Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #4

[mostlylurking]

C'mon, Truly.
Tell us how you really feel.

 

[Leila]

A claim is not proof. CPS has an enormous amount of pressure to produce something the state can work with. I want to see what that is.

Last Thursday's hearing was only a preliminary hearing for the purpose of determining whether or not CPS and the state have sufficient evidence to support their request that the state retain custody.

I seriously doubt that a CPS worker, who was under oath, is going to make a false statement and mislead the court. In this case, when the attorney asked, "Can you identify any households in which a child was caused serious injury or death? The CPS supervisor said Yes."

The above statement is to be taken at face value at this time, and although we'd all like to know exactly what the CPS supervisor was alluding to, it's not our privilege to know until that time when charges are made. Some specific evidence may be withheld until the case is prosecuted.

 

[Native New Yorker]

I have followed these two threads ever since the initial raids....and I have been just horrified to read the defenses made of this cult, and the excuses for the abuses perpetuated on the women, children and boys....all of the "yes, but " arguments...
God help us all if someone decides to bring back the Third Reich ( How about a Fourth One?) and create another Aryan nation....would that be the right of anyone who wanted to do that? Or what if a Muslim group wanted to stone those who disobeyed their religious laws, which can be a common punishment in some Arab countries? Where does the greater good prevail, or can anyone do anything they wish...in the name of "freedom"?

The FLDS is a close to a Fascist society as any I have read of ....those women, and children...boys and girls alike have NO rights, unless we as a society intervene.
I have been sickened by what I have read here, as it reminds me all to well of the defenses of Hitler as he rose to power, and many refused to recognize just what he was up to......
look up Neville Chamberlain...
look up "lebensraum"...
excuses, excuses for the victimization of the weak.....and very sad to read it here.....
"those who refuse to learn from the past are condemned to repeating its mistakes"
George Santayana

 

[mollymalone]

From Escape by Carolyn Jessop
http://www.slate.com/id/2189275/

"Page 307: The FLDS faithful didn't see anything wrong with the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. One of Carolyn's sister-wives "couldn't stop talking about how she and all the righteous people she knew saw the hand of God in the attacks. … Warren Jeffs had been preaching that the entire earth would soon be at war and all the worthy among the chosen would be lifted from the earth and protected, while God destroyed the wicked."

Page 195: Some of Carolyn's stepdaughters were married to Jeffs, and she feared his temper. She writes: "One day he brought one of his wives into the [school] auditorium, which was packed with boys. Annette had a long braid that fell past her knees. Warren grabbed the braid and twisted and twisted it until she was on her knees and he was ripping hair from her head. He told the boys that this was how obedient their wives had to be to them."

 

[mollymalone]

I have followed these two threads ever since the initial raids....and I have been just horrified to read the defenses made of this cult, and the excuses for the abuses perpetuated on the women, children and boys....all of the "yes, but " arguments...
God help us all if someone decides to bring back the Third Reich ( How about a Fourth One?) and create another Aryan nation....would that be the right of anyone who wanted to do that? Or what if a Muslim group wanted to stone those who disobeyed their religious laws, which can be a common punishment in some Arab countries? Where does the greater good prevail, or can anyone do anything they wish...in the name of "freedom"?

The FLDS is a close to a Fascist society as any I have read of ....those women, and children...boys and girls alike have NO rights, unless we as a society intervene.
I have been sickened by what I have read here, as it reminds me all to well of the defenses of Hitler as he rose to power, and many refused to recognize just what he was up to......
look up Neville Chamberlain...
look up "lebensraum"...
excuses, excuses for the victimization of the weak.....and very sad to read it here.....
"those who refuse to learn from the past are condemned to repeating its mistakes"
George Santayana

"Former FLDS members report being taught that "the Holocaust never existed and that the government fabricated the story of man landing on the moon in order to hide tax money"

Warren Jeffs' hero is Hitler. I believe he's taken examples from Hitler in makinig his decisions, arbitrary or otherwise. Look at the compound buildings, the walls going up like a concentration camp to isolate and keep the people inside; the concept of impregnanting all of these young girls/women; his mantra about keeping sweet and the "pure" aspect.

 

[Truly]

C'mon, Truly.
Tell us how you really feel.

LOL! a little overkill on the point size, haha.

 

[mollymalone]

Last Thursday's hearing was only a preliminary hearing for the purpose of determining whether or not CPS and the state have sufficient evidence to support their request that the state retain custody.

I seriously doubt that a CPS worker, who was under oath, is going to make a false statement and mislead the court. In this case, when the attorney asked, "Can you identify any households in which a child was caused serious injury or death? The CPS supervisor said Yes."

The above statement is to be taken at face value at this time, and although we'd all like to know exactly what the CPS supervisor was alluding to, it's not our privilege to know until that time when charges are made. Some specific evidence may be withheld until the case is prosecuted.

Well said. We're not going to know evidence unless/until it comes out in court. In some specific individual hearings regarding children some of those hearings might be end up being closed to the public.

 

[Ca-Sun]

(Thanks, philamena. Glow's attempt to justify child rape is just revolting to me.)

There is absolutely NOTHING that could ever justify raping a child. Nothing.

 

[mollymalone]

They're rerunning Nancy Grace's show from the other day and one of the guests said this:

"They keep crying about "our children, our children" when in fact many of those children were kidnapped. They took those children from another state, across state lines and some of them their parents were kicked out.
They're guilty of kidnapping."

 

[Truly]

There is absolutely NOTHING that could ever justify raping a child. Nothing.

:blowkiss: Thank you. Even though I am grown now, it never really goes away. The insistance that it not be called rape, the threats to kill if you told, the inability of a child to challenge very powerful men, this BS that it is somehow the man's God-given right, Glow's invention that it is not rape or pedophilia if the child had begun her period...it just makes me sick.

 

[Leila]

As far as the reports of waterboarding and other forms of torture, it is important to remember that none of those claims have been made on behalf of the children of YFZ itself. Former members of the Arizona and Colorado compounds have raised those issues. And the temptation seems to be to weave it all in together. As a matter of fact I first heard the term "waterboarding" here on WS. another titillating and inflammatory term that flies in the face of the statements by experts who are with the children who said the are well bonded with each other, beautiful and healthier than average.

First of all, a CPS supervisor testified at last Thursday's hearing that they did have evidence pertaining to physical abuse at YFZ ranch.

Secondly, and most importantly, Warren Jeffs chose the people who would go to the YFZ ranch in Texas, from the FLDS members at Colorado City, Hildale, and other FLDS communities under his control. It's only logical to assume that the members brought with them the same practices that they had engaged in at their former communities. If they were Catholic, we wouldn't expect them to stop going to confession just because they moved from one parish to another.

Thirdly, Carolyn Jessop stated that her former husband, Merrill Jessop abused children by spanking them until they cried and then held their face under a water tap, then spanked them and again and held their face under a water tap, and repeated this until the child was limp with exhaustion. The practice was to make the child fear their father beginning at a young age, so they would obey him.

Well...........guess what? Merrill Jessop is in charge of the YFZ ranch. Do you really think he has discontinued a practice he feels is necessary to control children?

Yes, those experts have described the children as being well-bonded with each other, beautiful, and healthy. But it's also been reported that the children aren't talking, so we don't really know the extent of the abuse.

What would you expect a child who had been abused by the repeated act of spanking/holding their face under a water tap to look like? Would a child that was abused in that manner look any different than other children?

 

[cheko1]

Great Post Leila!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Another point about the kids not talking we haven't heard how long the children were put into a closet for and starved. Could of been for talking or saying the wrong thing just to teach them a lesson.

We seen from Marilyn's house how there was not so much as a toy seen for the kids to play with. Also no high chairs for the babies to sit in to eat. That proved to me the kids are very low ranked minions at the compound.

The expressions on the womens faces also told me they'd be vicious if they were made mad by the kids. Many scared me, not a trace of kindness & not a gentle feature shown at any point.

 

[barb0301]

A claim is not proof. CPS has an enormous amount of pressure to produce something the state can work with. I want to see what that is.

No, claim is not proof. However, your statement was that no claim of this type of abuse had been made on behalf of the YFZ children. It has now been made, in a court of law. You did not mention proof in your earlier statement.

Proof will come during a criminal trial, if one is to follow. If it comes during civil proceedings, such as child custody cases, we will not be privy to them, and should not be privy to them. The child deserves their privacy.

 

[Native New Yorker]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/20/polygamy.sect/index.html

"The Texas branch of the American Civil Liberties Union said it was concerned that the basic rights of the children and mothers connected to a Texas polygamist ranch were violated during a recent raid and custody hearing."

This should make at least one poster here happy! Leave it to the ACLU...you've got to give them credit for defending the indefensible....
how rescuing people can be seen as "violating their rights" is beyond me!

 

[barb0301]

I figured the ACLU would show up sooner, rather than later. Gotta get their names out their, get their faces in front of those microphones and talk about the poor FLDS people whose rights were trampled on, like no other. blah, blah, blah, blah :razz: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo:

 

[Glow]

No, claim is not proof. However, your statement was that no claim of this type of abuse had been made on behalf of the YFZ children. It has now been made, in a court of law. You did not mention proof in your earlier statement.

Proof will come during a criminal trial, if one is to follow. If it comes during civil proceedings, such as child custody cases, we will not be privy to them, and should not be privy to them. The child deserves their privacy.

I'm going to say something that apparently only I say on this thread...

Let me correct myself!

No claim of physical abuse has been made by anyone concerning the YFZ sect except by Angie Voss, lead person for CPS. When asked if she was aware of evidence of physical abuse she replied yes. Since sexual acts with under aged minors are also in the category of physical abuse we don't really know at this point if there is any reason to think that children younger then that age group experienced any abuse. We will have to wait on the testimony.

Everyone on each side is now under enormous pressure to "make their case" that always makes being honest a little harder. Being right can supplant being truthful and accurate just because of the pressure that gets created.

 

[mysteriew]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/20/polygamy.sect/index.html

"The Texas branch of the American Civil Liberties Union said it was concerned that the basic rights of the children and mothers connected to a Texas polygamist ranch were violated during a recent raid and custody hearing."

This should make at least one poster here happy! Leave it to the ACLU...you've got to give them credit for defending the indefensible....
how rescuing people can be seen as "violating their rights" is beyond me!

The ACLU is well known for inserting themselves into pedophilia cases. I'll be polite and just say they seem to have quite an interest in them. And this time they had better be careful. If they are saying that CPS violated civil rights in this case, when they got a search warrant before going in, and then got another warrant before removing the kids.... they may be biting off more than they can chew when the rest of the child abusers start hitting them up for representation because their kids got taken away and without search warrants and removal warrants.

 

[mysteriew]

I'm going to say something that apparently only I say on this thread...

Let me correct myself!

No claim of physical abuse has been made by anyone concerning the YFZ sect except by Angie Voss, lead person for CPS. When asked if she was aware of evidence of physical abuse she replied yes. Since sexual acts with under aged minors are also in the category of physical abuse we don't really know at this point if there is any reason to think that children younger then that age group experienced any abuse. We will have to wait on the testimony.

Everyone on each side is now under enormous pressure to "make their case" that always makes being honest a little harder. Being right can supplant being truthful and accurate just because of the pressure that gets created.

Glow, I have a hypothetical for you. The way I am understanding you, you seem to be saying that if a child has gone through puberty she is ready for sex? Am I correct? So you seem to believe that it is ok to marry her off and impregnate her?

 

[barb0301]

I'm going to say something that apparently only I say on this thread...

Let me correct myself!

No claim of physical abuse has been made by anyone concerning the YFZ sect except by Angie Voss, lead person for CPS. When asked if she was aware of evidence of physical abuse she replied yes. Since sexual acts with under aged minors are also in the category of physical abuse we don't really know at this point if there is any reason to think that children younger then that age group experienced any abuse. We will have to wait on the testimony.

What Angie Voss was asked was ""Can you identify any households in which a child was caused serious injury or death?"
Her answer was yes.

Sexual acts with under aged minors would not normally fit in the category of abuse causing serious injury or death.

"Can you identify any households in which a child was caused serious injury or death?

There are times when I feel you choose to ignore what has been said, or twist it in such a way that it "means nothing". This statement SPOKE VOLUMES TO ME!!!! And validated many of the stories from former FLDS members that we have heard.

How can you write it off so cavalierly?

 

[FlowerChild]

A list of other historical "wrongs" do not make FLDS "right. It really doesn't matter about wrongs perpetrated on/against Catholics, The Native Americans, Jews, African Americans or any group who has been the victim of crimes (whatever the motivation). Saying that pedophile priests were WORSE than pedophile FLDS men doesn't make EITHER right or acceptable - in the eyes of the law or the eyes of society both are reprehensible and criminal and unacceptable. Yes, 100 years ago girls married and bore children at very young ages - as soon as they reached puberty (which 100 years ago was usually at age 14-16) - and there were arranged and forced marriages too. Does that make what happened 100 years ago right for 2008? No - just like it wasn't right for SLAVE OWNERS to forcibly rape women and girls, torture and kill other human beings, starve them or work them to death - even though THE LAW SAID it was their right (and even DUTY) to do so. Is what the FLDS Church doing really any different? Does the FLDS Church have any more right than Slave owners did to hide immoral and horrendous behavior behind the LAW and what was considered acceptable by their like-minded peers? To ME the FLDS sounds suspiciously like enslavement of woman and children....didn't slave owners 100 years ago use the SAME METHODS to control their "human property" and hide behind the LAW to do so???

I have no issue with a girl of 14 CHOOSING to have sex with a man older than her IF she is expressing FREE WILL. That would be her choice without interference or coersion by OTHER INFLUENTIAL ADULTS - such as the "prophet", a teacher, a boss or a spiritual leader. WHAT MOTHER hands over her 12-14 year old daughter to a man of 50 as his 10th wife with joy? What mother approves of her 14 year old daughter having sex with ANYONE??? The 14 year old might do it (I did, and he was 21 years old) but my Mom certainly would not have approved and would have STOPPED me if she could have. If I had been taken from her at ANY age MY Mom would also not have been sitting around with her hands folded making imperceptible crying "sounds' (I didn't see many tears, just the odd sounds they obviously think is "proper" grief and mildly grimacing faces). She would have been like a wild animal and it would have been one angry, bloody, loud and violent fight. Perhaps it is forbidden to weep tears and actually cry - just like it's forbidden to laugh, raise your voice, question authority, defend your child against his/her father (or any man), watch TV, listen to the radio, read a book, magazine or newspaper, go online, cut your hair or remove ones long underwear.

I could give a Flat Flip WHAT religion the accused practices or how many consenting adults live in a "marriage". I have no business in the bedrooms of others and have huge respect for the rights of parents (of sound mind) to practice whatever lifestyle/religion they choose - with their children. If it's not criminal, I don't care what people do - it's their right to live their life and teach their children accordingly.

HOWEVER- The ONLY part religion plays in this case is that it's a religion that conveniently condones and encourages a CRIMINAL ACT and SUBORNS PERJURY and uses emotional BLACKMAIL, PSYCHOLOGICAL BRAINWASHING and PHYSICAL TORTURE to FORCE it's members to LIE CHEAT STEAL AND MANIPULATE the public, the govt and LE to HIDE THE TRUTH. Once a religion subverts FREE WILL - by FORCE - using whatever processes necessary - it becomes not a religion, but a cult, or criminal enterprise. Abuse is happening in the FLDS church - abuse of children AND of women. It's patently IGNORANT to argue it's about religion - it isn't - IT'S ABOUT ABUSE - mental, physical, emotional and sexual plain and simple.

My Opinion