WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #8

[sherlockh]

I don't even know what that means. Could you elaborate?

Sorry, I should have put IMO there. So IMO you need a certain setting and technique to be able to coerce someone. Usually, when I read about coerced confessions it involves 1 interrogator or 2 (playing bad cop/good cop is one of the techniques often used). Having distractions (many people in a room, people walking in and out) doesn't fit in that scenario.

 

[claudicici]

Which of Amanda's and Rudy's writings are you comparing?

the diaries...

 

[SMK]

Isn't that common when people rely on family driven media coverage about a trial held in a foreign country in a foreign language?

Maybe so-- but for me, there had not been much of a problem believing Mignini---speaking only for myself here regarding doubts, it is the thought that Hendry cannot be refuted. If someone could clearly show me where he is wrong, I would not be so unsettled.

 

[SMK]

He was found in a nursery school but there were no signs of any break-in. A stolen kitchen knife was found in his backpack. He did not brandish a knife there. That he stolen a knife there indicates he didn't have a knife of himself IMO. He had stolen property from a law office, but no proof of him actually breaking in there and being the thief. Then there is Tramontano who claimed RG broke in and brandished a knife. He is the only one claiming RG brandished a knife. Judge Micheli didn't find Tramontano very credible. Judge Massei mentions the testimony of Tramontano but he seems rather critical of his identification (quote: the identification of Rudy was expressed only by the phrase "I believe I recognize him"). Massei doesn't further elaborate about the knife part. He focuses more on the differences of breaking in. That is it

It is a fact, though, isn't it, that Guede had been caught with stolen property and a knife in his backpack? It does seem to cast light on him as being capable of being the lone wolf in this case?:waitasec:

 

[SMK]

How many times was Amanda arrested? Rudy was caught in germany because his fingerprints were on file from a previous arrest for stolen goods. How many breaking and enterings does Amanda have? We know of at least two for Rudy. Just because he was never convicted doesn't mean very much.

Yes, Amanda has a noise violation ticket. I would hope everyone here can differentiate the gravity of the situations Rudy was involved in versus Amanda.

I had read that Guede had served as a police informant (for drug stings) and that this is the reason why he was not arrested, notwithstanding the break ins, stolen goods, knife, etc. This would certainly explain a LOT, and would give Guede a sense of power and freedom to continue on. Is this info about his being an informant true? If this was "internet gossip", it nonetheless may contain the truth: Police tend to be lenient with their informants, often with disastrous consequences. In any case, if THIS is why he has no criminal record , it only strengthens the idea of him as a lone wolf.

 

[SMK]

An idea that had once occurred to me, maybe best left unsaid here, but as it kept breaking into my thoughts, might be an intuition with some validity: In any case, it is speculation only. The idea that AK and RS may have felt responsible and sheepish the morning the postal police arrived, if they had previously - idly or while intoxicated - made the suggestion to Guede that he "break in" to the cottage to get Meredith's money as noone was home. There are some college-age young people who will say or do things without thinking, which later show to border on criminal behavior (unknown to them at the time, and I can even recall some recklessness from my own youth, where I had NO bad intentions, but only by the grace of God did things not escalate from stupid idle things I said). I would call this poor means/end reasoning and poor grasp of cause and effect. This scenario presupposes that they may have known Guede superficially perhaps through the purchase of pot; also presupposes that the reports the Guede was desparate for rent $$$ are true. They may have made the suggestion in a foolish or silly moment. Then, when they saw the unspeakable horror of what occurred , went to the other extreme and felt fully responsible and fully implicated - being too young and inexperienced to realize that while they had opened the door to the break in, they were in no real way responsible for the sexual assault and murder. (Did not know Meredith would surprise Guede early, and in no way wished her any harm)... If this speculation is out of place here, please forgive it---but this thought has been a haunting one for me. It would mean that it is not fully accident what has happened to them or that Mignini found them to be suspicious - and yet it would still reveal that the consequences are too extreme and thus unjust. Seeing their parents rush to their defense, the shame of admitting that initially their own words got the ball rolling, and the taint of of it all, was unthinkable as something to be admitted....Ah, welll, guess this is messy ruminating, bleh, but wonder if it contains any truth? :waitasec: I know it is unwise to speculate, but of course Mignini himself has speculated a scenario, which appears in the Massei Report. Sorry again for such rambling, perhaps I only needed to set it down in words.....

 

[SMK]

He was found in a nursery school but there were no signs of any break-in. A stolen kitchen knife was found in his backpack. (posted by Sherlockh)--
But really, what place did he have in a nursery school? and why the knife? This man is suspicious . His intentions are not good. A lone wolf on the loose, is what he appears.

 

[sherlockh]

He was found in a nursery school but there were no signs of any break-in. A stolen kitchen knife was found in his backpack. (posted by Sherlockh)--
But really, what place did he have in a nursery school? and why the knife? This man is suspicious . His intentions are not good. A lone wolf on the loose, is what he appears.

I simply posted the facts that came out of the trial, whereas you mentioned him having 'a history of burglary, smashing windows, brandishing knives'. That is not true. Of course, I am also suspicious of him being a burglar but that is not the same. Besides that, if you are interested in the outcome of the appeals then don't forget this isn't even an issue anymore as it was concluded that the break in was staged.

 

[dgfred]

Could you be more specific on which piece you're referring to? The latest one is just a link to Rudy's sentencing report. Is that what you mean?

Sure is: Supreme Court Final Report on RG.

Please read were it links to 'this post'.

Excellent analysis IMO of the Report in 5 post by TJMK Main Posters/Brian S(3), and Nicki. Starts with "80,000 Pound Gorilla".

*No rumors, straight from the report analysis.

 

[SMK]

I simply posted the facts that came out of the trial, whereas you mentioned him having 'a history of burglary, smashing windows, brandishing knives'. That is not true. Of course, I am also suspicious of him being a burglar but that is not the same. Besides that, if you are interested in the outcome of the appeals then don't forget this isn't even an issue anymore as it was concluded that the break in was staged.

Yes, I am interested in the outcome of the appeal process. OK, I suppose this means that the defense cannot raise the idea that the break in was not staged, then? I wonder if the appeal is a serious review, or a formality, merely---with the conviction standing being a foregone conclusion?:waitasec: addendum: I wish I had the time to be more properly versed on all the details of the case...

 

[minazoe]

An idea that had once occurred to me, maybe best left unsaid here, but as it kept breaking into my thoughts, might be an intuition with some validity: In any case, it is speculation only. The idea that AK and RS may have felt responsible and sheepish the morning the postal police arrived, if they had previously - idly or while intoxicated - made the suggestion to Guede that he "break in" to the cottage to get Meredith's money as noone was home. There are some college-age young people who will say or do things without thinking, which later show to border on criminal behavior (unknown to them at the time, and I can even recall some recklessness from my own youth, where I had NO bad intentions, but only by the grace of God did things not escalate from stupid idle things I said). I would call this poor means/end reasoning and poor grasp of cause and effect. This scenario presupposes that they may have known Guede superficially perhaps through the purchase of pot; also presupposes that the reports the Guede was desparate for rent $$$ are true. They may have made the suggestion in a foolish or silly moment. Then, when they saw the unspeakable horror of what occurred , went to the other extreme and felt fully responsible and fully implicated - being too young and inexperienced to realize that while they had opened the door to the break in, they were in no real way responsible for the sexual assault and murder. (Did not know Meredith would surprise Guede early, and in no way wished her any harm)... If this speculation is out of place here, please forgive it---but this thought has been a haunting one for me. It would mean that it is not fully accident what has happened to them or that Mignini found them to be suspicious - and yet it would still reveal that the consequences are too extreme and thus unjust. Seeing their parents rush to their defense, the shame of admitting that initially their own words got the ball rolling, and the taint of of it all, was unthinkable as something to be admitted....Ah, welll, guess this is messy ruminating, bleh, but wonder if it contains any truth? :waitasec: I know it is unwise to speculate, but of course Mignini himself has speculated a scenario, which appears in the Massei Report. Sorry again for such rambling, perhaps I only needed to set it down in words.....

you know, I too had an alternate theroy..not so different really...In my theroy, Amanda left RS's place and went to the apartment for some reason and heard screaming and saw a black man maybe his head or arms or from behind..or a voice with a particular accent.

so now she is at the scene...I think she may have been doing other drugs besides mary jo...possibly ecstasy or acid/mushrooms.

this could account for her identifying the wrong perp in her testimony.

she may have been convinced it was her boss at the bar , due to some previous situations with her boss/Meridith having to due with her bosses conduct and women.

I think that she may have been coming off drugs or still high when she was questioned. I think it would explain her confusion and lack of gravity.

perhaps she thought Meridith was just having loud sex...and didn't want to embarass her by being front and center when someone came out of the bathroom or bedroom.

what if the sex was consensual and the robbery happened later? what if the broken window happened because something was thrown during a struggle..just because a window is broken from the inside does not mean someone tried to "stage" a robbery.

I can see RS and AK not wanting to cop to being at the scene..or doing psycotropic drugs....

tthe drugs would also account for the trippy wandering aftermath of the murder with RS and AK wandering around looking for underwear and the whole spacey sleepless sommersault memeory impaired mess.

JMO

 

[SMK]

you know, I too had an alternate theroy..not so different really...In my theroy, Amanda left RS's place and went to the apartment for some reason and heard screaming and saw a black man maybe his head or arms or from behind..or a voice with a particular accent.

so now she is at the scene...I think she may have been doing other drugs besides mary jo...possibly ecstasy or acid/mushrooms.

this could account for her identifying the wrong perp in her testimony.

she may have been convinced it was her boss at the bar , due to some previous situations with her boss/Meridith having to due with her bosses conduct and women.

I think that she may have been coming off drugs or still high when she was questioned. I think it would explain her confusion and lack of gravity.

perhaps she thought Meridith was just having loud sex...and didn't want to embarass her by being front and center when someone came out of the bathroom or bedroom.

what if the sex was consensual and the robbery happened later? what if the broken window happened because something was thrown during a struggle..just because a window is broken from the inside does not mean someone tried to "stage" a robbery.

I can see RS and AK not wanting to cop to being at the scene..or doing psycotropic drugs....

tthe drugs would also account for the trippy wandering aftermath of the murder with RS and AK wandering around looking for underwear and the whole spacey sleepless sommersault memeory impaired mess.

JMO

Thanks, and YES, such possible alternative scenarios as ours are at least psychologically plausible and interesting. Excessive drug use, or being connected with a petty criminal, can seem to the immature mind - perhaps also tainted with some common narcissism - something that cannot be admitted to because it would tarnish the parental view of them as scholastic achievers and hard workers. In this sense, AK might continue to lie, even when the truth would save her neck. If any of what you and I have speculated is true, then this is a very convoluted tragedy all around.

 

[SMK]

"the drugs would also account for the trippy wandering aftermath of the murder with RS and AK wandering around looking for underwear and the whole spacey sleepless sommersault memeory impaired mess."~minazoe
Yes, this thought had occurred to me as well: That AK and RS being into drugs - perhaps from alienation and trauma which had gone unnoticed by busy parents - made them the TYPE ripe for a man like Mignini to be (partly rightly) suspicious of. Of course, this is at the psychological end of the speculation spectrum---yet, if true, would have technical implications as well..........

 

[minazoe]

drug use doesn't have to stem from uninvolved parents , alienation or trauma....alot of kids do these drugs because it's fun.

drugs like coke or heroin are one thing...but acid..ecstacy and shrooms are more recreational and not usually habitual.

IMO

 

[SMK]

drug use doesn't have to stem from uninvolved parents , alienation or trauma....alot of kids do these drugs because it's fun.

drugs like coke or heroin are one thing...but acid..ecstacy and shrooms are more recreational and not usually habitual.

IMO

Point taken.

 

[SMK]

Getting back to the basic facts of the appeal/review, I understand, then, that this is just a partial appeal granted, to review some dna and question witnesses for the defense and the prosecution? And not a total counter-argument to the conviction? If so, then it seems less hopeful for the overturning of the conviction of AK and RS. I wish this were not so, because to me, there are far too many questions. But as others say, if the staged break-in theory was already upheld, and the idea that Guede did NOT act alone, then it does not seem promising.

 

[SMK]

addendum: and then it would also appear that the MSM headlines about "huge" developments and "fresh hope" may be an exaggeration or misinterpretation???:waitasec:

 

[SMK]

Of course one must take what Knox's young sister says with a grain of salt. But I am wondering if this really was infact a "game changer" as CBS News seems to be reporting? In any case, reading this account does make one think the conviction could very well be overturned. . . :waitasec:


Testimony a game-changer in Amanda Knox's favor?
Her sister says key witness "blew" case vs. Amanda; Legal expert calls the testimony "significant loss" for prosecution

(CBS News) Testimony in Amanda Knox's appeal of her murder conviction in Italy may be a game-changer in favor of the college student from Seattle, an expert and Knox's sister say, and her sister says it left her thinking Amanda would be coming home soon.
Knox, now 23, and ex-boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito were convicted last year of murder and sexual assault in the 2007 death of Briton Meredith Kercher, with whom Knox shared a cottage in Perugia while attending college. Knox and Sollecito were sentenced to 26 and 25 years in prison, respectively.

Knox and Sollecito have always denied wrongdoing, insisting they weren't at the cottage the night Kercher was killed, but were at Sollecito's house.

On Saturday, key prosecution eyewitness, Antonio Curatolo, who'd said he saw Knox near the crime scene the night of the murder, admitted to heroin addiction and confused crucial details from the night of the murder, including dates.

"He basically blew the whole prosecution's case right then and there," Knox's sister, Deanna Knox, told "Early Show" co-anchor Chris Wragge. "He got his dates mixed up. He said he was on drugs at the time. He was recalling that people were in costumes on Halloween, which was actually the day after. So he pretty much blew every credibility that he had."

Asked if that was a game-changer, Deanna replied, "Yeah, it really was. It was one of those moments for me where I was like, 'Wow, my sister could really be out soon!' Which is really exciting. And I know our lawyers were happy. And our family was happy."

Deanna conceded that Amanda is "still really nervous about the appeals process. She thought that she should have been out the first time (at the conclusion of her trial). So she's a little nervous still, that they're not gonna to get it quite right. But she seems confident. She's confident in her innocence, and she was just really happy to see her family. So it was nice to see her that way."

CBS News legal analyst Jack concurred that the testimony could be a game-changer, pointing out, "You've got to remember the system is very different over there. Her appeal is essentially a second trial, new jurors, new judges, and the conviction was based on circumstantial evidence. You know, direct evidence is either you confess to a crime or somebody says, 'I saw them committing the killing.' Circumstantial is bits and pieces that you put together to form a picture. And here, the first time around, the picture was enough for her to be convicted. But they're starting to chip away at that picture here. And significantly."

Curatolo, Wragge noted, has been a key witness in a number of different murder trials. "It looks like he's been kind of there for the prosecution on a number of different times. How did they not know that he would..."

"That's a tough question to answer," Ford said, "because ... this time around, they've challenged him that he had the wrong date, he had wrong details, and admitted to being a heroin addict at the time. You know what? As a prosecutor, I had to rely on some pretty shaky witnesses sometimes. I don't think I ever had somebody such as this.

"When you take away a so-called eyewitness like that, that's a significant loss for the prosecution."

Ford also observed that, "The court ordered that (new forensic tests on evidence) be done by independent experts. Not by the prosecutors or defense. And (those experts reportedly) raising questions whether there's even nearly enough evidence, DNA evidence on this knife blade (that was the alleged murder weapon) to point to Amanda Knox. ... If you pull that out of the case, if you pull the eyewitness out of the case -- or at least raise significant questions about the two of them -- you've put them in a situation now where Amanda Knox -- if I'm her attorney, I'm a lot more confident now that she might be coming home."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/28/earlyshow/main20047813.shtml

 

[sherlockh]

Getting back to the basic facts of the appeal/review, I understand, then, that this is just a partial appeal granted, to review some dna and question witnesses for the defense and the prosecution? And not a total counter-argument to the conviction? If so, then it seems less hopeful for the overturning of the conviction of AK and RS. I wish this were not so, because to me, there are far too many questions. But as others say, if the staged break-in theory was already upheld, and the idea that Guede did NOT act alone, then it does not seem promising.

I will correct myself that nothing was upheld yet, as nothing has been concluded by the appeals yet. So maybe there is hope

 

[SMK]

I will correct myself that nothing was upheld yet, as nothing has been concluded by the appeals yet. So maybe there is hope

thanks, yes, we shall have to see. So this appeal will conclude in May, and if the conviction is upheld, there is one more appeal? Just trying to get it all straight in my head.....:crazy: