged, this is common in many cultures and across Iraq.

Arranged marriage is not the same as what Fatima was facing, which is forced marriage. Arranged marriage is organised between families or groups with the consent of those who are marrying. The two are entirely different. I actually need to send a report to the Mods to have the title of this thread amended as it's misleading.
Agree, Melt. I find that in the West those things are often confused and “arranged marriage” always has connotations of someone being forced to marry someone they don’t like. Sadly, that’s the way it always seems to be presented by Hollywood.

“Arranged marriages” are often some of the longest lasting and happiest, due to the specific intent usually involved by family attempting to look for compatibility between the couples.

“Forced marriage” is entirely different and has no place in civilized society.
 
  • #67
Agree, Melt. I find that in the West those things are often confused and “arranged marriage” always has connotations of someone being forced to marry someone they don’t like. Sadly, that’s the way it always seems to be presented by Hollywood.

“Arranged marriages” are often some of the longest lasting and happiest, due to the specific intent usually involved by family attempting to look for compatibility between the couples.

“Forced marriage” is entirely different and has no place in civilized society.
I agree that we should distinguish between "arranged marriages" and "forced marriages" but do you have a link to any data regarding your statement about the longevity of arranged marriages compared to non-arranged marriages? Thanks in advance.
 
  • #68
I agree that we should distinguish between "arranged marriages" and "forced marriages" but do you have a link to any data regarding your statement about the longevity of arranged marriages compared to non-arranged marriages? Thanks in advance.
Frankly, I would find it odd to marry by committee. And is there no belief in chemistry and physical attraction?
 
  • #69
  • #70
I agree that we should distinguish between "arranged marriages" and "forced marriages" but do you have a link to any data regarding your statement about the longevity of arranged marriages compared to non-arranged marriages? Thanks in advance.
Might be semantics, I acknowledge that I have zero knowledge on the subject but an arranged marriage can also be a forced marriage, once the deal (arrangement) is done between the families there is no choice for the bride and groom which makes it forced, there is nothing they can do to avoid it
 
  • #71
An interesting perspective on "arranged" marriages, which other posters have made clear is not the same as "forced marriage."

 
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  • #72
Might be semantics, I acknowledge that I have zero knowledge on the subject but an arranged marriage can also be a forced marriage, once the deal (arrangement) is done between the families there is no choice for the bride and groom which makes it forced, there is nothing they can do to avoid it
Exactly. Not semantics imo.
 
  • #73
I agree that we should distinguish between "arranged marriages" and "forced marriages" but do you have a link to any data regarding your statement about the longevity of arranged marriages compared to non-arranged marriages? Thanks in advance.
I don’t have a link right now, but I can look for one in a bit. However, here is a bit of perspective, but please understand this is my thinking and experience. I’ve never been in an arranged marriage.

I was married in the way that is commonplace these days in the West: I met a guy, we had “chemistry”, and I thought we had a lot in common, values-wise. However, it didn’t last long, and I eventually came to find out that the things that bound us together were, after all, pretty shallow and fleeting.

I was single for quite a few years, then met a man in an online venue (a dating app) which I’d describe as “values based”. We struck up a conversation and were soon talking on the phone for several hours every night. We clicked in all the most important things, mainly what I’d describe as “worldview”, as well as the fact that we seemed to have a fair amount of compatibility. When we finally met in person, after quite a few weeks, I really felt it would just be a “confirmation”, which it was. We were in love and had tons of attraction. I always thought that it must be a bit similar to what an arranged marriage is like, and the opposite of what the “normal” way of finding a spouse in the West is: The “normal” way is to see someone in person, sparks fly, and then you get to know each other on a deeper level. Hopefully, things work out on the “deeper level”, because you’re often already quite attached to the person. Meeting the way we did, it’s sort of the opposite: you get to know the person in a more meaningful way first, then the physical attraction builds.

Again, this wasn’t an arranged marriage, but I’ve always thought that it must be similar.

And then there’s this: As I got older, and spent much of my “prime of life” pining for an intimate relationship (I don’t just mean physical, but an intimate relationship in every aspect of the word) I found myself wondering why parents don’t often involve themselves anymore with helping their children find their, what used to be called “vocation”, anymore. These days, you’re sort of just turned out to find by happenstance the partner of your life. The one you’ll depend on throughout life; who’d (hopefully) give their life for you. Who you’ll raise children with, grow old with, and be there through the thick and thin of the joys and traumas of life. Who may need to help take care of your own parents in their old age.

In our case, it’s certainly worked out. I get teased all the time because I LOVE being with my husband (I’m crazy about him) and we help each other through life. A few years ago we had to literally drop our life, our house, etc., and move to another state to take care of his mother. Now, he’s helping take care of my father. We just “do what we have to do”. Right now, I’m taking care of him and in several weeks, he’ll be taking care of me as I undergo a major surgery.

I know if this is WAY more than what you asked about, but I just see some parallels with arranged marriages. Forced marriage: NEVER.
 
  • #74
Might be semantics, I acknowledge that I have zero knowledge on the subject but an arranged marriage can also be a forced marriage, once the deal (arrangement) is done between the families there is no choice for the bride and groom which makes it forced, there is nothing they can do to avoid it

Exactly. Not semantics imo.

In many cultures arranged marriages are the norm; it is a western cultural connotation that some kind of magical attraction is required between couples. Arranged marriages in my experiences are generally very respectful and often arranged with input from the two people who are marrying. Of course that's not always the case - in any culture there are always outliers to the norm.

Like our own culture, there are always people who do not have their children's best interests at heart, and do not consider their wishes. If those being married express that the union is not wanted, and if the family proceed without their consent, then it becomes a forced marriage.

Just to make it clear, the transition from arranged to forced is demarcated by the expression that the planned union is without consent. The other factors that might make it one or the other (coercion or lack thereof, physical force or lack thereof, acceptance of a proposed partner or not) are seen as contributing factors but not necessarily defining ones.
 
  • #75
In many cultures arranged marriages are the norm; it is a western cultural connotation that some kind of magical attraction is required between couples. Arranged marriages in my experiences are generally very respectful and often arranged with input from the two people who are marrying. Of course that's not always the case - in any culture there are always outliers to the norm.

Like our own culture, there are always people who do not have their children's best interests at heart, and do not consider their wishes. If those being married express that the union is not wanted, and if the family proceed without their consent, then it becomes a forced marriage.

Just to make it clear, the transition from arranged to forced is demarcated by the expression that the planned union is without consent. The other factors that might make it one or the other (coercion or lack thereof, physical force or lack thereof, acceptance of a proposed partner or not) are seen as contributing factors but not necessarily defining ones.
Just as I can't conceive of arranged marriage, you apparently can't understand the notion of chemistry and attraction (based on what you wrote). It's fine if you don't understand, but please resist calling it "some kind of magical attraction" as if it's not real. It's the same as when we gravitate toward one person over another for friendship, just in the romantic realm. Frankly, there are many aspects of "arranged" and "forced" marriage that westerners find offensive, especially for women, but I'm refraining from making those arguments as not to offend those who believe in it. Thanks.
 
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  • #76
I agree that we should distinguish between "arranged marriages" and "forced marriages" but do you have a link to any data regarding your statement about the longevity of arranged marriages compared to non-arranged marriages? Thanks in advance.
MOO. I'm interested in the correlation between reported happiness and longevity in arranged marriages and social/financial/parental pressure considerations re: why someone would stay married despite being unhappy. In many places where arranged marriages are more common, divorce is a stigma and women are less able to support themselves.
 
  • #77
In many cultures arranged marriages are the norm; it is a western cultural connotation that some kind of magical attraction is required between couples. Arranged marriages in my experiences are generally very respectful and often arranged with input from the two people who are marrying. Of course that's not always the case - in any culture there are always outliers to the norm.

Like our own culture, there are always people who do not have their children's best interests at heart, and do not consider their wishes. If those being married express that the union is not wanted, and if the family proceed without their consent, then it becomes a forced marriage.

Just to make it clear, the transition from arranged to forced is demarcated by the expression that the planned union is without consent. The other factors that might make it one or the other (coercion or lack thereof, physical force or lack thereof, acceptance of a proposed partner or not) are seen as contributing factors but not necessarily defining ones.
I don't see what any of this has to do with this case, as the victim is clearly not a member of a culture that espouses either forced or arranged marriage.
*My opinion.
 
  • #78
I don't see what any of this has to do with this case, as the victim is clearly not a member of a culture that espouses either forced or arranged marriage.
*My opinion.
The victim’s parents are Iraqis. Arranged and forced marriages are definitely espoused and carried out in their culture. Fact, not opinion. The victim apparently thought that she would be forced to marry someone in Iraq.

Or am I misunderstanding your point?


In general, people in Iraq have little opportunity to make their own choices with regard to marriage. Refusing to marry a man chosen by the family is one of the reasons why honour crimes are perpetrated.
 
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  • #79
Frankly, I would find it odd to marry by committee. And is there no belief in chemistry and physical attraction?
It’s no different than going to a matchmaker, if it’s done correctly.

My friend had an arranged marriage. Her parents played matchmaker and when Niki clicked with one of the introductions they dated. Eventually Niki said yes.

This is a modern Pakistani woman, living in Canada and a highly respected lawyer. Her husband is an Accountant. Three kids and married for 30 years.

If it’s done right with consent it’s different.

FORCED Marriage is not arranged.
 
  • #80
It’s no different than going to a matchmaker, if it’s done correctly.

My friend had an arranged marriage. Her parents played matchmaker and when Niki clicked with one of the introductions they dated. Eventually Niki said yes.

This is a modern Pakistani woman, living in Canada and a highly respected lawyer. Her husband is an Accountant. Three kids and married for 30 years.

If it’s done right with consent it’s different.

FORCED Marriage is not arranged.
I'm just giving my opinion, which I'm entitled to and sticking with.
 

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