WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #8

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  • #1,001
I don't doubt your word on Italian law (and I certainly don't claim to be an expert on it). But how is such a law enforced?

AK didn't even claim to be in the same room when she heard a scream. Are you saying that everyone within earshot was also guilty of murder unless he or she ran directly toward the scream and fought off the attacker? I'm sure you aren't. So how does AK become guilty of murder based on her statement?
Yes, I believe that makes her guilty as well if she stand by let her roommate be murdered, not even call the police or an ambulance and then covers it up and lies about it to the police. Maybe she is then guilty to a lesser extend but not totally sure about that. I am certainly not an expert in Italian law so pls don't take my word for it :)
 
  • #1,002
No, but there are other sources that say this first "appeal" is different from an appeal in the U.S., that in essence the court reviews ALL evidence and comes to a fresh conclusion taking all evidence into consideration (which is why defendants are considered really "convicted" until after the first appeal).

But there are apparent experts who seem to see it as otto does. (I.e., otto has good reason for his opinion; he didn't invent it himself.)

So at this point I have no idea what is the truth.
I think that is right. The appeal is basically a new trial with new judges and prosecutors. Only a lot of the evidence will have no new input so it is possible they come to the same conclusions but like I said before, nothing is sure till it is sure :)
 
  • #1,003
Yes, I believe that makes her guilty as well if she stand by let her roommate be murdered, not even call the police or an ambulance and then covers it up and lies about it to the police. Maybe she is then guilty to a lesser extend but not totally sure about that. I am certainly not an expert in Italian law so pls don't take my word for it :)

Maybe it's the alleged cover-up that ties her to the murder; perhaps that is the felony that, while not ongoing at the time of the murder, makes this a felony-murder-type case. That seems more manageable for LE than prosecuting people for ignoring screams.

(When I lived in NYC, there were homeless people screaming in the streets nearly everyday. I realized I'd lived there too long when I walked right by a man screaming for help and then walked another block before I realized what he was shouting. I went back, of course, only to find another schizophrenic newly released from some institution, but nonetheless, I thought I was getting too inured. I love New York, but it can toughen one after awhile.)
 
  • #1,004
I think the primary argument that AK did the staging is that no one else seems to have had much to gain from doing it. It was the allegations of staging that first put me in the pro-verdict camp.

But since then I've learned:

1. There is considerable disagreement among experts as to whether anything was staged. In particularly, luminol found little to no evidence of wiping; the mop and bucket tested negative for blood.

2. Only traces of AK and RS were cleaned up; somehow they left RG's traces in place, even the invisible ones.

2. RG has a history of burglary charges and/or suspicions.

3. The evidence of staging relied not on expert analysis with accompanying photos, etc., but primarily on the recollection of the girl whose room was tossed. (I have no reason to believe she is lying, but I do think it possible she had an imperfect memory of how she left the room.)
Thank you for this! I also was in the pro-verdict camp, and then became quite angry when I found out the facts you have listed, as I felt I had been misled by false information. I absolutely do not think the staging should be left unquestioned!
 
  • #1,005
Yes, I believe that makes her guilty as well if she stand by let her roommate be murdered, not even call the police or an ambulance and then covers it up and lies about it to the police. Maybe she is then guilty to a lesser extend but not totally sure about that. I am certainly not an expert in Italian law so pls don't take my word for it :)
Well, yes, I think there is a duty to call the police if you think someone is getting murdered. My only question is about her claiming she was asked to envision being there, which could have prompted her to create a false memory....
 
  • #1,006
it's all conjecture...all of it...our lady justice will weep for Amanda....Justice is not served when a person is convicted on conjecture and wishful thinking.
Yes, that is what was so offensive to me about the Massei Report---I expected to read it and come away convinced. But there was so much conjecture, it made me angry.........
 
  • #1,007
I wonder what effect such a forum will actually have regarding the appeal. Below, from http://www.westseattleherald.com/2011/03/28/news/update-amanda-knox-forum-seattle-u-attract-big-na It seems to me there is a great disconnect between what is going on in the Italian appeal process, and the cry for justice within the doubting scholars and public domain::waitasec:

UPDATE: Amanda Knox forum at Seattle U. to attract big names, public invited

AMANDA KNOX: THE CASE FOR INNOCENCE forum

By Steve Shay
2011-03-28 updated 6 hours ago
While the defense appeal of West Seattle-raised Amanda Knox is currently being heard in Perugia, Italy, a panel has been selected to present "The Case for Innocence” a forum open to the public, Monday, April 4, 4:00 p.m. - 5:30 p.m., Pigott Auditorium, Seattle University. There is expected Q & A following the panel discussion.

The public is invited and the event is free.

The panel includes:

Thomas Wright, moderator, FriendsofAmanda.org

Candace Dempsey, journalist, author of Murder in Italy: The Shocking Slaying of a British Student, the Accused American Girl, and an International Scandal

Steve Moore, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Special Agent, 25 yrs, ret.

Mark Waterbury, author of Monster of Perugia: The Framing of Amanda Knox

Paul Ciolino, CBS News, “48 Hours”

The forum is sponsored by the B.A. in Film Studies Program, Seattle University

We will update as this event nears.
 
  • #1,008
there are some people in this world that "life happens to"...they don't have much control over their own realm.

Amanda strikes me as one of these people...it's a sort of oblivion...she doesn't have command of situations..she is not grounded...she is inside her own head..she wants to articulate and defend herself but she falls short.

she is very confused in a situation like this...I hope they don't try to put her on the stand again.

I have known alot of girls like her...she's a quirky hippie girl .
 
  • #1,009
there are some people in this world that "life happens to"...they don't have much control over their own realm.

Amanda strikes me as one of these people...it's a sort of oblivion...she doesn't have command of situations..she is not grounded...she is inside her own head..she wants to articulate and defend herself but she falls short.

she is very confused in a situation like this...I hope they don't try to put her on the stand again.

I have known alot of girls like her...she's a quirky hippie girl .
Yes, I got the same thing off of her from the beginning, and that's what worries me. Most likely the type of girl who a man like Mignini would feel some revulsion for, and expect the worst of. One thing if she actually committed the murder and staged the scene. But since there seem to be grave doubts possible, then it would seem almost as if that "quirky hippie" character got her in this mess, which is not fair. :(
 
  • #1,010
I would argue that Mignini's "revulsion" is sexual attraction.
 
  • #1,011
I would argue that Mignini's "revulsion" is sexual attraction.
I had actually thought of that aspect, as well!!!:innocent:
 
  • #1,012
I wish Otto would explain WHY the staged break-in is "a given"? If retired FBI experts and scholars do not believe so, and if Mignini had motive for believing so (judging from his odd history, I would be impressed by him, but wary; very wary)---why is this a foregone conclusion?

Let's put ourselves in Filomina's shoes for a moment. Suppose you went out one day. Everything in your room was left more or less in its place, clothes in the wardrobe, computer on your desk, nothing tossed on the floor. When you returned, your clothes were pulled out of the wardrobe onto the floor, your laptop on the floor with the clothes. You look around, see the window is broken, and then see broken glass on top of the clothes that are on the floor.

What is the logical conclusion regarding the order in which things were put on the floor? Was the glass put on the floor, and then the clothes, or were the clothes put on the floor, and then the glass? This doesn't require any complex analysis. A retired mechanical engineer is not needed for understanding the situation. We see the floor, then the clothes, then the glass on top. What happened first?
 
  • #1,013
I don't know, I wasn't there; but I have trouble believing AK's family thinks this would be helpful. Giving interviews to CBS, sure. Shouting at journalists in a courtroom? That's almost certain to backfire and harm AK.

To me, the shouters sound more like the groupies who attach themselves to every well-publicized trial.

I think the family is named as heckling journalists.
 
  • #1,014
Let's put ourselves in Filomina's shoes for a moment. Suppose you went out one day. Everything in your room was left more or less in its place, clothes in the wardrobe, computer on your desk, nothing tossed on the floor. When you returned, your clothes were pulled out of the wardrobe onto the floor, your laptop on the floor with the clothes. You look around, see the window is broken, and then see broken glass on top of the clothes that are on the floor.

What is the logical conclusion regarding the order in which things were put on the floor? Was the glass put on the floor, and then the clothes, or were the clothes put on the floor, and then the glass? This doesn't require any complex analysis. A retired mechanical engineer is not needed for understanding the situation. We see the floor, then the clothes, then the glass on top. What happened first?

I would think that Filomina staged this as it was her room and not AK's... and even if Filomina did stage it, it wouldn't prove she did harm to MK, it would only prove she staged something.... just like nothing mentioned from all I've read places AK in the room with MK.... I would need to see bloody AK finger prints in MK room... bloody foot prints from AK in MK room.... cuts and scratches on AK... blood splatter on AK clothing....
 
  • #1,015
a window can easily be broken with an elbow, a thrown object, the back of someones head...

I can see many ways that this can be part of a struggle...especially if MK woke up to RG ransacking her room..

and I can also see RG feeling remorseful after spending time in the bathroom and thinking...and then going and covering the girl in her quilt out of shame. maybe he was hiding and heard someone come in...he may have covered the body in case someone looked inside....

it's just ridiculous.
 
  • #1,016
Let's put ourselves in Filomina's shoes for a moment. Suppose you went out one day. Everything in your room was left more or less in its place, clothes in the wardrobe, computer on your desk, nothing tossed on the floor. When you returned, your clothes were pulled out of the wardrobe onto the floor, your laptop on the floor with the clothes. You look around, see the window is broken, and then see broken glass on top of the clothes that are on the floor.

What is the logical conclusion regarding the order in which things were put on the floor? Was the glass put on the floor, and then the clothes, or were the clothes put on the floor, and then the glass? This doesn't require any complex analysis. A retired mechanical engineer is not needed for understanding the situation. We see the floor, then the clothes, then the glass on top. What happened first?

I know you discount Hendry, but he took a long time with this aspect of his professional opinion, & I find it difficult to argue with (especially when knowledge came out that Guede carried a rock in his back-back to break windows; that he was a known burglar, and that due to his being a police informant had a wide berth, lots of leeway; that he carried a knife, and that he would have been aware that the occupants were all out that night (being a friend of the boys downstairs), etc....to view photos and other aspects of below analysis, go here http://www.injusticeinperugia.biz/RonHendry------2.html

Part one of four - How was Filomena’s window broken?
By Ron Hendry

With the dispute over the “break-in”, the first question that comes to mind is just how was the window broken? Several police crime scene photos were reviewed of the found condition of Filomena Romanelli’s room and broken window as well as the exterior wall and grounds. Filomena Romanelli, flat mate of Meredith Kercher and Amanda Knox, had the room next to the door entrance in the four room upstairs cottage flat. The furniture in her room consisted of a twin sized bed, a nightstand, freestanding wardrobe closet, and a desk. The only outside window appeared to be nominally two feet wide by four feet high as shown in the photo below. This window was in turn comprised of two casement glass windows which swung horizontally to the inside to open and could be latched closed together. A set of dark green louvered shutters were located on the outside and a set of solid white shutters were located on the inside. Both the inside and outside shutters could also be latched closed.

What follows is a look at the evidence relating to the broken window that can be discerned from these photos along with a couple of reported observations about where the glass pieces were and were not found.

Evidence and factors relating to the broken window

1. Large section of one casement window pane broken out

The photo below shows the broken window pane which was the left pane from the inside of the room looking out. Almost half of the nearly four foot high pane was broken out. The bottom arrow locates a recent impact site to the separable inside solid wood shutter. In order to unlock the casement windows, an intruder’s hands would need to be able to extend through the broken out pane and reach the latch at the receptacle shown at the upper arrow about 2 inches above the “S” marker.

2. A large rock was found inside the room and well to one side of the broken window pane.

A large rock was found inside Filomena Romanelli’s room near the window. This rock was located to the side of the unbroken casement window pane. The rock came to rest about two feet from the wall and about one foot to the right of the window edge. This large rock had hit the top of a large paper bag full of clothing and had pushed the bag over and away from the window while also inducing a large tear in the bag. The rock was not located directly beneath the window where one would expect to find it in a staged placement.

The photo below shows the large rock found in Filomena’s room. This was a photo extracted from a video of the crime scene in Filomena’s room. Note the cluttered appearance of the room.

The photo below shows a close-up of the large rock and torn black paper bag. Small flakes of the rock were observed where the rock hit the floor. Also note the two small pieces of glass lying on the floor at the arrows.
3. Impact damage to inside solid wood shutter with apparent shattered glass in the impact damage zone

The photo below shows that the inside solid wood shutter was freshly impacted by an object in the locale of the impact to the broken window pane.

The red arrow points to a fresh appearing impact site at a corner edge of the inside solid wood shutter. Crushed or powdered glass appears embedded in this small impact site. Note the crush deformation line behind this impact site. The blue arrow points to a small piece of glass stuck to the inside shutter.

4. Found condition of outside louvered window shutters in locale of broken window pane

The photo below shows a Close-up of the lower half of the outer window shutter opposite the broken window pane. A portion of the eighth shutter from the bottom appears damaged and without paint covering. A small area of the lower left was also without paint. No embedded or stuck glass shards can be seen in the shutter nor were any reported.

5. The location of the loose pieces of broken glass as ascertained from photos

Police photos and video still photos show that glass shards and fragments were located on the outside and inside window sill, on the floor inside the room by the window, and a wide scattering of glass pieces on the floor from the window and bed toward the desk wall. The blue mat provided excellent contrast for viewing the glass pieces while a couple of video stills captured the reflective sunlight from small glass fragments widely scattered over most of the floor.

In the photo below, the four circles denote the several locations of loose glass that can be definitively seen from early strobe light photos. The following close-ups are of the locations with exception of the glass near the resting place of the rock which has already been shown.

The photo below shows glass shards lying on the window sill with the shards being located only on the side where the pane was broken. Several of these shards appeared to have come from the window pane edges.

The photo below shows some glass shards on the floor under the window at the arrow. The flooring design made it very difficult to detect small glass pieces in photos taken using strobe lighting.
The photo below shows the blue floor mat. The mat appears to have good traction and a relief pattern that tended to hold glass pieces of all sizes in place after they had fallen and even walked upon. Note the widely distributed spray pattern of the glass.

6. Reported pieces of glass found on Filomena’s clothing and belongings

Filomena Romanelli reported finding glass fragments on top of some clothing and her notebook computer and one officer reportedly observed the same thing. These observations were also touted by the prosecution as indicating the window was broken after the room was ransacked and thus meaning that the break-in was staged.

However the police photos available do not show glass particles on top of clothing or other objects. The glass particles that can be seen in the photos are on the floor and blue floor mat.

Filomena indicated she had stored her notebook computer upright on the floor and found it lying on its side. When she went to pick it up, she noted glass pieces on it.

The photo below shows a view inside room showing heavy clutter.

The photo below shows a bundle of clothing items on floor next to wardrobe closet. Note the pair of houseshoes.

The photo below shows a closer view of desk area and items on floor around it. First note the clutter of items on top of the desk and how none appear jostled around even the upright tubes of cream or other substances. Note the pair of women’s boots in the foreground and the white bag under the desk along with the pink boxes on the shelf under the desk. Note the items on the floor towards the window to the left of the chair.

The photo below shows a closeup of the overturned black paper sack of belongings with the rock sticking halfway out. Note the dark sweater under the black paper sack. Note the light colored handbag between the wall and the black paper sack and note the black carrying bag under the handbag.

7. Reported lack of found glass pieces found on ground outside of window

Photos of the ground outside and beneath the window indicate it was a combination of earth and sod with a light coating of recently dropped autumn tree leaves. Apparently two or more persons looked at this ground area and detected no shattered glass pieces. Unless a meticulous and rigorous foot by foot examination was made of the ground area where one looks under the fallen leaves, then one would not know for sure if no glass had fallen.

The photo below is a video screen capture photo of someone possibly a police officer looking down in the vicinity of the ground outside of Filomena’s window. This video appeared to have been taken the afternoon of the discovery of the body of Meredith Kercher.

The photo below shows a view looking at the ground under Filomena’s window from a position on the ground to the left of the window and toward the walkway entrance. This photo shows the open space between the parking lot and the door entrance overhang. Filomena’s window is at the top of photo and shows open shutters. Note the yellow leaves in foreground.

The photo below shows another view looking at the ground under Filomena’s window from the entrance walkway. Note the light blanket of recently fallen tree leaves. Note how the concrete walkway around the cottage ends at the junction of the new section with the original cottage building. Note open window shutters to Filomena’s window.

Discussion and analysis

The casement window pane was broken with most of its lower half missing and a large rock was found inside the room. The large rock had fallen onto, overturned and torn a paper bag of clothing as it fell. In landing, small pieces of the rock flaked off as a marker for where it landed. A couple of small pieces of glass could be seen near the resting position of the large rock.

Also the inside wooden shutter had a recent impact site consistent only with being impacted by an object which had initially impacted the window pane. Then too a spray of glass was found on the high contrasting blue floor mat located several feet from the window. Additional glass shards were found on the inner and outer window sill and on the floor beneath the broken window pane. Small piles of glass shards were found on the inner and outer window sill and on the floor beneath the broken window pane. Most importantly, a widely disbursed spray of glass was found on the floor from the window and bed to the desk wall.

All the above elements indicate the window pane was broken by a large rock thrown from the outside.

The final resting position of the rock indicated that the person throwing the rock was located somewhat to the driveway entrance side instead of directly in front of the window. The small contact zone to the inside wooden shutter relative to the size of the rock inferred that the shutter was partially open when impacted by the large rock.

Any theory that promotes the window being broken from the inside totally falls apart when attempting to account for the spray of broken window pieces on the floor which was best illustrated on the high contrasting blue floor mat next to Filomena’s bed

If the window was closed when impacted from the inside, one would not expect a spray of glass out into the room or onto the blue floor mat.

If the window was opened about halfway when impacted, one would expect any glass spray to be directed toward the wardrobe closet and not out into the opposite side of the room where it was actually found. Additionally one would not expect to see the accumulation of large glass shards on the outer window sill as they were found. Also one would expect that the simulator would have dropped the rock under the window instead of off to one side as it was actually found.

Any and all theories for the rock being thrown from the inside are unrealistic when considering both the spray of glass on the floor and the recent impact to the inner wooden shutter.

As regards the glass on items inside the room, Filomena had far too many items of clothing and belongings for the meager storage in the room and had no choice but to stack it along the walls and elsewhere. Thus, her report of finding belongings covered with pieces of glass is consistent with a rock thrown from the outside.

As regards the areas of exposed wood to the outside shutter, these areas were old in appearance. In addition they did not look like damage one would expect to occur from an impact with a rock. Further, the louver damage area appeared to have resulted from a flaking off a portion of the wood. Had the louver damage been related to contact with the rock, then one would have expected the missing wood piece to have been found and promoted as a rock contact site.

As regards the lack of glass on the outside ground, if the rock had been thrown from the inside and struck the window pane and then the outer shutter, one would have expected a blast of glass particles striking the louvered shutters with some going through and falling to the ground and some being stuck in the louvers. We would also expect that the outer shutters would have been knocked open by the rock with a considerable amount of glass winding up on the ground along with the rock. We would also expect glass over most of the outer window sill.

However, no glass was found stuck in the louvers, the glass was restricted to one side of the window sill, the rock was found in the room, and no glass was found on the ground.

Thus, the found condition of the outside louver, the location of the glass on the window sill, and lack of finding of glass pieces outside on the ground were all an indication of a rock thrown from the outside rather than from the inside.

Actually one would also expect a few small pieces of glass to fall to the ground with a rock thrown from the outside. It is likely that no one conducted a rigorous foot by foot sifting of the soil for glass pieces. With the light blanket of fallen leaves, one would not easily detect a few small pieces of fallen glass.

Thus the totality of the physical evidence overwhelmingly indicates that the window pane was shattered by a large rock thrown from the outside and that large rock was the one found inside the room. While this is a strong indicator of an intruder’s handiwork, it does not conclusively prove in and of itself that an intruder by the name of Rudy Guede actually entered the upstairs flat through the window. Part Two will explore facts relevant to that question.
To view photos, go to this link and scroll down:http://www.injusticeinperugia.biz/RonHendry------2.html
 
  • #1,017
Short answer: Regardless of what Filomina may have thought, is it not possible that Guede himself pushed the big shards of glass in on top of some clothes that were lying around as well as other objects?:waitasec:
 
  • #1,018
Addendum: Using the law of Occam's razor, in which the simplest explanation is likely to be the true one, isn't it far more likely that this known burglar, taking his time robbing the place, as all were out, and sitting on the toilet, was dismayed to hear Meredith return early, and go into her bedroom to call her Mom? After thinking of what to do, he decides to go in and confront her, and the rest is history---a history which takes place in around 10 minutes....this, rather than the whole twisted, convoluted, complicated scenario envisioned by Mignini? How on earth did Raffaele and Amanda manage not to be drenched in blood? Why did noone see the blood-soaked pair in Perugia? The following report, regardless of WHO wrote it, resonates with reality, cold, drab, plain reality:http://www.injusticeinperugia.biz/RonHendry9.html
 
  • #1,019
  • #1,020
PS: I have just recalled that you said the Hendry material had already been discussed ad nauseum, so maybe I went overboard with these postings. Sorry. Will try and edit some of the length, too....:deadhorse:
 
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