Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #5

[mysteriew]

Molly, I am going to be going to bed. But on this old article you might want to check out the comments and links provided by "FlowerFlorida", it looks like some of the links we may not have- but I haven't time to look at them.
BTW, the article says the DNA results may not be in until June 5th.

Also, the commenter further down, "w8ting" provides more info on the auto accident.
"Allen Rulon Jeffs, age 3, son of Isaac and Zevanda Jeffs and a passenger in the vehicle, was pronounced dead at the Schleicher County Medical Center by Dr. Pat Johnson."
Another three year old critical, and another three year old as well as the woman driver was treated and released.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/21/breaking-news-dna-results-on-sect-children-may-5/

 

[mollymalone]

Molly, I am going to be going to bed. But on this old article you might want to check out the comments and links provided by "FlowerFlorida", it looks like some of the links we may not have- but I haven't time to look at them.
BTW, the article says the DNA results may not be in until June 5th.

Also, the commenter further down, "w8ting" provides more info on the auto accident.
"Allen Rulon Jeffs, age 3, son of Isaac and Zevanda Jeffs and a passenger in the vehicle, was pronounced dead at the Schleicher County Medical Center by Dr. Pat Johnson."
Another three year old critical, and another three year old as well as the woman driver was treated and released.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/21/breaking-news-dna-results-on-sect-children-may-5/

G'nite! I'll ck out those links, thanks!
On that link there was a comment about the woman possibly being another escapee and FLDSExpert posted this:

FLDSExpert on April 21, 2008 at 10:22 p.m.
No, Barbara Joy Jessop was not trying to escape. She was distracted by children, looked up and hit a boulder. The child that survived was injured by the air bag deploying. The mother of the dead child is Zevanda Jeffs. Zavenda was originally married to Rulon Jeffs, then re-assigned to Ron Rohback (the father of the child). When Ron was kicked out she was then re-assigned to Leroy Jeffs, until he was "kicked." She was then assigned to Isaac Jeffs. Barbara Joy Jeffs is also a wife of Isaac.

Posted by FLDSExpert on April 21, 2008 at 10:30 p.m.
Sadly, the father of the dead child, Ron, was not allowed to go to the funeral to say his last farewells, because he still being shunned.

 

[Truly]

The FLDS attorney Parker

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00364.htm

Suzan Mazur: You've got Rodney Parker, FLDS's registered agent for the FLDS corporations. He's a former Bush I Associate Deputy Attorney General who was on the immediate staff of the Deputy Attorney General of the US from 1988-989. Parker's now an attorney with the Utah law firm Snow, Christensen and Martineau, which represents the state of Utah.

Holy chit. No wonder they never prosecuted.:furious:

Last week on these pages I cited a polygamy political coverup, which includes US Senator Orrin Hatch (Rep-UT), who is on record as condoning polygamy.

Says TAP co-founder Rowenna Erickson: "If Senator Hatch is supporting Utah's Attorney General Mark Shurleff's Safety Net Program, then there is a good chance federal funding is being used to enable polygamy and its crimes."l

Suzan Mazur: Why do you think he has not been more vocal on the issue?
Bob Curran: I don't think he has had to be. He's had a lot of cover.
Suzan Mazur: He counts on votes there in Washington County where the polygamists are most concentrated in Utah?
Bob Curran: His constituents and Senator Bob Bennett's, of course, are in Hildale, in Washington County, Utah. [The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints polygamists are headquartered on the Utah-Arizona border and incorporated in Utah as the United Effort Plan.] FLDS Colorado City, Arizona headquarters are part of Mohave County -- that would be Senator John McCain's and Senator John Kyl's territory. But they vote as a block there. They vote the way their prophet tells them.
Suzan Mazur: But they do vote.
Bob Curran: Oh yes they do. And there's a considerable block of votes for a candidate too in a small county.
Suzan Mazur: What's the Utah-Arizona FLDS population, 10,000 or so? Bob Curran: Exactly. What's interesting to me is why no one's really delving into the finances of it. They have tremendous resources in the polygamist community. They have all kinds of businesses. Interlocking directorships. Subsidiaries. They have crews [construction, trucking, etc.] going in all directions.

Suzan Mazur: You think campaign contributions have been going to Hatch and Bennett, also on the other side of the border to McCain and Kyl? They're not much on record about the polygamy issue, I've noticed. Bob Curran: That's right.

Suzan Mazur: McCain ducked two polygamy interviews with me - once for the cover of the Weekend Financial Times and then again for Scoop and CounterPunch.
Bob Curran: I don't know that much about the state of Arizona. But in the state of Utah there are only two reasons why the abuses could have gone on for so many years without being addressed. And this includes child protective services -- which falls under the prosecuting attorney's office. But most importantly, politicians.
Senator Hatch has been a very, very important senator.
So there are only two reasons why these abuses could have been allowed to go on all of this time. And that's if there were campaign contributions coming out of Hildale-Colorado City that would ensure no investigation, no one looking into the dirty little corners out there.
The other reason is that people in positions of authority - the sheriff, prosecuting attorney, etc. are members of the LDS church. And regardless of what the church says phony, baloney about excommunicating polygamists - all of these officials simply did not do their jobs for years and years and years. And in the wonderful state of family values, they sat on their hands. They knew these horrible terrible abuses were going on out there and chose to do nothing about them.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

NEW TOTAL 462 kids

"As of Friday, the investigation had grown to 462 children as state officials determined that dozens of FLDS mothers thought to be adults are actually minors."

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/27/sect-story-entails-new-perils/

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Holy chit. No wonder they never prosecuted.:furious:

lord ... Sweep it under the carpet ... with everything else that's been been "swept under the carpet". Can you image that "carpet" nowadays? It's no longer science-project of debris under there. It's land-reclamation that's created a hidden island accumulated by filth, lies, corruption, cults, drugs, guns, scandal, denial, money and blackmail. It's a global island being built, too. Ugh.

Lol, and this thread spreads faster than the Great Fire of London! Can't keep up and only 2 days ago I thought I was atop of it all.

 

[Seven]

K, I am going to play devil's advocate here and say that I would like to see cold hard proof that the way of life they are accustomed to is harmful. Again, I am not advocating for it, but I have seen a lot of speculation as to what life is like inside of the compound or the sect itself, but I have not see much that applies to this case, except evidence of underage marriage which I find personally abhorrent...there are lots of cultures outside of the US that function otherwise however.

Waterboarding babies, and the like-of course heinous behavior that needs to be punished severely and if the belief behind it is common, then the belief should be unlearned. . . .

I am very scared about generalizing the need to de-program beliefs that we don't like...i am not expressing myself well...does anyone understand what I mean?

Hi, believe09!

How about their belief in a practice that is against the law in the USA?

In addition to the fact that POLYGAMY is a human rights violation (according to the 1979 UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, which defines discrimination against women as: ". . . any distinction, exclusion or restriction made on the basis of sex which has the effect or purpose of impairing or nullifying the recognition, enjoyment or exercise by women, irrespective of their marital status, on a basis of equality of men and women, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, civil or any other field.")*** . . . in addition to that .......

I can think of 6 aspects in which "the way of life they are accustomed to is harmful."
Can you think of ways in which a single one of them is not harmful?

1. Training from birth 50% of the children that they are subservient to, lesser than, must obey the other 50%.

2. Not educating children (except for a select few) past the 8th grade.

3. Training from birth that a man must have a minimum of 3 wives in order to attain heaven, thereby leaving at least 2/3 of the male population without a wife and without any hope of heaven.

4. Training from birth that no matter what she does or doesn't do in life, a female cannot attain heaven unless her "husband" says she can.

5. The inbreeding in this closed society (50% are descendants from the original 2 families--Jessop and Barlow @ 1930) has produced an incomparably high incidence of a serious birth defect known as "fumarase deficiency."

6. Being expected to give birth to one child per year.

Thank you.
Seven

*** http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00244.htm

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Sorry, All. This has probably been posted a few times ... I just thought I'd submit in again on thread # 5 :crazy:

Snipped, edited and pasted from google:

CULT http://www.google.com/search?q=mean...avclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enAE224AE226

1.
a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b. The followers of such a religion or sect.

2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

5.
a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
b. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

[Latin cultus, worship, from past participle of colere, to cultivate; see kwel-1 in Indo-European roots.]
cultic, cultish adj. cultism n. cultist n.


As a Noun

1. cult - followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
2. cult - an interest followed with exaggerated zeal.
3. cult - followers of an unorthodox, extremist, or a falsely-created religion or sect; often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader
4. cult - a religion or sect that is generally considered to be unorthodox, extremist, or false;
5. cult - a system of religious beliefs and rituals; "devoted to the cultus of the Blessed Virgin"

IMO: That criminal , Jeffs & "cronies" have, by their own devices, cultivated an illegal culture by depriving thousands of women their identity and rights, initially through false and methodical brainwashing followed by severe "sexual hypnosis" and have ordered them to instill this CULT's ways, unrecognized laws and way of life to their babies and children; outcasting young boys and the gross sexual, mental and social abuse of young girls.

The seemingly harsh "transition" is not the fault of American Society. It's because of these cult-leaders. It's unfair to the young, yes. But it has to be stopped and the pain of release is part of a cleaner, safer and more loving future for them all.

Options as to "how" to go about this are limited; nevertheless the children have been saved from further abuse. Some women welcome the :escape from it all". That's a positive step, IMO. The men? They have Jeffs and Co Inc (Inc for incarcerated) to thank. This is a MAN-made, unholy and immoral, defunct system. It is not Godly. Therein lies the real truth. I feel the authorities will be patient, understanding in their approach to these victims, and do so in a kind and responsible way - especially as the whole country is on the edge of their seats, watching.

Very sad status.

 

[golfmom]

G'nite! I'll ck out those links, thanks!
On that link there was a comment about the woman possibly being another escapee and FLDSExpert posted this:

FLDSExpert on April 21, 2008 at 10:22 p.m.
No, Barbara Joy Jessop was not trying to escape. She was distracted by children, looked up and hit a boulder. The child that survived was injured by the air bag deploying. The mother of the dead child is Zevanda Jeffs. Zavenda was originally married to Rulon Jeffs, then re-assigned to Ron Rohback (the father of the child). When Ron was kicked out she was then re-assigned to Leroy Jeffs, until he was "kicked." She was then assigned to Isaac Jeffs. Barbara Joy Jeffs is also a wife of Isaac.

Posted by FLDSExpert on April 21, 2008 at 10:30 p.m.
Sadly, the father of the dead child, Ron, was not allowed to go to the funeral to say his last farewells, because he still being shunned.

Molly, I know that this is a grown adult woman, but I feel pity for her shuffled about being reassigned over and over.

It really struck me hard how women aren't even allowed their own salvation. By their beliefs, women's souls are hitched to their father/husband and only he permits them entry into heaven in the afterlife. If you don't stay sweet and please your husband/father, off to hell you'll go.

 

[Vegas Bride]

Molly, I know that this is a grown adult woman, but I feel pity for her shuffled about being reassigned over and over.

It really struck me hard how women aren't even allowed their own salvation. By their beliefs, women's souls are hitched to their father/husband and only he permits them entry into heaven in the afterlife. If you don't stay sweet and please your husband/father, off to hell you'll go.

The way it's been explained to me, the Mormon religion has it where the wife also is called into heaven by her husband, only getting to go there if he calls her. He does not call her by her legal name, but by her secret name which is given to her when they are married.
Can you imagine the power a man holds, he'd be able to tell his wife any time he felt like it that he would not call for her and she'd be denied heaven.

One thing I've wondered about is, what happens to a woman (young girl) if after they marry she does not cooporate and begin producing children? There is bound to be some who would have some type of fertility problems.

VB

 

[southcitymom]

Hi, believe09!

How about their belief in a practice that is against the law in the USA?

In addition to the fact that POLYGAMY is a human rights violation (according to the 1979 UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, which defines discrimination against women as: ". . . any distinction, exclusion or restriction made on the basis of sex which has the effect or purpose of impairing or nullifying the recognition, enjoyment or exercise by women, irrespective of their marital status, on a basis of equality of men and women, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, civil or any other field.")*** . . . in addition to that .......

I can think of 6 aspects in which "the way of life they are accustomed to is harmful."
Can you think of ways in which a single one of them is not harmful?

1. Training from birth 50% of the children that they are subservient to, lesser than, must obey the other 50%.

2. Not educating children (except for a select few) past the 8th grade.

3. Training from birth that a man must have a minimum of 3 wives in order to attain heaven, thereby leaving at least 2/3 of the male population without a wife and without any hope of heaven.

4. Training from birth that no matter what she does or doesn't do in life, a female cannot attain heaven unless her "husband" says she can.

5. The inbreeding in this closed society (50% are descendants from the original 2 families--Jessop and Barlow @ 1930) has produced an incomparably high incidence of a serious birth defect known as "fumarase deficiency."

6. Being expected to give birth to one child per year.

Thank you.
Seven

*** http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00244.htm

This is a noble post, Seven, and the intentions behind it honorable, I am sure. But there is danger in this way of thinking.

If we agree with the definition of discrimination against women posited in your post, many would say that mainstream Christian churches who do not allow women to hold positions of spiritual leadership in the church because the Bible says woman cannot teach men are doing this. Others would say that mainstream Christian churches who tell women it is a sin to use certain methods of birth control are doing this.

We can move from religion to religion and, in each one, we can find practices that some consider dangerous or abusive. How about performing a painful and medically unecessary medical procedure on the most sensitive part of an infant boy's body?

In a number of religions, homosexuals are told from birth that they cannot hope to go to heaven unless they deny an intrinisc part of their bodies and souls. This sounds similar to FDLS's contenion that "....a man must have a minimum of 3 wives in order to attain heaven"

In my own church, underage people drink alcoholic communion wine every Sunday if they want and their parents allow it. This is clearly a practice and belief that is against the law in the USA.

I could go on and on - and I will if you want me to. My point is not to denigrate the practices of other faiths. My point is to say every faith in this world has some screwed up stuff about it in the eyes of some people (and its probably not unusual that the people who see these screwed up practices are not a member of that particluar faith).

I'll bet I could also find 6 aspects of the way of life that they are accustomed to that are beneficial to the FLDS - perhaps could even be beneficial to the rest of us.

Who gets to decide and based on what criterion that certain faiths are wrong and dangerous for XYZ reasons? This doesn't sound like religious freedom to me.

Please do not read this post to intimate that I believe adults anywhere (including in the FLDS) should have sex with and/or abuse children and not face the legal consequences of that. I clearly think that's wrong. In another thread, an Amish has been arrested for abuse and incest (and rumors of rampant abuse and incest have plaqued their faith and community for years), but we haven't gotten around to dismantling them yet.

What's happening in Texas to the FLDS may eventually be the best thing that ever happened to that community. But it should also scare the hell out of anyone who truly believes in religious freedom.

 

[golfmom]

Hi, believe09!

How about their belief in a practice that is against the law in the USA?

In addition to the fact that POLYGAMY is a human rights violation (according to the 1979 UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, which defines discrimination against women as: ". . . any distinction, exclusion or restriction made on the basis of sex which has the effect or purpose of impairing or nullifying the recognition, enjoyment or exercise by women, irrespective of their marital status, on a basis of equality of men and women, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, civil or any other field.")*** . . . in addition to that .......

I can think of 6 aspects in which "the way of life they are accustomed to is harmful."
Can you think of ways in which a single one of them is not harmful?

1. Training from birth 50% of the children that they are subservient to, lesser than, must obey the other 50%.

2. Not educating children (except for a select few) past the 8th grade.

3. Training from birth that a man must have a minimum of 3 wives in order to attain heaven, thereby leaving at least 2/3 of the male population without a wife and without any hope of heaven.

4. Training from birth that no matter what she does or doesn't do in life, a female cannot attain heaven unless her "husband" says she can.

5. The inbreeding in this closed society (50% are descendants from the original 2 families--Jessop and Barlow @ 1930) has produced an incomparably high incidence of a serious birth defect known as "fumarase deficiency."

6. Being expected to give birth to one child per year.

Thank you.
Seven

*** http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00244.htm

Seven, I had to re-read your post several times to absorb it. Outstanding job! I know that some would like to separate the idea of polygamy versus child abuse. But, I strongly believe that polygamy IS abusive and you did a much better job at explaining why it is abusive than I've ever come close to.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[IrishMist]

This is a noble post, Seven, and the intentions behind it honorable, I am sure. But there is danger in this way of thinking.

If we agree with the definition of discrimination against women posited in your post, many would say that mainstream Christian churches who do not allow women to hold positions of spiritual leadership in the church because the Bible says woman cannot teach men are doing this. Others would say that mainstream Christian churches who tell women it is a sin to use certain methods of birth control are doing this.

We can move from religion to religion and, in each one, we can find practices that some consider dangerous or abusive. How about performing a painful and medically unecessary medical procedure on the most sensitive part of an infant boy's body?

In a number of religions, homosexuals are told from birth that they cannot hope to go to heaven unless they deny an intrinisc part of their bodies and souls. This sounds similar to FDLS's contenion that "....a man must have a minimum of 3 wives in order to attain heaven"

In my own church, underage people drink alcoholic communion wine every Sunday if they want and their parents allow it. This is clearly a practice and belief that is against the law in the USA.

I could go on and on - and I will if you want me to. My point is not to denigrate the practices of other faiths. My point is to say every faith in this world has some screwed up stuff about it in the eyes of some people (and its probably not unusual that the people who see these screwed up practices are not a member of that particluar faith).

I'll bet I could also find 6 aspects of the way of life that they are accustomed to that are beneficial to the FLDS - perhaps could even be beneficial to the rest of us.

Who gets to decide and based on what criterion that certain faiths are wrong and dangerous for XYZ reasons? This doesn't sound like religious freedom to me.

Please do not read this post to intimate that I believe adults anywhere (including in the FLDS) should have sex with and/or abuse children and not face the legal consequences of that. I clearly think that's wrong. In another thread, an Amish has been arrested for abuse and incest (and rumors of rampant abuse and incest have plaqued their faith and community for years), but we haven't gotten around to dismantling them yet.

What's happening in Texas to the FLDS may eventually be the best thing that ever happened to that community. But it should also scare the hell out of anyone who truly believes in religious freedom.

Excellent post, SCM. :clap:

 

[believe09]

While I understand and applaud the defense of women's and children's rights being advocated, I am wondering if these women and children feel "saved" or if they feel that everything they have ever been taught about the secular world is true...and that they are now justified in whatever action they take to retrieve their children. Child abuse, discrimination against women and sex abuse happen in the secular world as well, inside organized religion (outside of FLDS) as well as outside of it. As SCM so succinctly put, there are probably bits and pieces of many life styles that I would find distasteful or harmful-the question is should children be swept away from the world as they know it because a different cultural standard is being forced upon them? Perhaps the answer will ultimately be yes-time will tell. But I can't even begin to tell you how I would panic if this had happened to me...

 

[yolorado]

http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid:458465

"on March 2, a Utah state judge ordered Jeffs and other FLDS leaders to pay an $8.8 million judgment to the FLDS' United Effort Plan Trust, designed to hold the wealth of all FLDS members. The trust was taken over, and the state appointed a special fiduciary to review its assets after evidence suggested Jeffs and his cronies were raiding its assets. The FLDS leaders who are named trustees failed to respond to a lawsuit filed by court-appointed fiduciary Bruce Wisan, the Deseret Morning News reports, prompting the court to enter the multimillion-dollar judgment. Whether Wisan will be able to collect the funds and restore the trust is unknown: Shortly after Wisan took over, entire buildings, along with farm equipment and other tangible assets, began disappearing from the FLDS stronghold known as Short Creek, twin towns straddling the Arizona-Utah border. The UEP is land-rich, with about $110 million in assets, but cash-poor – indeed, most of the cash has reportedly disappeared, as have the UEP trustees."

Wonder if the UEP could sue for the Texas assets too? Shouldn't the Texas properties be under the same administration as the Hilldale/Colorado City assets? Basically the same people were or are running the show for FLDS at both places. It's the same organization. Can't the Texas assets be tapped to pay the UEP's legal obligations? Same with any other FLDS assets as well. Also, seems as if an organization with bazillions in assets and women on welfare is probably committing welfare fraud. Shouldn't the states involved be going after these people demanding restitution? Are the profitable businessness controlled by FLDS members paying taxes? If not, why not? Has the FLDS been trying to pass off all its operatons as tax exempt church operations? How could that be justified? If women have claimed earned income tax credit or head of household to shelter income from tax (the same way they've apparently claimed welfare benefits) should they be allowed those benefits? Shouldn't the IRS at least look into it? Might the IRS want to look into whether or not it should go after this organization for tax evasion and fraud? Also, if FLDS businesses are using child labor, why are they not being procesecuted for that and then shut down?

 

[Floh]

Welcome to websleuths, yolorado.

 

[golfmom]

Wonder if the UEP could sue for the Texas assets too? Shouldn't the Texas properties be under the same administration as the Hilldale/Colorado City assets? Basically the same people were or are running the show for FLDS at both places. It's the same organization. Can't the Texas assets be tapped to pay the UEP's legal obligations? Same with any other FLDS assets as well. Also, seems as if an organization with bazillions in assets and women on welfare is probably committing welfare fraud. Shouldn't the states involved be going after these people demanding restitution? Are the profitable businessness controlled by FLDS members paying taxes? If not, why not? Has the FLDS been trying to pass off all its operatons as tax exempt church operations? How could that be justified? If women have claimed earned income tax credit or head of household to shelter income from tax (the same way they've apparently claimed welfare benefits) should they be allowed those benefits? Shouldn't the IRS at least look into it? Might the IRS want to look into whether or not it should go after this organization for tax evasion and fraud? Also, if FLDS businesses are using child labor, why are they not being procesecuted for that and then shut down?

Welcome to Websleuths yolorado. I've wondered about a number of the same issues that you've questioned.

1. The trust has specific stated goals and most of them revolving around housing. Since the trust is non-profit, it's not as easy as you would think to change the stated goals and mission. Here's a link to their website: http://www.ueptrust.com/

2. I think the UEP will have a very good case against the assets at Eldorado. Also, I think that the administrators are currently drooling over the possibility of getting their hands on paperwork that was taken from the compound. Just a point of distinction, the UEP and FLDS are NOT the same organization. Although, they used to be. The UEP is currently being administered to benefit the members/former members of the FLDS.

3. The welfare fraud is a very good question. Taxpayers in Utah and Arizona have been financially supporting this group for many years. There seems to be a reluctance in those states and I only have to wonder if it goes back to the Short Creek Raid. Politicians aren't keen on sticking their necks out if they think their heads will get chopped off.

4. My understanding is that the businesses have not had any issues with tax fraud. AND, that neither the FLDS church nor YFZ, L.L.C. have applied for non-profit status.

5. Regarding child labor laws or IRS fraud again, I think that it comes down to it has been a comfortable arrangement for more than 50 years to look the other way.

 

[southcitymom]

Welcome to websleuths, yolorado.

Yes, welcome!

 

[FlowerChild]

While I understand and applaud the defense of women's and children's rights being advocated, I am wondering if these women and children feel "saved" or if they feel that everything they have ever been taught about the secular world is true...and that they are now justified in whatever action they take to retrieve their children. Child abuse, discrimination against women and sex abuse happen in the secular world as well, inside organized religion (outside of FLDS) as well as outside of it. As SCM so succinctly put, there are probably bits and pieces of many life styles that I would find distasteful or harmful-the question is should children be swept away from the world as they know it because a different cultural standard is being forced upon them? Perhaps the answer will ultimately be yes-time will tell. But I can't even begin to tell you how I would panic if this had happened to me...

People who are abused (and brainwashed) often DO NOT feel "Saved" when they are abruptly removed from the environment in which the abuse and brainwashing occurred. The very fact that people cling to such an environment with fervor is a symptom of the "sickness" to which they have become accustomed. It's like the Nazis - if everyone is doing it, if you are rewarded for doing it, if you are taught to do it and educated in the "facts" as to WHY doing it is VITAL to your survival and being at the TOP of the heap and not the bottom - it is SCARY to change. The KEY to getting people to do unnatural things is to make them believe that the ALTERNATIVE is so unbearable and immoral and so frightening that they will keep doing something they feel in their heart is wrong to avoid having to FIND OUT THE TRUTH.

The idea of demonizing those you oppose to incite the society at large to eliminate them FOR YOU isn't new. Old as time actually. The FLDS is merely a small "mini-model" of a larger society. It's VITAL that the FLDS leaders create an environment of fear and ignorance so that they can maintain CONTROL. It's so much easier to "eliminate" a HUMAN BEING if you accept that they are LESS THAN HUMAN already - or that they are so FLAWED they aren't WORTHY of saving. The FLDS has spent 100 years creating an island of hate and exclusion within the larger society - OF COURSE the members are going to fear the unknown OUTSIDE their bubble - and OF COURSE they will FIGHT to go back to what is easy and known and familiar. They don't fear US so much as they fear uncertainty and FREEDOM. When you have NO CONTROL, you live a RISK FREE LIFE. Nothing you do is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY - you risk nothing, decide nothing, own NOTHING - not even your own mind and body. It's very intoxicating really - no matter WHAT you do, it isn't your fault - so long as you do not think, do not question and just abdicate everything to someone else, life is pretty perfect. YOU AREN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BAD STUFF - Whew!

Of COURSE there will be FEELINGS- feelings of FEAR and CONFUSION and PAIN when the members have the whole system pulled out from under them and are left having to form an independent thought - or choose a new toothpaste. Does that mean we shouldn't do it??? Isn't the whole IDEA in this to ensure these folks CAN and DO choose their lifestyle and faith . We are giving them options, not taking them AWAY!

Turn things around and look at it THIS WAY
Think about it - We are faced with WOMEN (Adults) who have NEVER chosen their own attire, their own hairstyle or made so much as a SINGLE DECISION ON THEIR OWN. If you question the "rightness" of FORCING these women and children to change their THINKING (not their religion) you must examine whether the change we are advocating is one that affects the RELIGION or LIFESTYLE...?

It ISN'T.

ALL we are asking these women to do is MAKE DECISIONS THEMSELVES based on sound (lawful) information and facts. They may continue to dress, worship and live the way they have...ALL they must do is learn to THINK for themselves and MAKE SOUND CHOICES for themselves and their minor children. And yet they are unable to commit to doing so --- FROM FEAR?? GMAB

These ladies are afraid of THINKING....brainwashed into believing they are inferior and stupid and unworthy...brainwashed not by US, but by their own leaders and spouses. All we are doing now is asking them to THINK...not forsake God or wear make-up or ANY of that...just THINK and NOT ask their HUSBAND or a MAN to THINK for them.

Man, we are horrible...how can we persecute these poor women so??? Destroy their lives and family with THOUGHTS??? EDUCATION?? LOGIC???

AND BTW, CHANGE is ALWAYS SCARY - for ALL HUMANS!

My Opinion

 

[Seven]

This is a noble post, Seven, and the intentions behind it honorable, I am sure. But there is danger in this way of thinking.

If we agree with the definition of discrimination against women posited in your post, many would say that mainstream Christian churches who do not allow women to hold positions of spiritual leadership in the church because the Bible says woman cannot teach men are doing this. Others would say that mainstream Christian churches who tell women it is a sin to use certain methods of birth control are doing this.

We can move from religion to religion and, in each one, we can find practices that some consider dangerous or abusive. How about performing a painful and medically unecessary medical procedure on the most sensitive part of an infant boy's body?

In a number of religions, homosexuals are told from birth that they cannot hope to go to heaven unless they deny an intrinisc part of their bodies and souls. This sounds similar to FDLS's contenion that "....a man must have a minimum of 3 wives in order to attain heaven"

In my own church, underage people drink alcoholic communion wine every Sunday if they want and their parents allow it. This is clearly a practice and belief that is against the law in the USA.

I could go on and on - and I will if you want me to. My point is not to denigrate the practices of other faiths. My point is to say every faith in this world has some screwed up stuff about it in the eyes of some people (and its probably not unusual that the people who see these screwed up practices are not a member of that particluar faith).

I'll bet I could also find 6 aspects of the way of life that they are accustomed to that are beneficial to the FLDS - perhaps could even be beneficial to the rest of us.

Who gets to decide and based on what criterion that certain faiths are wrong and dangerous for XYZ reasons? This doesn't sound like religious freedom to me.

Please do not read this post to intimate that I believe adults anywhere (including in the FLDS) should have sex with and/or abuse children and not face the legal consequences of that. I clearly think that's wrong. In another thread, an Amish has been arrested for abuse and incest (and rumors of rampant abuse and incest have plaqued their faith and community for years), but we haven't gotten around to dismantling them yet.

What's happening in Texas to the FLDS may eventually be the best thing that ever happened to that community. But it should also scare the hell out of anyone who truly believes in religious freedom.

Thank you, SCM ...... Likewise, I'm sure!

To tell you the truth, I do believe refusal to allow women to be priests is discriminatory and not what God wants. As far as I know, Jesus never said any such thing. And I'd agree that doesn't rise to the level of a "human rights abuse." But that's a topic for another thread. .........

So, because that's a good point, I'll stipulate to the removal of the paragraph that begins, "In addition to . . ."

That done, I feel comfortable that the rest of my response (the 6 examples of harm in the FLDS lifestyle) still stands to believe09's statement, "I would like to see cold hard proof that the way of life they are accustomed to is harmful."

I don't think "denigration" of any particular religion is in any way involved ...... believe09 asked for evidence of harm, so I provided 6 examples of what I believe is harmful in the FLDS lifestyle, in addition to the fact that polygamy is against the law in the USA and YFZ ranch is in the USA.

So, I'll ask you the same question I asked believe09, namely:
Can you think of ways in which a single one of the 6 is not harmful?

1. Training from birth 50% of the children that they are subservient to, lesser than, must obey the other 50%.

2. Not educating children (except for a select few) past the 8th grade.

3. Training from birth that a man must have a minimum of 3 wives in order to attain heaven, thereby leaving at least 2/3 of the male population without a wife and without any hope of heaven.

4. Training from birth that no matter what she does or doesn't do in life, a female cannot attain heaven unless her "husband" says she can.

5. The inbreeding in this closed society (50% are descendants from the original 2 families--Jessop and Barlow @ 1930) has produced an incomparably high incidence of a serious birth defect known as "fumarase deficiency."

6. Being expected to give birth to one child per year.

:blowkiss:

 

[believe09]

number 6 could be harmful if you 1.) don't wish to do it, 2.) have fertility issues 3.) lack the support system to parent that number of children 4.) have a body that becomes worn out with continuous pregnancies.

I am willing to bet, JMO, that the FLDS women do not adhere to this one very strictly, but I guess we will see when the DNA tests come back confirming parentage. Has there been anything that indicates some of them have produced 30+ children?