Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #5

[Seven]

Excellent video and interview by Mike Watkiss!! Within the clip there are scenes of large groups of the FLDS with lots of children.
http://www.azfamily.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=51448&catId=245
Ruth Stubbs four years later
February 16th, 2006Mike Watkiss interviews Ruth Stubbs, a young mother who fled her polygamist police officer husband.

What a special youg lady Ruth Stubbs is! Thx for the link, Molly! :clap:
(And here's what happened to her "husband")

May 18, 2006

Bigamy Conviction Stands for Former Utah Policeman, Rodney Holm

The Utah Supreme Court upheld the 2003 bigamy conviction of a former Hildale police officer, ruling that a law banning polygamy is not unconstitutional.
Holm was convicted of felony bigamy and two counts of unlawful sexual conduct with a minor. He had argued that the state's bigamy statute violated his right to practice his religion.
The court said that religious protections of the U.S. and Utah constitutions "do not shield [Rodney] Holm's polygamous practices from state prosecution."
Holm is a member of the Fundamentalist LDS Church (not the Morman Church, which banned polygamy in 1890).

 

[mysteriew]

One thing I wonder about. FLDS men are reportedly encouraged by their religion to "demand obedience and maintain control" over their wives and children. So what happens when those few women were able to successfully take their children and run? Were the men "punished" or looked down upon because their woman and children escaped that control? According to reports, the first wife is in charge of maintaining control over their husbands household, and the sister wives are supposed to observe and inform on the other wives. So are the first wives or sister wives punished when a woman escapes with her children?

 

[KOOL LOOK]

I can feel this way and still be very concerned about this situation in Texas. I can feel this way and still be dumbfounded at the black and whiteness that I keep reading....."Everything about FLDS is negative.....They are all brainwashed and need our help......we know what's best for them.....etc..etc..." This arrogance astonishes me.

The issues we are presented with in this matter are complex on so many levels. (another reason we need a forum!). I hate that incest was a part of this community because the power imbalance in incestual families is harmful. However, I can understand how this community might have convinced themselves it was okay based on Biblical stories and priciples.


The Amish and Mennonites have long been rumored to have issues with some of the sexual crimes the FLDS are accused of. Are they next to to get stormed and infiltrated?

I have no problem looking at the harm that the FLDS may have caused to children, but we need to also look at the bigger implications of what is going on here. It is about the children but it is also about our society.

I agree southcitymom. The Book of Revelations speaks of and warns of the persecutions and the magnitude of which it will occur. This is some of the same. It will continue, manifest and grow as those are being taught, brainwashed into this kind of thinking.

I absolutely one hundred percent disagree and know in my heart how this situation was handled is wrong, the shock and awe was un-called for. Now we have a big mess. These children have been harmed tremendously, and so have their parents.

The few criminals involved in this tight knit group are the same situations everyone has to deal with in our society. The few that breaks laws should be punished not a whole people. Flds has the criminal element inside it's group just like every family has a family member who's walked on the dark side and has committed a crime. We as a civilized law abiding group of people should deal with the criminal element. The criminals involved.

A few power hungry, bullies have instigated this mess. So oh yeah, now we will have kids raised and exposed to the same Un-Godly mess all other American children are forced to be exposed to. This is a shame.

They should have removed the men 35 and up, took them to isolated facilties and investigated them. Hence leaving the women, children and young males and boys there to continue to live their accustomed lifestyle and to find new leadership that is lawful and trustworthy for their group.

 

[mysteriew]

I agree southcitymom. The Book of Revelations speaks of and warns of the persecutions and the magnitude of which it will occur. This is some of the same. It will continue, manifest and grow as those are being taught, brainwashed into this kind of thinking.

I absolutely one hundred percent disagree and know in my heart how this situation was handled is wrong, the shock and awe was un-called for. Now we have a big mess. These children have been harmed tremendously, and so have their parents.

The few criminals involved in this tight knit group are the same situations everyone has to deal with in our society. The few that breaks laws should be punished not a whole people. Flds has the criminal element inside it's group just like every family has a family member who's walked on the dark side and has committed a crime. We as a civilized law abiding group of people should deal with the criminal element. The criminals involved.

A few power hungry, bullies have instigated this mess. So oh yeah, now we will have kids raised and exposed to the same Un-Godly mess all other American children are forced to be exposed to. This is a shame.

They should have removed the men 35 and up, took them to isolated facilties and investigated them. Hence leaving the women, children and young males and boys there to continue to live their accustomed lifestyle and to find new leadership that is lawful and trustworthy for their group.

Except to remove a man from his property if he has not been convicted of any crime, is illegal. And by removing the men, the government would have been preventing them from working their livelyhood, as many of them work at the compound.

Also, it would be discriminating against every other American (which they have already done, BTW.) If CPS enters a home and finds abuse in the home, they are mandated to remove the children. They don't take the mothers, or any other non-abusive family member with them. They investigate, then if evidence of a crime is found, they decide either to prosecute the individual or they determine that if corrections are made, they can reunite the family.

They make up a reunification plan. The plan can contain such items as an abusive person no longer being in the home, a parenting class, alcohol or drug rehab. or whatever else is needed to make the home safe for the child. CPS has already announced that every family unit in the household had at least one child under the age of consent in Texas, who was either considered "married" and many were already pregnant. Which under state law means that every household was considered abusive. When the parents of the children then began lying about their names, their childrens names, and all of their ages- in order to hide the abuse- that showed their own compliance with the sex abuse.

When the mother's were allowed to go with the children, they were given opportunities to cooperate with the law. They chose not to do so. And they chose not to do so while they were away from the compound and away from the leaders and the husbands. Again, showing their compliance with the abuse.

 

[FlowerChild]

I agree southcitymom. The Book of Revelations speaks of and warns of the persecutions and the magnitude of which it will occur. This is some of the same. It will continue, manifest and grow as those are being taught, brainwashed into this kind of thinking.

I absolutely one hundred percent disagree and know in my heart how this situation was handled is wrong, the shock and awe was un-called for. Now we have a big mess. These children have been harmed tremendously, and so have their parents.

The few criminals involved in this tight knit group are the same situations everyone has to deal with in our society. The few that breaks laws should be punished not a whole people. Flds has the criminal element inside it's group just like every family has a family member who's walked on the dark side and has committed a crime. We as a civilized law abiding group of people should deal with the criminal element. The criminals involved.

A few power hungry, bullies have instigated this mess. So oh yeah, now we will have kids raised and exposed to the same Un-Godly mess all other American children are forced to be exposed to. This is a shame.

They should have removed the men 35 and up, took them to isolated facilties and investigated them. Hence leaving the women, children and young males and boys there to continue to live their accustomed lifestyle and to find new leadership that is lawful and trustworthy for their group.

Whoa....so we are so bad here in the USA (all of us) that it's better to just leave the FLDS ALONE rather than expose those poor children to US???? OMG, I am just dumbfounded that it would be thought preferable to ignore what is going on for fear OUR LIFESTYLE in the USA is SO BAD that what's out HERE is going to be WORSE???

I am sorry, but I do not believe that the people...and the children (and parents in general) in this country are SO BAD, so beyond the pale, that it would be better to leave these children ALONE than to expose them to US???

I have faith that GOD will heal whatever damages are done to the children and mothers - THAT IS FAITH. I do NOT believe WE have the power to ruin those children or families merely by exposing them to the WORLD WE LIVE IN and GOD created. The FLDS faith isn't WRONG - but SOME of the THINGS THE MEMBERS DO IN THE NAME OF THAT FAITH ARE! NOT wrong to ME, but WRONG - as in wrong to do to another LIVING CREATURE! We do not tolerate such behavior here, not in the name of GOD OR MAN! And we MUST STOP IT if we see it happening.

I say we rescue the children 1st and then we shall appeal to GOD to help us make the right decisions about everything else. I don't see how putting the children FIRST can be condemned in the eyes of GOD. For mercy sakes, we haven't cut off a limb here, we just showed the kids a freaking playground!

My Opinion

 

[Seven]

The few criminals involved in this tight knit group are the same situations everyone has to deal with in our society. The few that breaks laws should be punished not a whole people. Flds has the criminal element inside it's group just like every family has a family member who's walked on the dark side and has committed a crime. We as a civilized law abiding group of people should deal with the criminal element. The criminals involved.

I completely agree with you on this, KL!

In Texas, where the YFZ is located, those who are guilty of bigamy are guilty of a "third degree felony"*** and need to be 'dealt with.'

Apparently, the FLDS should have stayed in Arizona where where the good old boys in Colorado City have all civil service jobs, including "law enforcement," and 6 of the 7 City Council members are polygamists and have run for office unopposed every 2 years since 1985.

All of those (not just the FLDS) who are committing offenses against the family need to be arrested and tried.

***"TEXAS

TITLE 6. OFFENSES AGAINST THE FAMILY
CHAPTER 25. OFFENSES AGAINST THE FAMILY

§ 25.01. BIGAMY.
(a) An individual commits an offense if:

(1) he is legally married and he:
(A) purports to marry or does marry a person other than his spouse in this state, or any other state or foreign country, under circumstances that would, but for the actor's prior marriage, constitute a marriage; or
(B) lives with a person other than his spouse in this state under the appearance of being married; or

(2) he knows that a married person other than his spouse is married and he:
(A) purports to marry or does marry that person in this state, or any other state or foreign country, under circumstances that would, but for the person's prior marriage, constitute a marriage; or
(B) lives with that person in this state under the appearance of being married.

(b) For purposes of this section, "under the appearance of being married" means holding out that the parties are married with cohabitation and an intent to be married by either party.

(c) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(1) that the actor reasonably believed that his marriage was void or had been dissolved by death, divorce, or annulment.

(d) For the purposes of this section, the lawful wife or husband of the actor may testify both for or against the actor concerning proof of the original marriage.

(e) An offense under this section is a Third Degree Felony."

http://fightbigamy.typepad.com/my_weblog/bigamy_laws_states_rw/index.html

 

[southcitymom]

Is this what you imagine that the CPS is doing and saying?

I'm no fan of some of the CPS policies, but I'm pretty sure you can be confidant that none of your fears has been actualized, SCM!

Seven,

My point with that post was: different people have different views of what brainwashing is - and it all depends on who is doing the brainwashing.

Whether we want to admit it or not, we (via CPS) and our government are trying to get these people to do what we think is right for them (and we are doing it by force). Jeffs was doing the same thing.

I want not only to look at the differences between what the US thinks is right and what Jeffs thinks is right, but also in the similarities of how each side handled/handles its charges.

 

[southcitymom]

......They should have removed the men 35 and up, took them to isolated facilties and investigated them. Hence leaving the women, children and young males and boys there to continue to live their accustomed lifestyle and to find new leadership that is lawful and trustworthy for their group.

That is a truly creative solution that I hadn't thought of, KOOL!

 

[Truly]

Seven,

My point with that post was: different people have different views of what brainwashing is - and it all depends on who is doing the brainwashing.

Whether we want to admit it or not, we (via CPS) and our government are trying to get these people to do what we think is right for them (and we are doing it by force). Jeffs was doing the same thing.

I want not only to look at the differences between what the US thinks is right and what Jeffs thinks is right, but also in the similarities of how each side handled/handles its charges.

Well, you made a big deal about the food. Let's look at that. If these 'mothers' have been illegally collecting WIC and food stamps, I will bet that thousands of cases of cereal, milk, eggs, peanut butter, rice, beans, etc. have been consumed within that barbed-wire compound. I know single moms in Austin who manage to prepare wholesome, nutricious meals from the limited list of items they are grateful to receive from the food assistance programs. They work a few hours at the Co-op or Whole Foods to supplement their diets with fresh organic fruits and vegetables.

I presume Texas has transferred the food benefits for the kids over to the foster care facilities, and we know they are going out of their way to provide extra fruits, vegetables, and whole foods. So the kids are probably eating just the same as they did at home. If they never had a bowl of Cheerios before, perhaps that is because the men scarfed up all the childrens WIC benefits.

This case is not about anyone's faith, diet, hairdo or underwear. It is about protecting children from the adults who have sexually abused them.

 

[KOOL LOOK]

That is a truly creative solution that I hadn't thought of, KOOL!

This is the solution I feel the Lord guided me too a couple of days ago when I read these threads and haven't posted.

This is the visual of what should have rightfully been done by our Governemnt, which I happen to Honor, but don't agree with all the time.

They should have showed up, barricaded the entrances and exits. Gathererd the adults, talk with them concerning the allegations and laws there were going to charge them with, or the practices they felt were illegal. Had facilities ready to escort in custody the older males in authority and investigated them. Thus leaving children, wives, mothers and the males behind to continue to live in peace without interruption of their lives.

If their investigation shows guilt on the behalf of the men removed, prosecute and jail them. They would have no access to offend or committ abuses and break laws to their own group. The only adjustments the others left behind would be facing is new leadership. NOt the humongous mess created now. Then LE could have left the compound peacefully and in one piece instead of pieces of a big nightmare they've caused.

The children would never have known what happened. It could have been done discreetly and quietly as to not traumatized all the many others. This is scary.

 

[Seven]

Seven,

My point with that post was: different people have different views of what brainwashing is - and it all depends on who is doing the brainwashing.

Whether we want to admit it or not, we (via CPS) and our government are trying to get these people to do what we think is right for them (and we are doing it by force). Jeffs was doing the same thing.

I want not only to look at the differences between what the US thinks is right and what Jeffs thinks is right, but also in the similarities of how each side handled/handles its charges.

Rather than "trying to get these people to do what we think is right for them," it looks to me as if the State of Texas is simply engaging in the everyday practice of enforcing Texas law.

The problem with having laws on the books that are not universally enforced against all who violate them is that it enables unscrupulous LE to discriminate whom to charge with violating the law.

Anyone who disagrees w/the law in the USA is free to work to change it.

 

[KOOL LOOK]

Well, you made a big deal about the food. Let's look at that. If these 'mothers' have been illegally collecting WIC and food stamps, I will bet that thousands of cases of cereal, milk, eggs, rice, beans, etc. have been consumed within that barbed-wire compound. I know single moms in Austin who manage to prepare wholesome, nutricious meals from the limited list of items they are grateful to receive from the food assistance programs. They work a few hours at the Co-op or Whole Foods to supplement their diets with fresh organic fruits and vegetables.

I presume Texas has transferred the food benefits for the kids over to the foster care facilities, and we know they are going out of their way to provide extra fruits, vegetables, and whole foods. So the kids are probably eating just the same as they did at home. If they never had a bowl of Cheerios before, perhaps that is because the men scarfed up all the childrens WIC benefits.

This case is not about anyone's faith, diet, hairdo or underwear. It is about protecting children from the adults who have sexually abused them.

The Wic program is not illegal for anyone to receive. It's even offered to the rich and well off. It's there and given freely as should be if any family asks for it that has newborns and young children. Now food stamps etc.. is different, you have to meet certain guidelines. I have absolutely no problem with Wic being given to anyone in our country, even the rich. Darn it, if a family fills out the paperwork, asks for it, yes we should give them milk, cereals, cheese etc... for a season in their lives.

 

[KOOL LOOK]

Rather than "trying to get these people to do what we think is right for them," it looks to me as if the State of Texas is simply engaging in the everyday practice of enforcing Texas law.

The problem with having laws on the books that are not universally enforced against all who violate them is that it enables unscrupulous LE to discriminate whom to charge with violating the law.

Anyone who disagrees w/the law in the USA is free to work to change it.

Hi Seven, nice to meet ya. I like your siggy pic, though I don't know the origin.

It's against the law to committ adultery and fornication too, but that law is no longer enforced. Which now makes our legal laws un-balanced for who has the right to pick and choose. We hand pick the laws we're going to enforce from season to season. Thereby making our actions and decisions un-balanced and not rightful.

You can't have it both ways, that's double mindedness, which the Lord says, "a double minded person is not straight in any of their ways". Thus our authorities aren't enforcing the laws correctly.

 

[KOOL LOOK]

Whoa....so we are so bad here in the USA (all of us) that it's better to just leave the FLDS ALONE rather than expose those poor children to US???? OMG, I am just dumbfounded that it would be thought preferable to ignore what is going on for fear OUR LIFESTYLE in the USA is SO BAD that what's out HERE is going to be WORSE???

I am sorry, but I do not believe that the people...and the children (and parents in general) in this country are SO BAD, so beyond the pale, that it would be better to leave these children ALONE than to expose them to US???

I have faith that GOD will heal whatever damages are done to the children and mothers - THAT IS FAITH. I do NOT believe WE have the power to ruin those children or families merely by exposing them to the WORLD WE LIVE IN and GOD created. The FLDS faith isn't WRONG - but SOME of the THINGS THE MEMBERS DO IN THE NAME OF THAT FAITH ARE! NOT wrong to ME, but WRONG - as in wrong to do to another LIVING CREATURE! We do not tolerate such behavior here, not in the name of GOD OR MAN! And we MUST STOP IT if we see it happening.

I say we rescue the children 1st and then we shall appeal to GOD to help us make the right decisions about everything else. I don't see how putting the children FIRST can be condemned in the eyes of GOD. For mercy sakes, we haven't cut off a limb here, we just showed the kids a freaking playground!

My Opinion

I understand. All anyone has to do is turn their tv's on, that will argue my case for me. Case and point closed.

I love America, but it's morals has went down the sewage line. Our kids, not mine, lol :crazy: are being taught Un-Godly sin sick ways. Yes, I'm in mourning for what these children will now be Americanized because everything is about sex sex sex and more sex sex sex.

We have now taught these kids to stand up and rebuke their very own parents. Our Government, showed these parents no Honour, and stripped them right in front of their childrens own eyes of any authority they did have established over their children.

 

[mollymalone]

This is the solution I feel the Lord guided me too a couple of days ago when I read these threads and haven't posted.

This is the visual of what should have rightfully been done by our Governemnt, which I happen to Honor, but don't agree with all the time.

They should have showed up, barricaded the entrances and exits. Gathererd the adults, talk with them concerning the allegations and laws there were going to charge them with, or the practices they felt were illegal. Had facilities ready to escort in custody the older males in authority and investigated them. Thus leaving children, wives, mothers and the males behind to continue to live in peace without interruption of their lives.

If their investigation shows guilt on the behalf of the men removed, prosecute and jail them. They would have no access to offend or committ abuses and break laws to their own group. The only adjustments the others left behind would be facing is new leadership. NOt the humongous mess created now. Then LE could have left the compound peacefully and in one piece instead of pieces of a big nightmare they've caused.

The children would never have known what happened. It could have been done discreetly and quietly as to not traumatized all the many others. This is scary.

Under due process they have to do the investigation first, then charge them. You'd hear the protests of citizens and ACLU and other organizations if LE were to "barricade" anyone, much less the FLDS members into their "home" for weeks or months on end while the investigation is going on. That's not how our legal system or our consitituon is set up. What happens if some of those parents weren't abusing their children? LE would be charged with false arrest. In all the rush to condemn cps and LE over this case, there remains the fact that our laws do not allow for LE to do the kind of scenario you suggest.

Added to the fact that they have to find out which child belongs to which parents, and the fact that many of those children were sent from other states without their parents, to this compound. If those children were removed by force from their parents by flds members, or if they were "reassigned" and taken over state lines and their parents gave them up willingly, that's abandoning their children and could be seen as kidnapping.
This investigation is about the children's safety and their rights.

 

[mollymalone]

The facilites the children are being placed into have instructions about how to handle these children. They're being sensitive to their lifestyle and not exposing them to things we take for granted. That's in case those children are able to return to their parents. This is unprecedented in our history and really, CPS did not and does not have to place those children into groups homes where this can be done. That they are shows they've learned a few lessons from fiascos with other cultlike groups.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

A few power hungry, bullies have instigated this mess. So oh yeah, now we will have kids raised and exposed to the same Un-Godly mess all other American children are forced to be exposed to. This is a shame.

They should have removed the men 35 and up, took them to isolated facilties and investigated them. Hence leaving the women, children and young males and boys there to continue to live their accustomed lifestyle and to find new leadership that is lawful and trustworthy for their group.

CPS does not work that way. Anytime there is a question on whether abuse has been committed or not, CPS always removes the kids from the house rather then the adults. Hence the reason it is called Child protective services, not Adult protective services.

And with the law enforcement involved, they were ONLY there to back CPS up at first. They were not actively involved in a criminal case.

Also it is good that they did remove the kids, because the mothers and fathers kept hiding the kids. Hence the reason it took 7 days to complete the raid. The authorities would get done one house, and move on , and the parents would shuffle the kids yo the completed house. so it took forever to get all the kids, What's to say that that would not continue to happen??

 

[mollymalone]

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/how-dangerous-flds

"One of the trickiest parts of dealing with the extremist right is figuring out whether a given group is just harmless garden-variety crazy -- or harboring the special kind of insanity that will lead to acts of local violence or outright domestic terror."

"it's a question worth asking in the wake of the state of Texas' intervention in the Eldorado colony of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-Day Saints. As the country is thrust into a fresh debate over individual religious freedom versus our collective interest in protecting people's civil rights, we're struggling once again with the deeper question: When should we leave people alone? And when does the state have a public duty to intervene?"

"The best case is that the Texas authorities continue to move deliberately, with transparency and compassion -- and don't stop until every aspect of the church has been properly investigated, prosecuted, reformed, or dismantled. Along the way, some members will be arrested. Some will move to the emerging colonies in Idaho, Colorado, or South Dakota. Quite a few may decide they like life on the outside after all, and leave the church for good."

"In the meantime, we can only hope that the national conversation we're having about this case will help us refine our collective understanding about where the line between religious liberty and collective responsibility and security falls. Whatever happens, the FLDS will never be the same. And, in the end, neither will we."

 

[KOOL LOOK]

Whooooooooo Hoooooooooo we got a forum now, thanks mod. Your the best. :woohoo:

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Whooooooooo Hoooooooooo we got a forum now, thanks mod. Your the best. :woohoo:

Thanks Mods~!!!!!!!!!!!