Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #4

[Leila]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/20/polygamy.sect/index.html

"The Texas branch of the American Civil Liberties Union said it was concerned that the basic rights of the children and mothers connected to a Texas polygamist ranch were violated during a recent raid and custody hearing."

This should make at least one poster here happy! Leave it to the ACLU...you've got to give them credit for defending the indefensible....
how rescuing people can be seen as "violating their rights" is beyond me!

Native New Yorker..............I'm also a native New Yorker (upstate). I agree with your comments regarding the ACLU. In this case the Texas authorities did everything by the book. The CPS workers did everything in their power to try to minimize the impact on the children, by allowing their mothers to accompany them. The mothers were only expelled after CPS learned they were impeding the investigation.

The ACLU is running true to form, as they always take the wrong side on any issue.

 

[Leila]

Indeed they do seem to have quite an interest in them.

I guess the ACLU does take a personal interest in the subject of pedophiles. This is a classic case of "Do as I say, not what I do."

 

[Glow]

Glow, I have a hypothetical for you. The way I am understanding you, you seem to be saying that if a child has gone through puberty she is ready for sex? Am I correct? So you seem to believe that it is ok to marry her off and impregnate her?

Hi mysteriew,

First, thank you for a "non flaming glow" post. From this point on I am going to respond only to your type of post. People interested in extending their range of thinking.

Personally? No. I do not feel that a girl or woman should have sex early. I am so determined on this topic that even though I gave birth to a child at 16, my own daughter was 25 before she had her first child. I feel so very proud for whatever role I played in enabling her to do that.

I have avoided posting what my area of expertise on this subject is on purpose. I didn't want that to lend any weight to OR take away from anyone's feeling free to post their thoughts. But I do have a vested interest in this subject.

I also realize that what I would wish for women and girls and what really happens on a global scale are two different things.

All of the pushing and shoving and jockeying for position that people engage in accomplishes very little in the way of true change in favor of women's rights. The most favorable climate for changing things for the better is in understanding the way the "other person" (our adversary) thinks. Only when we have climbed down the ladder of our own "elevated" thinking to the rung where our adversary is in THEIR thinking, do we reach their minds. The trick then is to lead them up the ladder to what "we" think is a better place to be.

So that is how I really feel as a person. But how I feel "as a person" is neither here nor there as far as this case.

What matters here is that the least harm be done while accomplishing the greatest good. What I have tried to do on this thread is to introduce concepts that are "larger" than just what the current law is. Obviously laws change over time. But there are human feelings and human situations and moral values that transcend law. I was trying to draw those into the picture in order to evoke an honest and provocative conversation among women on this web site. I proposed a line of thinking based on biology (the age at which a female becomes PHYSICALLY able to procreate)

Next, I brought in a second line of thinking based on the Judeo/Christian value system (the age of the mother of Jesus) since this is mainly a Christian based group of posters, I expected many well thought out posts.


That did not happen

I just keep meeting the same line of thought... basically a constant repetition of the "group" value system of the 5 or 6 posters here.

The basic feedback:

glow you are approving of pedophiles

glow you hate the government

glow you don't care about the children

etc etc....

so while this attempt at communication might appear to be a dismal failure personally, it is actually a really good look at a microcosm of society as a whole. I have learned a lot.

enough said. Thank you for asking the hard questions mysteriew!

glow

 

[Glow]

What Angie Voss was asked was ""Can you identify any households in which a child was caused serious injury or death?"
Her answer was yes.

Sexual acts with under aged minors would not normally fit in the category of abuse causing serious injury or death.

"Can you identify any households in which a child was caused serious injury or death?

There are times when I feel you choose to ignore what has been said, or twist it in such a way that it "means nothing". This statement SPOKE VOLUMES TO ME!!!! And validated many of the stories from former FLDS members that we have heard.

How can you write it off so cavalierly?

I am sorry that I sound cavalier to you barb. You took in foster children and loved them in a way that defy's all the statistics. I wish every foster child could brave been placed with you,

 

[barb0301]

I am sorry that I sound cavalier to you barb. You took in foster children and loved them in a way that defy's all the statistics. I wish every foster child could brave been placed with you,

Thank you for your very kind statement Glow :blowkiss: (as always). But I don't think we were THAT unusual in the foster system. There are many, many fine foster families out there. Unfortunately, you only hear the horror stories.

What came across as cavalier to me was "We will have to wait on the testimony", after spending days upon days harping on CPS and DPS for removing the children in the first place. An allegation has been made that there are household(s) in which a child was caused serious injury or death. Is that not frightening to you?

 

[Floh]

A list of other historical "wrongs" do not make FLDS "right. It really doesn't matter about wrongs perpetrated on/against Catholics, The Native Americans, Jews, African Americans or any group who has been the victim of crimes (whatever the motivation). Saying that pedophile priests were WORSE than pedophile FLDS men doesn't make EITHER right or acceptable - in the eyes of the law or the eyes of society both are reprehensible and criminal and unacceptable. Yes, 100 years ago girls married and bore children at very young ages - as soon as they reached puberty (which 100 years ago was usually at age 14-16) - and there were arranged and forced marriages too. Does that make what happened 100 years ago right for 2008? No - just like it wasn't right for SLAVE OWNERS to forcibly rape women and girls, torture and kill other human beings, starve them or work them to death - even though THE LAW SAID it was their right (and even DUTY) to do so. Is what the FLDS Church doing really any different? Does the FLDS Church have any more right than Slave owners did to hide immoral and horrendous behavior behind the LAW and what was considered acceptable by their like-minded peers? To ME the FLDS sounds suspiciously like enslavement of woman and children....didn't slave owners 100 years ago use the SAME METHODS to control their "human property" and hide behind the LAW to do so???

I have no issue with a girl of 14 CHOOSING to have sex with a man older than her IF she is expressing FREE WILL. That would be her choice without interference or coersion by OTHER INFLUENTIAL ADULTS - such as the "prophet", a teacher, a boss or a spiritual leader. WHAT MOTHER hands over her 12-14 year old daughter to a man of 50 as his 10th wife with joy? What mother approves of her 14 year old daughter having sex with ANYONE??? The 14 year old might do it (I did, and he was 21 years old) but my Mom certainly would not have approved and would have STOPPED me if she could have. If I had been taken from her at ANY age MY Mom would also not have been sitting around with her hands folded making imperceptible crying "sounds' (I didn't see many tears, just the odd sounds they obviously think is "proper" grief and mildly grimacing faces). She would have been like a wild animal and it would have been one angry, bloody, loud and violent fight. Perhaps it is forbidden to weep tears and actually cry - just like it's forbidden to laugh, raise your voice, question authority, defend your child against his/her father (or any man), watch TV, listen to the radio, read a book, magazine or newspaper, go online, cut your hair or remove ones long underwear.

I could give a Flat Flip WHAT religion the accused practices or how many consenting adults live in a "marriage". I have no business in the bedrooms of others and have huge respect for the rights of parents (of sound mind) to practice whatever lifestyle/religion they choose - with their children. If it's not criminal, I don't care what people do - it's their right to live their life and teach their children accordingly.

HOWEVER- The ONLY part religion plays in this case is that it's a religion that conveniently condones and encourages a CRIMINAL ACT and SUBORNS PERJURY and uses emotional BLACKMAIL, PSYCHOLOGICAL BRAINWASHING and PHYSICAL TORTURE to FORCE it's members to LIE CHEAT STEAL AND MANIPULATE the public, the govt and LE to HIDE THE TRUTH. Once a religion subverts FREE WILL - by FORCE - using whatever processes necessary - it becomes not a religion, but a cult, or criminal enterprise. Abuse is happening in the FLDS church - abuse of children AND of women. It's patently IGNORANT to argue it's about religion - it isn't - IT'S ABOUT ABUSE - mental, physical, emotional and sexual plain and simple.

My Opinion

EXACTLY what Flower Child has said here! :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[KT Can]

A list of other historical "wrongs" do not make FLDS "right. It really doesn't matter about wrongs perpetrated on/against Catholics, The Native Americans, Jews, African Americans or any group who has been the victim of crimes (whatever the motivation). Saying that pedophile priests were WORSE than pedophile FLDS men doesn't make EITHER right or acceptable - in the eyes of the law or the eyes of society both are reprehensible and criminal and unacceptable. Yes, 100 years ago girls married and bore children at very young ages - as soon as they reached puberty (which 100 years ago was usually at age 14-16) - and there were arranged and forced marriages too. Does that make what happened 100 years ago right for 2008? No - just like it wasn't right for SLAVE OWNERS to forcibly rape women and girls, torture and kill other human beings, starve them or work them to death - even though THE LAW SAID it was their right (and even DUTY) to do so. Is what the FLDS Church doing really any different? Does the FLDS Church have any more right than Slave owners did to hide immoral and horrendous behavior behind the LAW and what was considered acceptable by their like-minded peers? To ME the FLDS sounds suspiciously like enslavement of woman and children....didn't slave owners 100 years ago use the SAME METHODS to control their "human property" and hide behind the LAW to do so???

I have no issue with a girl of 14 CHOOSING to have sex with a man older than her IF she is expressing FREE WILL. That would be her choice without interference or coersion by OTHER INFLUENTIAL ADULTS - such as the "prophet", a teacher, a boss or a spiritual leader. WHAT MOTHER hands over her 12-14 year old daughter to a man of 50 as his 10th wife with joy? What mother approves of her 14 year old daughter having sex with ANYONE??? The 14 year old might do it (I did, and he was 21 years old) but my Mom certainly would not have approved and would have STOPPED me if she could have. If I had been taken from her at ANY age MY Mom would also not have been sitting around with her hands folded making imperceptible crying "sounds' (I didn't see many tears, just the odd sounds they obviously think is "proper" grief and mildly grimacing faces). She would have been like a wild animal and it would have been one angry, bloody, loud and violent fight. Perhaps it is forbidden to weep tears and actually cry - just like it's forbidden to laugh, raise your voice, question authority, defend your child against his/her father (or any man), watch TV, listen to the radio, read a book, magazine or newspaper, go online, cut your hair or remove ones long underwear.

I could give a Flat Flip WHAT religion the accused practices or how many consenting adults live in a "marriage". I have no business in the bedrooms of others and have huge respect for the rights of parents (of sound mind) to practice whatever lifestyle/religion they choose - with their children. If it's not criminal, I don't care what people do - it's their right to live their life and teach their children accordingly.

HOWEVER- The ONLY part religion plays in this case is that it's a religion that conveniently condones and encourages a CRIMINAL ACT and SUBORNS PERJURY and uses emotional BLACKMAIL, PSYCHOLOGICAL BRAINWASHING and PHYSICAL TORTURE to FORCE it's members to LIE CHEAT STEAL AND MANIPULATE the public, the govt and LE to HIDE THE TRUTH. Once a religion subverts FREE WILL - by FORCE - using whatever processes necessary - it becomes not a religion, but a cult, or criminal enterprise. Abuse is happening in the FLDS church - abuse of children AND of women. It's patently IGNORANT to argue it's about religion - it isn't - IT'S ABOUT ABUSE - mental, physical, emotional and sexual plain and simple.

My Opinion

I think I'm going to just stop posting and live vicariously through FlowerChild!

Excellent post, as always!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Glow]

Thank you for your very kind statement Glow :blowkiss: (as always). But I don't think we were THAT unusual in the foster system. There are many, many fine foster families out there. Unfortunately, you only hear the horror stories.

What came across as cavalier to me was "We will have to wait on the testimony", after spending days upon days harping on CPS and DPS for removing the children in the first place. An allegation has been made that there are household(s) in which a child was caused serious injury or death. Is that not frightening to you?

no. It isn't frightening to me because the "phraseology" of it all has fallen into the familiar hands of the government.

What is resolved now will be in the hands of people whose jobs depend on being elected. This situation is now completely out of our hands. It is now all about who is up for election and what they need to say

Poor children.

 

[barb0301]

no. It isn't frightening to me because the "phraseology" of it all has fallen into the familiar hands of the government.

What is resolved now will be in the hands of people whose jobs depend on being elected. This situation is now completely out of our hands. It is now all about who is up for election and what they need to say

Poor children.

So the bottom line, from what I am getting out of your posts, is what is frightening to you is the government?

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Wow.

Hello all Yep, back again for my penny-farthing's worth (global recession has reduced the value of a true 2 cents, lol... j/k)

Like so many, I've always valued and understood the freedom of worship, faith, beliefs and religion to one and all - worldwide. Reading these threads (which I do every other day), the FLDS news updates, reader comments & experience, general input and varying angles ... is SO educational, however it just flaws me at the end of the day.

(This post is not intended to be inflammatory to anyone, btw).... *BUT* depriving young children & toddlers in the year 2008 of their growth and development in this modern age is deplorable. When the "lost boys" or the young women and children flee the situation, they are jumping from the fire into the frying pan - they are ill equipped and poor in heart of the fundamentals of modern humanity. If groups of them may be "kicked out" whether through flight or exile ... then WHAT value do these folk place in the people of their "new world"?

No God, in any faith, should demean or deny babies, toddlers & children educational toys, tools and technology that will enable them to adjust mentally, spiritually and morally. It's no wonder the "lost boys" turn to drugs, alcohol and ... in some case juvenile crime. They're mixed up and have no sense of 'being' or purpose. How sad.

To me, that is the first atrocious level of abuse the elders levy against this community. Sharing moms and dads and being passed around like a bag of potatoes during a famine - for others to snatch, rear, impregnate or toss out warrants crucial addressing ... and maybe this latest 'swoop' is going to do just that. Methinks months and years are required.

Personally, I cannot *help* but feel the Pope has indirectly addressed this cause by undeniably pursuing the cause of ABUSE in children. This is my personal opinion - and I'm not Catholic, however my respect for all faiths is immense. I'm truly convinced his timing was indeed devine and determined. His call must go beyond ... and reach the ears of the world ... that these "worshipers" must not be allowed to continue. His Grace, The Pope, just didn't point fingers directly - but indirectly to *all* whom destroy the minds of God's children. And the FLDS are no exception that we humans are God's children.

Aghhhh! It horrifies me. The world cries out in horror and international headlines are made when babies to minors are "locked" in their homes, never mind in closets and bathrooms all their life.

For A MAN (or a few men) to presume control and leadership in such a manner, share females and preach that all of this is right ... among tens of thousands .... is diabolical. Therefore ... HOW can this FLDS gathering be revered or respected as a good, honorable, faithful and highly religious group? How??

Even cavemen had family-units. Every faith has a His and Hers within its revered and Holy boundaries. Not this one. It's "His and All-Of-The-Hers and their offfspring". Only primates and cats (etc) in our astonishingly beautiful animal kingdom group-off females with the male leaders. That's done to protect the longevity a natural animal-species. Even then, no 2 males impregnate the same beast over and over again. We, as human beings are different and .... so, I simply cannot respect or accept any aspect of this FLDS .... "thing". It's man-made, it's not why we're here ... it's not devine. IMHO.

Blessings to all - thank you for such excellent commentary, here (and wonderful humor at times, too, lol...). I've truly learned a lot!

God help these babies and little ones. Please...

'Night for now ... Polk

 

[Glow]

I have no issue with a girl of 14 CHOOSING to have sex with a man older than her IF she is expressing FREE WILL. USE - mental, physical, emotional and sexual plain and simple.

Really? Well you are out of step with the US government state by state and you are promoting sex at less than the legal age.

You are advocating what the FLDS are about to be prosecuted for.

 

[Ca-Sun]

I just keep meeting the same line of thought... basically a constant repetition of the "group" value system of the 5 or 6 posters here.

FYI, on just the last 5 - 6 pages, 20 people have posted. And, all of us feel it is wrong to abuse children.

 

[Glow]

So the bottom line, from what I am getting out of your posts, is what is frightening to you is the government?

No. I am not frightened by the government. It is just a entity. All of the government positions rely on the people.... if the people rouse themselves then the government has a lot to answer for. It has to be accountable. If the people do nothing then the nameless entity we call government works.

god help us all.

 

[Glow]

FYI, on just the last 5 - 6 pages, 20 people have posted. And, all of us feel it is wrong to abuse children.

I agree. I think all of us agree that it is wrong to abuse children.

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Ooops, Hi Ca-Sun ... I feel you're spot-on. I just logged back in to add that surely to Heaven, the world acknowledges that this group is depriving people of some of the basic and crucial human rights ... the foundation of such deprived rights is an existence reinforced by blocking them from even KNOWING what options exist "outside". Man oh man ... I see these women as human robots in shades of sweet-pea pastels. Grouped and grown like flowers: no voice, no chance of self-movement ... just watched, watered, pollinated - then seeded and plucked ... from life.

It's ghastly and it's abuse. IMO. I guess it'll always be my opinion because... I simply don't and won't ... get it. Its grieving.

There but for the Grace of God, go I

FYI, on just the last 5 - 6 pages, 20 people have posted. And, all of us feel it is wrong to abuse children.

 

[barb0301]

No. I am not frightened by the government. It is just a entity. All of the government positions rely on the people.... if the people rouse themselves then the government has a lot to answer for. It has to be accountable. If the people do nothing then the nameless entity we call government works.

god help us all.

I don't think in this case, you will get many people in TX to raise up and do anything. I believe that most Texans believe the government set up by the people, for the people in TX has done the correct thing in this case. It has been handled just as any other child abuse investigation has been handled, only on a larger scale, with special treatment given to the women allowed to stay with their children.

From my perspective, the government protection set up for children has worked so far in this case. I hope it continues to do so. I for one plan on holding them accountable for keeping those children safe.

 

[Ca-Sun]

Ooops, Hi Ca-Sun ... I feel you're spot-on. I just logged back in to add that surely to Heaven, the world acknowledges that this group is depriving people of some of the basic and crucial human rights ... the foundation of such deprived rights is an existence reinforced by blocking them from even KNOWING what options exist "outside". Man oh man ... I see these women as human robots in shades of sweet-pea pastels. Grouped and grown like flowers: no voice, no chance of self-movement ... just watched, watered, pollinated - then seeded and plucked ... from life.

It's ghastly and it's abuse. IMO. I guess it'll always be my opinion because... I simply don't and won't ... get it. Its grieving.

There but for the Grace of God, go I

Yep, you've got it just right! :clap: :clap:

 

[mysteriew]

I see you called me glowbug. Is that a term of affection or is it because I bug you...?:blowkiss:

I understand what you are saying about how we don't live by what happened 500 years ago. I believe though that the best indicator of the future is the past. I also understand that the FLDS don't live by what is considered "modern day." I believe these people need to change. I just don't agree that "might makes right" is the best way to change them. I think the biggest changes that have every been wrought in the world are the ones that take place when you reach peoples minds and hearts. You wont find productive change anywhere but there. To change a persons views you have to approach them with insight. You have to first understand WHY they do "what" they do.

Lets remove it from FLDS for a moment. Suppose a cruise ship wrecked and the only survivors on a nearby island was a handful of 2 - 4 year old boys and girls. They are too young to have absorbed the culturally appropriate signals from their elders on most topics, including sexual mores. Survival has honed earlier primal instincts that guide them. They eat what they can find. They sleep when it is dark. They get up when the sun shine pierces their eyelids. You get the picture...

At what age do you think that this group of kids will start discovering sex? I think you would agree that it would be when biology kicked in. With no one there to counsel them about waiting till they were more emotionally mature they would just follow the hormonal urges.[/COLOR] If you go way back in mankind's history the fact that people got about the business of multiplying as soon as they were capable, is what brought us to the point of having a full planet today.

My point is that setting a law in the books is one thing. What really goes on is another. It used to be a perception that once a girl began her period that she was considered to be of marriageable age. And that puberty is the process of change that takes place as you grow up and become physically mature and capable of having children. Menstruation / periods usually takes place between the ages of 10yo and 16yo. I remember in my little tampon kit that my mom gave me when I started my period there was a glossy pink tri fold insert that began with "So you are a woman now".... that was in 1968. Apparently I had crossed some magic line from girlhood to womanhood.

The problem here is who gets to set the "magic" line. Before 2004 the state of Texas said that magic line was the age of 14. Some feel that date was moved up to counteract this sects settling in Texas. So does that mean if a 14 yr old got pregnant in 2004 we cant prosecute her impregnator now? If she is a 16 yr old with a 2 yr old baby, was that legal then and now its not?

Here are a few random dates from history concerning that "magic line"

Bianca of Savoy, Duchess of Milan was married aged 13yo (1350), and aged 14yo when she gave birth to her eldest son, Giangaleazzo (1351).

Theodora Comnena was aged 13yo when she was married King Baldwin III of Jerusalem (1158).

Agnes of France was 12yo when, widowed, she was married to Andronicus Comnenus, Byzantine Emperor (1182).

St Elizabeth of Portugal was aged 12yo when she was married to King Denis of Portugal and gave birth to three children shortly thereafter.

and here is a famous one I am sure everyone has heard of:

Lucrezia Borgia was married to her first husband aged 13yo and bore a son within a few years.

I personally think that the more mature a woman is before she undertakes a sexual relationship the better. I don't think that the majority of low ranking FLDS are up to speed. I think their current leader has taken advantage of history and biology to mislead them. But I DO understand how he has manipulated the things I mentioned above to lead them to where they are today.

One more interesting note. If you look up the state of Texas teen birth rate of girls aged 13 - 15? It is appalling. Their stats are WORSE than the FLDS's. And they are the ones who are going to "rescue" these children? Really?

The age of puberty now is often girls at the age of 10 or younger as you have noted. Girls at the age of 10 years old are not ready to be mothers, to care for a child and be responsible for them. So how/where do you set the age of consent, knowing that a girl who engages in sex runs a risk of becoming pregnant. Age 16? How much different is that from age 15? Age 14-13? Not that far from age 10.

Laws change all the time and for various reasons. The age of consent was age 14. Now it is age 16. It wasn't a secret, it was publicized. Once the new law is enacted, if you break it after that date you are subject to prosecution. It is the law. Where do you draw the line on a law? Is it ok to steal money from a rich person, just because they don't need it to survive and you want it or need it? If you know a pedo, or a pedo has hurt your child- is it ok to kill them? (well strike that one, I know what a lot of people here will say, lol.) Is it ok to park in in the middle of a busy street just because it is close to the store you want to go in? The thing is, the law is the law. And all who live in that state are subject to that law.

In many states, the law does say children reach the age of consent at age 14. But FLDS did not choose to set up camp in one of those states. They chose to set up camp in a state that was changing the law to an age of consent of 16. And to just go ahead and break the law. When you choose to break the law, any law, you risk prosecution.

They made the choice to break the law. And if the state proves that children under the age of 16 were married in or living in the State of Texas and engaging in sex with an adult person, they will be prosecuted- whether the child consented or not. Because in the state of Texas, a child under the age of 16 cannot consent.

 

[mysteriew]

I don't think in this case, you will get many people in TX to raise up and do anything. I believe that most Texans believe the government set up by the people, for the people in TX has done the correct thing in this case. It has been handled just as any other child abuse investigation has been handled, only on a larger scale, with special treatment given to the women allowed to stay with their children.

From my perspective, the government protection set up for children has worked so far in this case. I hope it continues to do so. I for one plan on holding them accountable for keeping those children safe.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

I agree.

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Tku ... it's very tragic in today's world, isn't it? Well g'night. Will read up, as usual - many here say much of what I feel and others open my eyes (big time)... I've steered away as religious beliefs and ideas can get heated, lol. But today I felt this issue is beyond all respectable religious bounds ... it's unrighteous, IMO.

Yep, you've got it just right! :clap: :clap: