Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police

[Glow]

The below linked quote is what I'm afraid will happen. IMO, this could backfire bigtime. Also there are supposed to be briefings today.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3025493

No one can remember anything like this since the famous anti-polygamy raid in 1953 on the Utah-Arizona border. That operation led to a public backlash that set back anti-polygamy efforts for half a century.

Dont worry. There wont be a public backlash this time. Maybe if this was happening to the Amish (who are percieved more favorably while practicing many of the same things) there would be, but in this case. no. No one is going to speak out very loudly for a fringe group with this much of a negative factor.

 

[Glow]

Holy chit. I am at a loss for words.

I see that you are. Perhaps that is a good thing.

 

[Glow]

The search warrant was for the girl, the man, and any and all documents pertaining to the marriage and child. The judge also allowed CPS workers to go into the compound to talk to the occupants. CPS workers do not need a judge to do this - they need a citizen complaint, which they had already. The judge arranged LE protection and coordination.

When a complaint comes in to CPS that they deem a child is in imminent danger, they must make contact with that child to determine what is going on. They HAD to go into the compound to contact her. At the same time, they have leeway to talk to her family and friends to see how she is, how she has been treated, etc. Same as in any other child abuse investigation. As they begin their investigation "something" happened that led them to believe that none of the children were safe at the compound, and the judge said for all of them to be removed in order for the interviews to be continued away from the compound. Again - nothing any different from any other child abuse case.

So now, we have LE looking for the evidence cited in the search warrant, and it can't be found. Leaders refuse to allow them access to the temple. LE brings in equipment, including medical, in case something drastic happens, and heavy equipment to break down the doors of the temple if necessary. Again, nothing "illegal" - they have a legal search warrant for the entire compound, including the temple, and are now being refused entry. Same thing would happen if parishioners of my Methodist Church refused LE access to it and they had a search warrant. Especially if the rest of the scenario was the same.

I don't see this as any different than any other crime scene. It is what it is. A possible (probable), crime scene. It just happens to be at a large religious site. A crime perpetrated on "religious" property is still a crime. And the investigatiion into that crime is going to happen the same way any other crime is investigated.

They can't hide behind their religion. Nor could I, nor could you, nor anyone else here.

Thanks Barb for explaining how the search warrant works in this case. Your reponses are very kind and its obvious that you have done a lot of good research for this thread!

 

[Taximom]

I agree with you believe....somehow, they need to find a way to make this transition more comfortable for the women and children. It's a shame that the men couldn't have been removed and the women and children left at the compound where they could do their own cooking, have their own food, toys, clothing, bedding, etc. Since that didn't happen, it seems as if they should have some way to retrieve more of their belongings from the compound such as their clothing and children's toys. I wonder if Red Cross could come in and help with arranging food that is more what they are used to? It would be wonderful if they had their own cooking facilities there at the fort.

I wish there was someway I could offer help, but right now, they are not accepting any help from the community. They say there are no "unmet needs". I think they are probably working on how to make it more comfortable and are trying hard to recognize the differences in culture.

It's all such a shame, and so sad. My heart goes out to all the women and children. This is one story that is keeping me up at nights.

I think it's a good thing to remove them from their current environment, as unsettling and uncomfortable as it may be. Psychologically it's got to help, even though it's highly traumatic for someone that has lived in a closed community like this all their life.

I really feel sorry for all of them, but I think it will be good in the end if these young girls are being sexually assaulted.

My fear is that CPS doesn't really have all the manpower they need to do this right. We see so many typical cases screwed up all the time in every state. This is a massive intake volume. Keeping track of all this must be a nightmare. Imagine the lab where all the DNA testing will probably be done! Can anyone say "backlog"?

I will keep them all in my prayers.

 

[SuziQ]

Imagine the lab where all the DNA testing will probably be done! Can anyone say "backlog"?

That will really be the only way that this mess will be sorted out.

 

[Glow]

I disagree with the part I have bolded. This group does not have roots that stretch back thousands of years. The mainstream Mormon religion was founded in 1820. This fundamentalist cult broke off from the LDS in 1890. There is much controversy over whether or not Mormons are Christian due to their belief in polytheism. Therefore their roots only go back less than 200 years.

Well that depends on how one looks at it. From their point of view, Im sure that even though they have gone more "fundamental" they feel they are the ones clinging to the "roots" so I can give them that. Right or wrong I can see how and why they would believe that. As for their polytheism, arent they both polytheistic?

 

[MeoW333]

These poor people were living isolated and brainwashed. I'm glad they're sending people in to help them, who are aware of their background. The children were getting sick off of foods we're used to; as their stomachs are used to certain foods. It will take a long while to get them adjusted somewhat.
There's just so much involved in assimilating them back into a community other than what they are used to. The younger the children, the easier it will be for them. Yet the adult women and older children; i'm wondering if it would be best to keep them all together and knit in what they know, yet make sure that they understand that children can not be abused. They've been brainwashed.. Complete culture shock for them.
Hopefully this won't trigger any behavior by other cults out there afraid of getting the smack down.

 

[Taximom]

That will really be the only way that this mess will be sorted out.

How will they get all the male (father's) dna? I'm assuming those men won't just volunteer that.

 

[barb0301]

Thanks Barb for explaining how the search warrant works in this case. Your reponses are very kind and its obvious that you have done a lot of good research for this thread!

Thanks Glow, I was hoping I hadn't offended anyone, as that is not my intention at all. I just get so worked up over any story that has to do with children because of my own childrens' backgrounds.

CPS and LE can certainly make mistakes, and has been known to do so on more than one occasion. In my case, they have been true heroes. In this story, as much as I can find out from what has been reported and the research that I've done, so far, they have gone by the book. Time will tell.

I know this is not a comfortable situation for those involved. It never is when a child is removed from their family. Trust me, I've seen the effects and lived with them for many years. My children have lived with them for many years after having been removed from their biological parents. I know that there are special circumstances to this case, but my children and all children that face this situation go through so much trauma that it is hard for any of us to imagine. My children are my biggest heroes. I can feel the pain and anguish that these children are going through and my heart aches for them.

 

[Pepper]

Well that depends on how one looks at it. From their point of view, Im sure that even though they have gone more "fundemental" they feel they are the ones clinging to the "roots" so I can give them that. Right or wrong I can see how and why they would believe that. As for their polytheism, arent they both polytheistic?

Yes. Doesn't make either one of them "Christian" in my mind.

I still say that you can't invent a religion that goes against the laws of the land. What if there was some new "religion" that believes in killing all first born babies? Should they have that right because it is a part of their "religion" even though we have laws against murder?

 

[SuziQ]

How will they get all the male (father's) dna? I'm assuming those men won't just volunteer that.

I assume through a court order. The work behind these cases will be astronomical.

 

[Linda7NJ]

These poor people were living isolated and brainwashed. I'm glad they're sending people in to help them, who are aware of their background. The children were getting sick off of foods we're used to; as their stomachs are used to certain foods. It will take a long while to get them adjusted somewhat.
There's just so much involved in assimilating them back into a community other than what they are used to. The younger the children, the easier it will be for them. Yet the adult women and older children; I'm wondering if it would be best to keep them all together and knit in what they know, yet make sure that they understand that children can not be abused. They've been brainwashed.. Complete culture shock for them.
Hopefully this won't trigger any behavior by other cults out there afraid of getting the smack down.

I happen to think some of their "ways are FAR better than ours. Can you imagine what these children and women will think when they see young girls in OUR society walking around looking like tramps with tight half shirts, pierced bellybuttons and thongs hanging out of their super short shorts?

NO processed foods...IMO is the way we should ALL be living

 

[Glow]

good point Linda!

 

[trixie]

That will really be the only way that this mess will be sorted out.

I'm going to get in trouble here but so what. I can already see I am in disagreement with most of you anyway.

Why do you think there will have to be DNA testing to detemine who is who? Don't you think these people know who their father, mother, brother,etc. are? Why don't you think they can't open their mouths and form words and tell about their family tree? These poeple are people, just like you and me. They speak english and are perfectly capable of talking when asked questions. Some of you are acting as if they can't even help themselves by cooperating with speech. Why couldn't they? I think THEY CHOOSE to live this way. These full grown women KNOW sending their 12 or 13 year old daughter off to marry a 50 year old man and have sex with him just because they are told to do so is WRONG. They KNOW IT. Even if they were all raised in the cult I belive there is something deeper in a mother and woman who KNOWS this is wrong. Yet they did it. Any one of them could have gotten out, anytime. It took a 16 year old to save them all. Shame on any one of those women over the age of 21. They knew better.

Oh and those of you who keep saying they should get some LDS women in there to help, or those who still think these are LDS in some way, I afraid you still just don't get it. These are not LDS. You may as well get Catholic nuns in there to help them. Same difference.

OK, I have to go out for awhile but in the meantime, fire away. I'm sure theres no one here who agrees with me about this.

 

[Pepper]

Actually Trixie, I agree with most of what you say. Many of these women are there because they believe in the cult.

But I disagree that all are there out of choice. Because this cult teaches that the elder men have all the power, and the women must obey their master, many may not feel they have a choice. If it is all they've ever known, the outside world may seem to be very frightening. Also, very few of these women have an education beyond 8th grade equilivant, and the teachers are just older version of themselves, so many may have no understanding of the American concept of freedom.

 

[Floh]

I'm going to get in trouble here but so what. I can already see I am in disagreement with most of you anyway.

Why do you think there will have to be DNA testing to detemine who is who? Don't you think these people know who their father, mother, brother,etc. are? Why don't you think they can't open their mouths and form words and tell about their family tree? These poeple are people, just like you and me. They speak english and are perfectly capable of talking when asked questions. Some of you are acting as if they can't even help themselves by cooperating with speech. Why couldn't they? I think THEY CHOOSE to live this way. These full grown women KNOW sending their 12 or 13 year old daughter off to marry a 50 year old man and have sex with him just because they are told to do so is WRONG. They KNOW IT. Even if they were all raised in the cult I belive there is something deeper in a mother and woman who KNOWS this is wrong. Yet they did it. Any one of them could have gotten out, anytime. It took a 16 year old to save them all. Shame on any one of those women over the age of 21. They knew better.

Oh and those of you who keep saying they should get some LDS women in there to help, or those who still think these are LDS in some way, I afraid you still just don't get it. These are not LDS. You may as well get Catholic nuns in there to help them. Same difference.

OK, I have to go out for awhile but in the meantime, fire away. I'm sure theres no one here who agrees with me about this.

Honestly, i don't believe the women do think they were wrong. it's what they were raised with and what they perceive to be god's will.

all the above is my opinion only.

 

[barb0301]

<P>

I'm going to get in trouble here but so what. I can already see I am in disagreement with most of you anyway.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Why do you think there will have to be DNA testing to detemine who is who? Don't you think these people know who their father, mother, brother,etc. are? Why don't you think they can't open their mouths and form words and tell about their family tree?

</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>I don't disagree with you at all that they can open their mouths and speak.&nbsp; However, in a court of law, DNA tests are going to be required if there is any question over fatherhood.&nbsp; I would assume that the state of TX is going to want to have proof beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.&nbsp; Already, the man that has been ID'd as the purported father of 8 month old child of the 16 year old that reportedly called in is saying he has no idea who the 16 year old is.&nbsp; </P>

 

[SuziQ]

We are not acting as if they can't speak...they won't speak! It's not about determining who is who. It's about being able to prove that a man had illegal sex with an underage girl. They need to do DNA testing because no one will admit who's the father of who. They will need that proof along with the age of the child to determine whether the father and mother had "illegal sex". Ie; a 50 year old man and an underage girl. The women most likely won't speak, and even when confronted with evidence they will lie about the circumstances of how they got pregnant. I kid you not, they will say things like they found uncle so and so's used condom and used a turkey baster to impregnate themselves. This isn't the first time that cases like this has been brought to court. But the cases have failed based on what I just stated.

It's not easy to get out. If you do, you generally have to leave your kids behind. Most mothers would stay with their kids given that choice.

The over 21year old women started off as 14 year old child brides themselves. By the time they turn 21 they probably have 6 kids, no job, no education, no money. Because of that the courts routinely award custody to the fathers, and the women are left out in the cold with little support from anyone outside the FLDS faith. In fact anyone who dares to leave have largely ignore by the goverment and local communities.

You are correct about sending LDS people in to help. I'll go one further. Former FLDS members won't be welcomed either.

 

[dottierainbow]

You are so right on SuzieQ. Also, how do they know that they only had one sexual partner?

 

[Salem]

I'm going to get in trouble here but so what. I can already see I am in disagreement with most of you anyway.

Why do you think there will have to be DNA testing to detemine who is who? Don't you think these people know who their father, mother, brother,etc. are? Why don't you think they can't open their mouths and form words and tell about their family tree? These poeple are people, just like you and me. They speak english and are perfectly capable of talking when asked questions. Some of you are acting as if they can't even help themselves by cooperating with speech. Why couldn't they? I think THEY CHOOSE to live this way. These full grown women KNOW sending their 12 or 13 year old daughter off to marry a 50 year old man and have sex with him just because they are told to do so is WRONG. They KNOW IT. Even if they were all raised in the cult I belive there is something deeper in a mother and woman who KNOWS this is wrong. Yet they did it. Any one of them could have gotten out, anytime. It took a 16 year old to save them all. Shame on any one of those women over the age of 21. They knew better.

Oh and those of you who keep saying they should get some LDS women in there to help, or those who still think these are LDS in some way, I afraid you still just don't get it. These are not LDS. You may as well get Catholic nuns in there to help them. Same difference.

OK, I have to go out for awhile but in the meantime, fire away. I'm sure theres no one here who agrees with me about this.

Trixie - I think the DNA will be necessary to legally confirm what these women and children say. Also, if there is any prosecution to be done, it will be necessary to prove the connection.

Having said that, I also agree with some of what you say. However, in my mind, I equate this situation with the domestic violence situation. For example: a woman marries into a family that believes the husband has a right to beat the woman. Maybe this woman was raised watching her mother get beat and she sees her mother-in-law get beat. There is a lot of psychological warfare that goes on in domestic violence. Anyway, so this woman has a couple of kids, say one boy and one girl. By the time the boy is 10, while he probably is scared to death everytime he sees his mother get beat, he thinks it is standard practice to be disrespectful and abusive to the female sex. And the young girl is going to believe the same. And this cycle continues until, through the grace of God, someone, somewhere manages to step in and stop it or eventually one child is born that has some innate sense of the wrongness of the situation and finds a way to get out.

So yes, these women who also married at 15, had children and watched their children grow up to do the same - they knew it was wrong. If a wrong is done to you (and really, how many 15 year olds would be into sex with a 50 year old?) you can certainly recognize it when it is done to another, especially your own child. So - I say thank God for the 16 year old that managed to make the call.

I do believe these women felt powerless and resigned and comfortable. Being comfortable, sometimes can be your worst enemy.

And, I am very worried about the 16 year old that made the call and they can't seem to locate her. The last reports I read said they do not know if they have removed her from the compound or not.

My prayers go out to these women and children and I hope this exposure to the big world doesn't freak them out too much. I have to agree with Linda (I think it was Linda) that some of their practices are a good thing. There is absolutely no reason why a child should know what cold cereal or TV dinners are

Salem