Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #4

[Trino]

The ACLU may get involved. They had a representative at the court hearings.

 

[Floh]

The ACLU may get involved. They had a representative at the court hearings.

Yes, it was posted on the page before by Native New Yorker: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/20/polygamy.sect/index.html

 

[Glow]

The age of puberty now is often girls at the age of 10 or younger as you have noted. Girls at the age of 10 years old are not ready to be mothers, to care for a child and be responsible for them. So how/where do you set the age of consent, knowing that a girl who engages in sex runs a risk of becoming pregnant. Age 16? How much different is that from age 15? Age 14-13? Not that far from age 10.


They made the choice to break the law. And if the state proves that children under the age of 16 were married in or living in the State of Texas and engaging in sex with an adult person, they will be prosecuted- whether the child consented or not. Because in the state of Texas, a child under the age of 16 cannot consent. [/COLOR]

I think that your first comment above is very interesting indeed. If we go back in history the age at which children reached puberty was fairly consistent. Now, due to hormones in food, pollution, or whatever, it seems as though SOMETHING in the environment is causing precipitous puberty. Like you mentioned, girls as young as ten! That is why it is good that laws are in place. In my personal opinion I think 30 is an ideal age to have a baby, but that is my personal opinion! My societal opinion is that it is good that we have laws to guide people since the biological lines as to when a person enters puberty seem to be blurring. Along with that, peoples moral compass seems to not be working very well either based on the number of crimes against women and children that we hear about each day. I also agree with you that people need to obey the law of the land they live in and the state has the right to prosecute them if they do not.

My only concern in all of this is HOW it is being handled. Not that it IS being handled.

 

[SuziQ]

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/21/dna-downtime-to-let-lawyers-do-prep-work/

(snips)
Getting back DNA test results in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints child custody case will take 30 days, and attorneys likely will spend that time meeting with their clients and gathering more information before the next round of hearings.
***
Walther ruled that the next round of hearings must be done by June 5 and will not be done en masse. That puts the window of time for the follow-up hearings at roughly two weeks.

 

[Vegas Bride]

After watching the women from the compound speak and now the 3 men who were on cbs this morning, I wonder if we'll ever see just 1 ever speak? It seems they keep them in groups and IMO it is to see that there are others to make sure they all stay in line. Perhaps with enough time and not always being surrounded by others there would be some brave enough to stop repeating what they've been programmed to say and have an independent thought.

VB

 

[Pepper]

My only concern in all of this is HOW it is being handled. Not that it IS being handled.

So that begs the question of HOW would YOU do it differently, and still get the desired result?

 

[mysteriew]

I think that your first comment above is very interesting indeed. If we go back in history the age at which children reached puberty was fairly consistent. Now, due to hormones in food, pollution, or whatever, it seems as though SOMETHING in the environment is causing precipitous puberty. Like you mentioned, girls as young as ten! That is why it is good that laws are in place. In my personal opinion I think 30 is an ideal age to have a baby, but that is my personal opinion! My societal opinion is that it is good that we have laws to guide people since the biological lines as to when a person enters puberty seem to be blurring. Along with that, peoples moral compass seems to not be working very well either based on the number of crimes against women and children that we hear about each day. I also agree with you that people need to obey the law of the land they live in and the state has the right to prosecute them if they do not.

My only concern in all of this is HOW it is being handled. Not that it IS being handled.

I may be incorrect but to be honest, the impression I am receiving is that you have a strong personal grievance with children's service's and that you might object to what happens no matter what they do.

 

[FlowerChild]

As controversial as they may be, the ACLU is involved to assuage the very objections that Glow keeps bringing up. So that the Govt/Courts et al cannot deny the CIVIL RIGHTS of the FLDS members. That is why I find it so amusing to see an argument that the "Govt" is perverting justice and acting on opinion or public pressure. In this country we have organizations like the ACLU - who are not controlled by religion, opinion, money or media...they act to even the playing field against judgments (and punishments) that rise not from the LAW or the constitution, but from opinion, prejudice, and personal feelings. It is the beauty of OUR COUNTRY that the ACLU and other organizations exist as public watchdogs on the courts and govt.

The ACLU may make ALL of us angry at times, but they do us all a service, they uncover and demystify the process of law and shine a spotlight on personal opinions and feelings that have NO PLACE in the system. Justice should be BLIND and it should be applied equally to FLDS members and Baptists and Athiests and Wiccans and Christians. Religion is merely the wrapping on the teachings - while it is the ACTING on the TEACHINGS that is criminal. The teachings have NOTHING to do with all of this - they are just words - it is the ACTIONS that are criminal, not the religion OR the Church. The ACLU will merely insure that the legal proceedings continue to be based on prosecuting ACTIONS - or removing children from an environment of abuse - not a "religion".

If the civil rights of the FLDS members are trampled under jack-booted feet carrying the banner of religion or even morality it will NOT help us free other victims from similarly abusive and dangerous situations. This situation has the eyes of the world, and we owe it to future victims to ensure we do NOT forget that GOD or the sex lives of ADULTS is not a part of this....and shouldn't be. ALL CITIZENS should be treated the same and have the laws applied the same, no matter WHAT faith they may or may not have or WHO (above 18 and with free-will and consent) they sleep with. We have LAWS, and if they have been violated, the perpetrators must be exposed, sanctioned or punished appropriately - we must MUST keep THAT goal - THAT outcome, held HIGH . That we may not like, understand or agree with ANYTHING ELSE the FLDS church stands for is irrelevant here. This is about the ABUSE and the PERJURY and the CRIMES that may have been committed under the banner of the church -not the church itself.

Our justice system isn't perfect - but it is still one of the BEST and FAIREST in the WORLD. Humans make mistakes - on BOTH SIDES of any issue but here in the USA, we TRY to mete out justice fairly. That innocent people have been imprisoned and even executed unjustly here is a FACT - but at least we know and acknowledge our flaws and continue to attempt to render "perfect" justice. And in this case, we (collectively) will once again make our best effort to do that again.

My Opinion

 

[philamena]

I may be incorrect but to be honest, the impression I am receiving is that you have a strong personal grievance with children's service's and that you might object to what happens no matter what they do.

Seemingly so.

 

[Glow]

So that begs the question of HOW would YOU do it differently, and still get the desired result?

I wouldn't have disrupted the children's routine and life. They could have been left on the ranch and the true problem which is the men... could have been taken to the Fort and detained. Make sure they "know" that they are going willingly...just like the woman that originally went to the fort. As a matter of fact it has been reported that the men have indeed offered to do this. Once everyone lawyered up that news disappeared, but the point is they were WILLING to go if the children and women could have remained. While they were sitting in the Fort I would have had daily LONG meetings with them concerning their future in the state of Texas. Their assets should have been frozen and a guardian put in place to pay temporary basics like the electric bills and so on.

Meanwhile back at YFZ the 500 plus support staff that is currently seeing to things could have been there seeing to things. The DNA swabbing etc could all be done just as efficiently there.Didn't I read that a team is going out to the ranch to collect DNA from the women there anyhow?

This is costing the city and state governments at last report in excess of $85,000.00 a day. That same amount of money (actually much less) would be more than adequate to maintain security around the ranch. Even at the height of the raid, LE was easily able to control who went in and out. So that is not the big issue that some might think.

The advantage of doing it this way is pretty apparent.

One, this is a patriarchal group. If the men say stay the women wont run. Once you have them complying, they in turn make sure everyone else does. Its a trickle down affect.

Two, the men KNOW that they HAVE to keep control of the money. The combination of the threat of the money drying up combined with the threat of losing their families. would bring them into line much faster than threats of charging them with child abuse or jail time.

Three, On the matter of threatening them with the "mans" laws that they have broken.... They would view going to jail for God and their beliefs as a good thing. To them that is honorable. They would feel persecuted. They would enjoy that. We don't want them to enjoy this, we want them to be fearful of noncompliance with the law, and that their way of life is in danger. That is a whole other matter to them. They feel they MUST cling to their way of life since in their minds that is what GOD wants of them and Gods law is superior to mans. Once it is down to them being unable to carry out "Gods" law unless they concede on some points....they would concede. They would do it because they would feel they "had" to in order to continue carrying out "Gods" wishes.

Never in history not even ONE time has jailing people who think they are doing something in the "name of God" worked on any significant scale. The reason for this is that the more you use the law of man on them the MORE they feel that they are pleasing God to resist. While the state or the rest of us might be fearful of jail, they don't have the same view. Of course they don't want to go to jail but if they are sent there by force then it is no longer about what they did "wrong" that got them there. At that point they are being "persecuted" and remaining rigid in their thinking and waiting things out is a wonderful thing because it is pleasing to God.

I know all of this would have been outside the current CPS protocol but this entire situation is large and new so why couldn't a "new" way of handling it been tried? I keep hearing "that is not the way its always been done" "That's not the way CPS works" etc... Well the facts are that Texas has one of the poorest performing CPS's in the entire country. I am basing this not on hearing "horror stories" but rather on going to their website as well as other governmental web sites and reading the statistics. Texas has an over burdened under staffed CPS system that has been accused of drugging children as well as losing them. Their are children in their system they cant even account for. I am not picking on Texas, heck I am from Florida and our CPS is a disaster here also. This was just NOT the environment to bring an influx of 400 children into. When CPS release a press statement they seem so proud of how well they are handling these particular children. Not once have they commented about how many children already in the system have had the attention funneled away from them because of this. Also not mentioned, how many currently occurring abuse claims are not being investigated as closely and thoroughly as they would have been before because everyone is so focused on this one case. Even if they try their best, the manpower just isn't there. The best time to think outside the box is when the box is riddled and full of holes.

 

[Glow]

I may be incorrect but to be honest, the impression I am receiving is that you have a strong personal grievance with children's service's and that you might object to what happens no matter what they do.

I dont have any impression of CPS other than what anyone would have if they took the time to check out their performance level.

quote:
"...the state of Texas has been criticized for not putting enough resources into child protective services. In 2006, following several headline-grabbing stories of deaths of children in abusive environments, the legislature approved additional funds for investigative caseworkers, but critics say it has not been enough. Additional conservatorship caseworkers are needed, according to Rebecca Lightsey, director of Texas Appleseed, a nonprofit social justice organization. The nationwide average is 25 children per caseworker, the Texas ratio is 43 to every one caseworker"
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1730471,00.html

The state of Texas creates it's own lost boys:
Foster children who “age out” of the system often lack a formal support system.
Statistically, they are at extreme risk of poverty and homelessness, victimization and criminal
involvement, illness, early childbearing, and low educational attainment. In addition, many have
emotional problems, fractured emotional and social attachments, and dysfunctional relationships
as a result of past experiences

http://www.texasappleseed.net/1HZ601!.pdf

"Although many of the problems with the Texas foster care system in 2004 have been improved, serious problems remain. In particular, the problem of increasing conservatorship caseloads and inadequate conservator caseworker staffing, which are closely related to the problem of inadequate funding, are simply getting worse, and the 80th Legislature’s efforts to address the caseworker and caseload issues were inadequate. Without a continued and much more significant effort by the state to address these problems, the children in Texas’ foster care system will suffer."

from the above link.

Before anyone from Texas gets angry/hurt or thinks that I am attacking Texas, please be assured that I am not. I live in Florida and our over burdened system is struggling also. My concerns and sympathies lay with the children. I am not going to defend a system that isnt working well. I am going to speak out accurately about what is really happening. If that makes me appear biased against CPS then what does that make most of the posters here appear as far as what has been posted about the FLDS's? Is there any bias there too perhaps?

 

[Mygirlsadie]

STOP BEATING AND RAPING THE CHILDREN & I could care less how you live, where you live, how you do your hair or what kind of dress you want to wear. Pray to whatever God you choose fit but your going to stop abusing the children or you will pay. End of story.

 

[Glow]

As controversial as they may be, the ACLU is involved to assuage the very objections that Glow keeps bringing up. So that the Govt/Courts et al cannot deny the CIVIL RIGHTS of the FLDS members. That is why I find it so amusing to see an argument that the "Govt" is perverting justice and acting on opinion or public pressure. In this country we have organizations like the ACLU - who are not controlled by religion, opinion, money or media...they act to even the playing field against judgments (and punishments) that rise not from the LAW or the constitution, but from opinion, prejudice, and personal feelings. It is the beauty of OUR COUNTRY that the ACLU and other organizations exist as public watchdogs on the courts and govt.

The ACLU may make ALL of us angry at times, but they do us all a service, they uncover and demystify the process of law and shine a spotlight on personal opinions and feelings that have NO PLACE in the system. Justice should be BLIND and it should be applied equally to FLDS members and Baptists and Athiests and Wiccans and Christians. Religion is merely the wrapping on the teachings - while it is the ACTING on the TEACHINGS that is criminal. The teachings have NOTHING to do with all of this - they are just words - it is the ACTIONS that are criminal, not the religion OR the Church. The ACLU will merely insure that the legal proceedings continue to be based on prosecuting ACTIONS - or removing children from an environment of abuse - not a "religion".

If the civil rights of the FLDS members are trampled under jack-booted feet carrying the banner of religion or even morality it will NOT help us free other victims from similarly abusive and dangerous situations. This situation has the eyes of the world, and we owe it to future victims to ensure we do NOT forget that GOD or the sex lives of ADULTS is not a part of this....and shouldn't be. ALL CITIZENS should be treated the same and have the laws applied the same, no matter WHAT faith they may or may not have or WHO (above 18 and with free-will and consent) they sleep with. We have LAWS, and if they have been violated, the perpetrators must be exposed, sanctioned or punished appropriately - we must MUST keep THAT goal - THAT outcome, held HIGH . That we may not like, understand or agree with ANYTHING ELSE the FLDS church stands for is irrelevant here. This is about the ABUSE and the PERJURY and the CRIMES that may have been committed under the banner of the church -not the church itself.

Our justice system isn't perfect - but it is still one of the BEST and FAIREST in the WORLD. Humans make mistakes - on BOTH SIDES of any issue but here in the USA, we TRY to mete out justice fairly. That innocent people have been imprisoned and even executed unjustly here is a FACT - but at least we know and acknowledge our flaws and continue to attempt to render "perfect" justice. And in this case, we (collectively) will once again make our best effort to do that again.

My Opinion

You have done a masterful job with this post flowerchild. Even though we are probably not in agreement on this case, I really appreciate what you said and I agree with you.

 

[mysteriew]

I dont have any impression of CPS other than what anyone would have if they took the time to check out their performance level.

quote:
"...the state of Texas has been criticized for not putting enough resources into child protective services. In 2006, following several headline-grabbing stories of deaths of children in abusive environments, the legislature approved additional funds for investigative caseworkers, but critics say it has not been enough. Additional conservatorship caseworkers are needed, according to Rebecca Lightsey, director of Texas Appleseed, a nonprofit social justice organization. The nationwide average is 25 children per caseworker, the Texas ratio is 43 to every one caseworker"
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1730471,00.html

The state of Texas creates it's own lost boys:
Foster children who “age out” of the system often lack a formal support system.
Statistically, they are at extreme risk of poverty and homelessness, victimization and criminal
involvement, illness, early childbearing, and low educational attainment. In addition, many have
emotional problems, fractured emotional and social attachments, and dysfunctional relationships
as a result of past experiences

http://www.texasappleseed.net/1HZ601!.pdf

"Although many of the problems with the Texas foster care system in 2004 have been improved, serious problems remain. In particular, the problem of increasing conservatorship caseloads and inadequate conservator caseworker staffing, which are closely related to the problem of inadequate funding, are simply getting worse, and the 80th Legislature’s efforts to address the caseworker and caseload issues were inadequate. Without a continued and much more significant effort by the state to address these problems, the children in Texas’ foster care system will suffer."

from the above link.

Before anyone from Texas gets angry/hurt or thinks that I am attacking Texas, please be assured that I am not. I live in Florida and our over burdened system is struggling also. My concerns and sympathies lay with the children. I am not going to defend a system that isnt working well. I am going to speak out accurately about what is really happening. If that makes me appear biased against CPS then what does that make most of the posters here appear as far as what has been posted about the FLDS's? Is there any bias there too perhaps?

If I may be so bold as to ask, why do you feel that the FLDS deserves special privileges? What sets them above the rest of the population? Yes, I feel for every child who has to be removed from their parents due to suspected abuse. But like a child getting a shot, no matter that it causes distress, sometimes it has to be done.

Whether the "fort" is used for housing the men or the women and children, the cost will be the same. Whether the "fort" or the compound is used for the women and children, the cost will be the same or more- because the number of workers would probably have to be increased due to the fact that the women and children would be separated. The men's civil rights could be considered violated if they were required to stay at the "fort" because they wouldn't be able to do their work (at the compound), they would be considered detained because they weren't free to go to their homes or anywhere else of their choosing. All without a crime proven in court.

In addition there is the psychological issues. The temple is a tangible sign of the leaders presence, even if they aren't physically present. The women and children would be faced with that each day. Potentially it could cause further intimidation of the women and children.

And of the "poor" women, there are some indications that some of the women may be involved in the abuse of the children, and publically they have been defending the sexual abuse. So as far as "poor" women, I think that at some point we may be seeing some of the women named as abusers also. So putting them in their own homes with their children also puts the children at risk.

 

[TGIRecovered]

I may be incorrect but to be honest, the impression I am receiving is that you have a strong personal grievance with children's service's and that you might object to what happens no matter what they do.

This is the impression I have had for some time.

I haven't commented in part due to an annoying keyboard problem, but also I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. This subject is very hard to deal with if you have been touched personally by some disturbing aspect of it, I would think.

I have been proud of the civil way you all have handled it. The posts I have read have been respectful and considerate for the most part, and that is hard to do sometimes!

Susan

 

[CyberLaw]

These women will do what ever they are ordered to do. Be it "abuse" a child, lie, cheat, whatever. They are "brainwashed" into this thinking by their environment, and the men of this "cult".

DNA will be quite shocking. With the children away from the suspected abusers, the children may feel "free" to share details of their lives.

 

[FlowerChild]

So, because they cannot do this removal to the satisfaction of ALL they shouldn't do it? Since when does the current state of CPS in TX give them a "PASS" on removing 416 children they have evidence are endangered? So, were they just supposed to say "sorry can't do it, we can't handle our current cases so maybe in a few YEARS when we get THOSE straightened out you can give us a call"?

There isn't a PERFECT CPS in the WORLD. Mistakes are made- BUT that doesn't mean we should just STOP TRYING to protect children.

And NO, they cannot leave the children on THE RANCH. That is psychologically intimidating to the children - yeah, lets just leave them in the place they have been abused at WITH the women who in many cases refused to defend them from the abuse. The kids MUST BE REMOVED to a "neutral area" where they can be evaluated in an environment outside the one the abuse occurred in. And YES, they MUST BE REMOVED from their "mothers" (whether those "mothers" are their bio mothers or not remains to be seen, BTW) because the person the child calls "mother" may or may NOT be the actual birth mother of the child. Children are not chattel, the FLDS cannot just SWAP kids like hats because they feel like it. For all CPS knows half the kids may belong to no-one at the ranch - to leave even ONE CHILD in the care of an unrelated person under allegations of abuse would indeed be criminal.

Children are like willows, they can withstand an incredible amount of force without breaking. Is it sad, yes, is it going to damage them forever? Doubtful...the risk of leaving the children in an environment where children are considered LABOR and abuse is TAUGHT and LIVED daily is much more dangerous than separating them from their "mothers" and making them eat Fruit Loops and play with toys. Babies are removed form the breast every day without any serious issues - breast feeding is great, but not key to the survival of the baby - if the Mom got ILL we wouldn't be expecting her to breastfeed - but for the baby, it's the same result...removal from the breast. If one case is acceptable, the other is too.

This situation would strain the resources of ANY state. That should NOT be an excuse NOT TO DO IT though. The children will be fine and will be returned to the bio parents, if such a relationship can be determined and BOTH parents are found to be innocent of wrongdoing. If NOT, the children will be placed elsewhere and "gasp" exposed to the infidels out here in the "world" - probably ruining them in the eyes of the FLDS Church, but joyfully, NOT in the eyes of the greater society. Those children are WANTED here - even if they chuck the long underwear and spend their days being educated and PLAYING with toys.

As to their future, I am certain that enough LDS Church families can be found to take every single child - in family groups as large as 20 - I know MANY who have adopted MULTIPLE CHILDREN and already have large families - and they will be perfectly prepared to deal with the specific issues of faith and polygamy that may arise in the raising and counseling of the children in the future. Again, I may not agree with the tenets of the Mormon Church myself, but I can put that aside to gain what is BEST FOR THE CHILDREN in this case. The KEY HERE is what is BEST FOR THE CHILDREN - and it may be that removing ALL of them from their FLDS parents (who are obviously controlled by the "Prophet" like puppets) is the BEST OPTION for the CHILDREN. I really do not care what is best for the parents if they have abused those children in ANY WAY - even if it was only that they turned a blind eye to abuse or supported and condoned psychological and emotional abuse. The CHILDREN are my ONLY concern here. What is BEST FOR THEM? And an ENVIRONMENT can be toxic - even if the food is organic and thoughts are "pure".

Leaving even a single infant in the hands of a mother who is unable to defend or protect that child against abuse of ANY KIND is WRONG! And that has NOTHING to do with the FLDS religion - but only the ACTIONS of the mother (and father) - actions made in the NAME of religion - but carried out by PEOPLE. The key here ist that this is INSTITUTIONALIZED, PROGRAMMED, REWARDED ABUSE and that makes ANY ADULT in the organization a potential abuser. the children come FIRST and MUST BE REMOVED from ALL of them and from the ENVIRONMENT OF ABUSE...PERIOD.

My Opinion

 

[TGIRecovered]

I just want to add that I have lived in Texas all of my 40 something years, and the biggest problem I have seen with CPS and the courts is that they return children to abusive and terrifying situations far, far more often than they step on parent's rights.

In my opinion, CPS needs many more better qualified workers and spit-fire lawyers, and get rid of all those judges who are more concerned with appeasing the ACLU than they are with protecting the children and convicting their abusers.

Susan

 

[TGIRecovered]

Flowerchild,:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

nice post!

Susan

 

[Glow]

"A young couple sat directly in front of me. The woman, Lori Jessop, 25, is staying in the shelter at the Wells Fargo Pavilion with her three children. She was brought to court today to testify about her marriage and willingness to protect her children.

Her husband is 27. When she arrived at court, she found him among the crowd and slipped into the bench beside him. I realized they had not seen each other in two weeks.

He put his arm around her, held her close through hours of testimony. Her rubbed her back at one point. They whispered back and forth. She is an EMT and told the judge that she would take their children -- ages 4 to 11 months -- and move off the ranch and go to work if she could stay with them.

After the judge issued her ruling, the Steeds stood and stared at one another, a look of shock on their faces.

I have no idea what becomes of her now, whether the state will let her continue to stay with their children. I suppose not."

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/