Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #5

[FlowerChild]

Keeping the females and children in PRISON on their ranch and removing the "men" is NOT a solution.
Why?

NO CHARGES have been filed against anyone - on what grounds can the GOVT just take over their PRIVATE property, remove only the "adult males" and then HOLD the property and restrict who can be there and who can not?

Are we going to restrict the MOTHERS from leaving...with their children? HOW? What if a Mommy decided to waterboard a toddler INSIDE the house in accordance with her religious beliefs about discipline?? Are we gonna put guards in every room? The Ranch isn't a PRISON...

We still do not know WHO the possible perpetrators are. Are there abusive MOTHERS? How can we assume it is just the MEN?? We already KNOW some of the mothers of 14 year-olds allowed (encouraged?) their daughters to be impregnated in accordance with the faith --- would they STOP the Sr Wife from locking their 5 year old in a closet at night if they though GOD was mandating it? We just don't KNOW those answers - and we can't risk finding out AFTER another child is abused.

We do not know who the parents of the children ARE (legally) or WHO they are related to. Who should we give little "Suzi No-Mother" to on the ranch??? Won't removing her from "Spiritual Mommy" and forcing her to live with "Blood Auntie" she doesn't know AT ALL be just as traumatic as removing Suzi from both?

Are there some teenage BOYS who have abused children? Some teenage GIRLS?

Heck, we don't even know if the MOTHERS we are so gung-ho to leave these children with are related to these kids AT ALL?

To protect EVERYONE's RIGHTS it is best to remove the children to a NEUTRAL PLACE until the FACTS ARE KNOWN. Exposing them to a playground or the color red isn't going to ruin them for LIFE! The kids will be returned IF there is NO EVIDENCE OF ABUSE - RETURNED TO THEIR REAL BIO - PARENT(s) (if they are "fit") and we will actually have some records to follow up with these children (unlike now) in the future - you know, JUST IN CASE THE FLDS members DO exercise their religious freedom and get NEW leaders who are EVEN WORSE for the children than the current ones!

My Opinion

 

[songline]

So do I. That's why I'm hoping the FLDS parents were treated the same way other parents are treated.

Do other parents get individual hearings before their children are taken from them?

Or does The State take the kids away/place them in
foster care FIRST, then give the parents a hearing afterwards?

I think you are trying to be very logical; Unfortunately I think that these people are very brain washed group and the children are in danger of their very own male population; So treating these moms the same way as one may treat a mom that is not from a cult would not work - IMO.
I do think they should be given opportunities, I think they should be heard. but I would not give them one child this early on, how would we know that child would not be going back to the same environment? In fact it is safe to say that all people are creatures of habit and they would go back to the same environment. How would we know that these women would protect them? They never protected the kids before....
I personally feel that the children should be raised by Mormon family's - that is their culture; Many Mormon families live clean lives and do not belong to a psycho cult.
I personally think these women need to be re-educated, re-trained to think right before any children are given to them. JMHO

 

[KOOL LOOK]

CPS does not work that way. Anytime there is a question on whether abuse has been committed or not, CPS always removes the kids from the house rather then the adults. Hence the reason it is called Child protective services, not Adult protective services.

And with the law enforcement involved, they were ONLY there to back CPS up at first. They were not actively involved in a criminal case.

Also it is good that they did remove the kids, because the mothers and fathers kept hiding the kids. Hence the reason it took 7 days to complete the raid. The authorities would get done one house, and move on , and the parents would shuffle the kids yo the completed house. so it took forever to get all the kids, What's to say that that would not continue to happen??

This case in no way a standard cps case. It began with LE, not the other way around. This case can't not be argued as regular occurrences and cps protocol. Everything, has been thrown out the window concerning this fiasco. But really, it doesn't matter with which agency it began with. All authorities involved made bad decisions.

I can't believe anyone would argue the rights here: The law broke the law. The law broke assumptive rights and boundaries all americans believe they have. This argument concerning "They couldn't go in there and remove the men is hogwash.

 

[Floh]

Now there is an entire forum dedicated to the FLDS Raids and Related Items i am eager to see thoughts in different threads to therefore more easily discuss different subjects which have been addressed.

but i'm not telling anyone to do so on my say so.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

This case in no way a standard cps case. It began with LE, not the other way around. This case can't not be argued as regular occurrences and cps protocol. Everything, has been thrown out the window concerning this fiasco. But really, it doesn't matter with which agency it began with. All authorities involved made bad decisions.

I can't believe anyone would argue the rights here: The law broke the law. The law broke assumptive rights and boundaries all americans believe they have. This argument concerning "They couldn't go in there and remove the men is hogwash.

No it began with a call to a womans shelter, that alerted CPS. CPS went to law enforcement for back up. It did not begin with law enforcement.
Whenever a child abuse complaint is made with cps, CPS is required by LAW to investigate. They 95% of the time remove the children from both the parents and out of the household.

The police went in with a "Good Faith Cause" they went in with CPS to back them up in investigating the child abuse complaint. When they went in they found criminal stuff going on, hence the FBI got involved, and is still involved.

The police had to go to a judge in order to get a search warrent. The judge granted it.

I don't beleive the police or law enforcement broke the law.

 

[KOOL LOOK]

Keeping the females and children in PRISON on their ranch and removing the "men" is NOT a solution.
Why?

NO CHARGES have been filed against anyone - on what grounds can the GOVT just take over their PRIVATE property, remove only the "adult males" and then HOLD the property and restrict who can be there and who can not?

Are we going to restrict the MOTHERS from leaving...with their children? HOW? What if a Mommy decided to waterboard a toddler INSIDE the house in accordance with her religious beliefs about discipline?? Are we gonna put guards in every room? The Ranch isn't a PRISON...

We still do not know WHO the possible perpetrators are. Are there abusive MOTHERS? How can we assume it is just the MEN?? We already KNOW some of the mothers of 14 year-olds allowed (encouraged?) their daughters to be impregnated in accordance with the faith --- would they STOP the Sr Wife from locking their 5 year old in a closet at night if they though GOD was mandating it? We just don't KNOW those answers - and we can't risk finding out AFTER another child is abused.

We do not know who the parents of the children ARE (legally) or WHO they are related to. Who should we give little "Suzi No-Mother" to on the ranch??? Won't removing her from "Spiritual Mommy" and forcing her to live with "Blood Auntie" she doesn't know AT ALL be just as traumatic as removing Suzi from both?

Are there some teenage BOYS who have abused children? Some teenage GIRLS?

Heck, we don't even know if the MOTHERS we are so gung-ho to leave these children with are related to these kids AT ALL?

To protect EVERYONE's RIGHTS it is best to remove the children to a NEUTRAL PLACE until the FACTS ARE KNOWN. Exposing them to a playground or the color red isn't going to ruin them for LIFE! The kids will be returned IF there is NO EVIDENCE OF ABUSE - RETURNED TO THEIR REAL BIO - PARENT(s) (if they are "fit") and we will actually have some records to follow up with these children (unlike now) in the future - you know, JUST IN CASE THE FLDS members DO exercise their religious freedom and get NEW leaders who are EVEN WORSE for the children than the current ones!

My Opinion

I honor your thoughts and opinions okay. Private property you mention????????????? Uhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm yes that law was more important to adhere and enforce than the rights of a child to be unchallengingly protected and hindered from the love and compassion of a parent. The property = land = dirt. Yep, that's definately more important. Foolishness.

Foolishness!!!!!!! Not you Flowerchild, I love reading your posts and thoughts. But I'm adamant about the property issues versus the human element. Who gives a horses patooty about dirt, I'm concerned about the minds, hearts and well being of a people, even the men involved. Their paramount.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

I honor your thoughts and opinions okay. Private property you mention????????????? Uhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm yes that law was more important to adhere and enforce than the rights of a child to be unchallengingly protected and hindered from the love and compassion of a parent. The property = land = dirt. Yep, that's definately more important. Foolishness.

Foolishness!!!!!!! Not you Flowerchild, I love reading your posts and thoughts. But I'm adamant about the property issues versus the human element. Who gives a horses patooty about dirt, I'm concerned about the minds, hearts and well being of a people, even the men involved. Their paramount.

The woman are programmed, Whats to say that if they did keep these woman and kids in the compound, that the woman wouldn't pick p and leave there?? Whats to say that they would not find anything else to complain about?!

 

[Seven]

Hi Seven, nice to meet ya. I like your siggy pic, though I don't know the origin.

It's against the law to committ adultery and fornication too, but that law is no longer enforced. Which now makes our legal laws un-balanced for who has the right to pick and choose. We hand pick the laws we're going to enforce from season to season. Thereby making our actions and decisions un-balanced and not rightful.

You can't have it both ways, that's double mindedness, which the Lord says, "a double minded person is not straight in any of their ways". Thus our authorities aren't enforcing the laws correctly.

Nice to meet you, too, Kool Look!

I'm not one of those people who wants it "both ways."

I'm one of those people who wants the laws to be enforced, and when a law is "outdated," I want that law to be taken off the books.

Are there really laws against fornication? Where?

 

[KOOL LOOK]

No it began with a call to a womans shelter, that alerted CPS. CPS went to law enforcement for back up. It did not begin with law enforcement.
Whenever a child abuse complaint is made with cps, CPS is required by LAW to investigate. They 95% of the time remove the children from both the parents and out of the household.

The police went in with a "Good Faith Cause" they went in with CPS to back them up in investigating the child abuse complaint. When they went in they found criminal stuff going on, hence the FBI got involved, and is still involved.

The police had to go to a judge in order to get a search warrent. The judge granted it.

I don't beleive the police or law enforcement broke the law.

No it didn't. This underlying current of getting Jeffs and taking Christianity with it as a whole has been connived, in the minds and hearts of many involved in this undertaking. This is much deeper I respectively offer.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

No it didn't. This underlying current of getting Jeffs and taking Christianity with it as a whole has been connived, in the minds and hearts of many involved in this undertaking. This is much deeper I respectively offer.

I respectfully disagree. This began with a call to CPS. The whole Jeffs, was dealt with. I don't think it had any bearing on what happened here.

Theyse people were breaking the laws. They were practicing polygamy, they were raping children, they were participating in fraud. They were abusing there kids. They were WATERBOARDING there babies.

If we allow them to get away with it, then what is next???

My husband put it into simple terms..

If he created a religious group called the "only rights" and one of there religious practice is to take out (kill) anyone that does not meet Gods criteria, is that right? So they take out anyone that practices adultry, drugs, etc. And they can't be prosecuted because it is a religion?

When do we draw the line on religion and state??

 

[Seven]

Are we going to restrict the MOTHERS from leaving...with their children? HOW? What if a Mommy decided to waterboard a toddler INSIDE the house in accordance with her religious beliefs about discipline?? Are we gonna put guards in every room? The Ranch isn't a PRISON...

I saw Carolyn Jessop on Nancy last Thursday or Friday, and Nancy questioned her closely about a remark she made. Jessop told Nancy that she more than once saw one of her sister wives quiet a crying infant by pinching it's nose and/or simultaneously covering the baby's mouth.

Yeah. Not being able to breathe will silence a crying baby (one of their responsibities) quite quickly! :bang:

 

[FlowerChild]

This case in no way a standard cps case. It began with LE, not the other way around. This case can't not be argued as regular occurrences and cps protocol. Everything, has been thrown out the window concerning this fiasco. But really, it doesn't matter with which agency it began with. All authorities involved made bad decisions.

I can't believe anyone would argue the rights here: The law broke the law. The law broke assumptive rights and boundaries all americans believe they have. This argument concerning "They couldn't go in there and remove the men is hogwash.

It began with CPS!
They got a report of an ABUSED GIRL.
They went to seek out the girl - in an armed, fenced, guarded RANCH...
Because of WACO, they did not go alone, they took LE support - so the FLDS DIDN'T SHOOT the CPS Workers.
They took CONTROL of the PROPERTY to protect EVERYONE. Not just the "outsiders" - but also the members themselves. Waco and Jim Jones taught us that some "leaders" have no problem murdering/martyring THEIR OWN to evade capture or prison or make a "point" or protest. CPS had no idea whether the FLDS would KILL THEIR OWN KIDS before allowing them to talk to a CPS Worker. WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN OK??? Would 200 dead BABIES and 40 dead 14 year old mothers have been BETTER???

Puhleeze - they went in PEACEFULLY and they took out the women and children PEACEFULLY! No on had even a hair harmed. This wasn't a HOUSE - this was a REMOTE, FORTIFIED COMPOUND - a private, off the grid, self contained TOWN with 600+ PEOPLE IN IT.

THEY HAD REASON TO INVESTIGATE - and the LAW TODAY permitted them to use LE and security forces to expedite that investigation. Think domestic "terrorism". If you don't like the "New Order" of things SINCE 9-11 then talk to the current Govt about CIVIL RIGHTS. They did NOTHING WRONG at YFZ - in fact - they did much LESS than the US/LE/Govt has done to other people and groups that have come into question. If this was a MUSLIM Compound instead of FLDS betcha not ONE "Religious Rights" person would be here posting about the loss of their "rights" and civil liberties and begging for thier kids to be returned and for them to be left alone.

Our prejudices are showing a little me thinks...like red petticoats in a sea of pastels.....

My Opinion

 

[Floh]

It began with CPS!
They got a report of an ABUSED GIRL.
They went to seek out the girl - in an armed, fenced, guarded RANCH...
Because of WACO, they did not go alone, they took LE support - so the FLDS DIDN'T SHOOT the CPS Workers.
They took CONTROL of the PROPERTY to protect EVERYONE. Not just the "outsiders" - but also the members themselves. Waco and Jim Jones taught us that some "leaders" have no problem murdering/martyring THEIR OWN to evade capture or prison or make a "point" or protest. CPS had no idea whether the FLDS would KILL THEIR OWN KIDS before allowing them to talk to a CPS Worker. WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN OK??? Would 200 dead BABIES and 40 dead 14 year old mothers have been BETTER???

Puhleeze - they went in PEACEFULLY and they took out the women and children PEACEFULLY! No on had even a hair harmed. This wasn't a HOUSE - this was a REMOTE, FORTIFIED COMPOUND - a private, off the grid, self contained TOWN with 600+ PEOPLE IN IT.

THEY HAD REASON TO INVESTIGATE - and the LAW TODAY permitted them to use LE and security forces to expedite that investigation. Think domestic "terrorism". If you don't like the "New Order" of things SINCE 9-11 then talk to the current Govt about CIVIL RIGHTS. They did NOTHING WRONG at YFZ - in fact - they did much LESS than the US/LE/Govt has done to other people and groups that have come into question. If this was a MUSLIM Compound instead of FLDS betcha not ONE "Religious Rights" person would be here posting about the loss of their "rights" and civil liberties and begging for thier kids to be returned and for them to be left alone.

Our prejudices are showing a little me thinks...like red petticoats in a sea of pastels.....

My Opinion

I replied to your post here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64025

in an effort to break up the long threads.

 

[LionRun]

I don't think that anyone is trying to take Christianity down with Jeffs' cult in any way, shape or form. The FLDS is a cult--not a religion, and if what is being reported is true than FLDS cult leaders have raped and physically abused many children for years.

It is despicable that the slimes have been able to get away with this for so long. I hope and pray that the children and anyone who wants to change their way of thinking to a more healthy way can heal.

Lion

 

[Floh]

I don't think that anyone is trying to take Christianity down with Jeffs' cult in any way, shape or form. The FLDS is a cult--not a religion, and if what is being reported is true than FLDS cult leaders have raped and physically abused many children for years.

It is despicable that the slimes have been able to get away with this for so long. I hope and pray that the children and anyone who wants to change their way of thinking to a more healthy way can heal.

Lion

I'd be very interested to read (and participate) in a thread within this new forum http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=145 about the differences between cults and religions.

ETA: there is now a thread discussing this topic: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64028

 

[southcitymom]

..... If this was a MUSLIM Compound instead of FLDS betcha not ONE "Religious Rights" person would be here posting about the loss of their "rights" and civil liberties....

I would and I highly doubt I'm the only one.

 

[LionRun]

I respectfully disagree. This began with a call to CPS. The whole Jeffs, was dealt with. I don't think it had any bearing on what happened here.

Theyse people were breaking the laws. They were practicing polygamy, they were raping children, they were participating in fraud. They were abusing there kids. They were WATERBOARDING there babies.

If we allow them to get away with it, then what is next???

My husband put it into simple terms..

If he created a religious group called the "only rights" and one of there religious practice is to take out (kill) anyone that does not meet Gods criteria, is that right? So they take out anyone that practices adultry, drugs, etc. And they can't be prosecuted because it is a religion?

When do we draw the line on religion and state??

Bravo Ladybass!

Lion

 

[Seven]

I can't believe anyone would argue the rights here: The law broke the law. The law broke assumptive rights and boundaries all americans believe they have. This argument concerning "They couldn't go in there and remove the men is hogwash.

I believe some of the FLDS parents w/b in court this coming week to appeal the decisions by the Judge last week.

But ...... "the law broke the law ....... assumptive rights and boundaries"?

Could you please clarify which Laws you're saying were broken by the LE?

 

[KOOL LOOK]

I believe some of the FLDS parents w/b in court this coming week to appeal the decisions by the Judge last week.

But ...... "the law broke the law ....... assumptive rights and boundaries"?

Could you please clarify which Laws you're saying were broken by the LE?

They didn't verify the fake wrongful allegation made by this one caller, and they did invade their homestead and property. Taking their most valued property, their very own children. As far as I know, there's never been made mention or known of violent abuse or neglect against these peaceful dwelling inhabitants.

I don't believe the water boarding incident for one second. Not one. Isn't it awfully ironic, coincidental that not long ago or far in time, water boarding was a big national news issue being discussed and all of a sudden Ga Zaaam! Water boarding babies now in a religious cult. It's so obvious this is falloinious (sp?) sorry guys for that. I've never heard of water boarding, though I know it's not a completely new term or act. But come on, more likely than not the evidence would support neither did these sheltered, non watching tv, mothers hadn't never heard of it either.

I believe we as Americans have a sense that the Law will protect us on our own property against all invaders. This military tactic was un-called for in a domestic situation that could have been handled without all the shock and trauma. That we as parents are innocent and have the best interests of our children at heart. Now I know that's not the case everytime, many are abused, sadly.

These children I've seen, women and men look entirely healthy, happy and prospering. I want the Government to get to the bottom of any child or young teen sexual abuse and resolve it. Thanks everyone for your comments, very interesting.

Flowerchild, I would be very upset and disappointed even if this happened to a muslim family. There's not balance in this barbaric approach.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

They didn't verify the fake wrongful allegation made by this one caller, and they did invade their homestead and property. Taking their most valued property, their very own children. As far as I know, there's never been made mention or known of violent abuse or neglect against these peaceful dwelling inhabitants.

I don't believe the water boarding incident for one second. Not one. Isn't it awfully ironic, coincidental that not long ago or far in time, water boarding was a big national news issue being discussed and all of a sudden Ga Zaaam! Water boarding babies now in a religious cult. It's so obvious this is falloinious (sp?) sorry guys for that. I've never heard of water boarding, though I know it's not a completely new term or act. But come on, more likely than not the evidence would support neither did these sheltered, non watching tv, mothers hadn't never heard of it either.

I believe we as Americans have a sense that the Law will protect us on our own property against all invaders. This military tactic was un-called for in a domestic situation that could have been handled without all the shock and trauma. That we as parents are innocent and have the best interests of our children at heart. Now I know that's not the case everytime, many are abused, sadly.

These children I've seen, women and men look entirely healthy, happy and prospering. I want the Government to get to the bottom of any child or young teen sexual abuse and resolve it. Thanks everyone for your comments, very interesting.

Flowerchild, I would be very upset and disappointed even if this happened to a muslim family. There's not balance in this barbaric approach.

Waterboarding has been verified! That it does go on in the FLDS!

As far as verifying the call, when they got in there they found SEVERAL sarahs. All underage pregnant teens.

I don't understand how you can feel that what went on here was ok!!!!