Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police

[cheko1]

On the 20/20 program I seen one of the women appeared to be crazy. It was as tho many were afraid to speak out for fear of retribution.

I think the women are beat into submission & take it as there way of life. It is many of there choices to live like that. They see nothing wrong with it & resent anyone who tell them differently.

I agree DNA will be necessary. But feel Trixie is CORRECT!

 

[SuziQ]

Trixie, I hope you don't think I'm firing away and you aren't in trouble, IMO. In fact, Kudo's for you for bringing an interesting side bar to this mess that should be discussed.

 

[mysteriew]

Color me confused. This article says that authorities are looking for Dale Barlow and haven't found him yet. (they also have an arrest warrant for him?)
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/06/texas.ranch/?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail

Yet an earlier article says that Barlow has talked with them on the phone, he has visited his probation officer and is in Az and he has spoken with media. So why are they unable to find him? (Esp. since he claims he doesn't know the girl)
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8827761

Also, they have an arrest warrant for Barlow? I do wonder what evidence they have on him, to allow them to get an arrest warrant this early. Now I am wondering if maybe there isn't a lot more going on than what is getting out.

Also, I am really worried about that 16 year old girl and why they cannot find her. Hopefully the sect is just hiding her, but I do worry that it is worse. Could the FDLS have gotten a heads up on the raid? Received some kind of warning about what was going on and had time to get her out of there? I'm really suprised that they didn't seal this search warrant until the raid was over.

 

[SuziQ]

Their heart may be in the right place, but good lord, the below linked quote worries me.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8839610

Brown said her staff is reviewing books "related to their religion" so they can better understand the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. She did not specify what those books are, but just two books by ex-members of the faith are publicly available. Best-selling author Jon Krakauer also wrote about the sect in his book on fundamentalist Mormonism.

 

[SLP]

I'm going to get in trouble here but so what. I can already see I am in disagreement with most of you anyway.

Why do you think there will have to be DNA testing to detemine who is who? Don't you think these people know who their father, mother, brother,etc. are? Why don't you think they can't open their mouths and form words and tell about their family tree? These poeple are people, just like you and me. They speak english and are perfectly capable of talking when asked questions. Some of you are acting as if they can't even help themselves by cooperating with speech. Why couldn't they? I think THEY CHOOSE to live this way. These full grown women KNOW sending their 12 or 13 year old daughter off to marry a 50 year old man and have sex with him just because they are told to do so is WRONG. They KNOW IT. Even if they were all raised in the cult I belive there is something deeper in a mother and woman who KNOWS this is wrong. Yet they did it. Any one of them could have gotten out, anytime. It took a 16 year old to save them all. Shame on any one of those women over the age of 21. They knew better.

Oh and those of you who keep saying they should get some LDS women in there to help, or those who still think these are LDS in some way, I afraid you still just don't get it. These are not LDS. You may as well get Catholic nuns in there to help them. Same difference.

OK, I have to go out for awhile but in the meantime, fire away. I'm sure theres no one here who agrees with me about this.

What we view as morally wrong is always influenced by society, laws, family and religion. Law enforcement in their town participates, their parents, their friends, their church...everyone their whole life that they know has lived their lives this way. They are banned from outside contact or TV or movies that would show them another way or a different set of morals. While they might know that it is horrible (because of that gut instinct or because of them having to live through it) they have been taught that that is their human weakness and that woman will burn in hell if they do not submit to what their religion and society tells them is a Holy Life. ***feel sick just writing that *** They are also viewed as property of the church. I don't think that they are making any kind of decisions (or have the luxury of making wrong ones) or have any kind of power in their childrens marriages.

 

[mysteriew]

Does anyone know how the FLDS handles medical care? Do they go to the doctor and/or hospitals?

 

[trixie]

Trixie, I hope you don't think I'm firing away and you aren't in trouble, IMO. In fact, Kudo's for you for bringing an interesting side bar to this mess that should be discussed.

Not at all SuziQ. Thank you for replying to my post. I'm still mulling over some of the responses I've read and I wish I had more time today to follow this. I'll be back later on to join this discussion.

 

[SuziQ]

Does anyone know how the FLDS handles medical care? Do they go to the doctor and/or hospitals?

I've heard they don't and they do. I think in emergency situations they do.

 

[Pepper]

I think most babies are born at home. I don't know if the births are registered, other than maybe "church" records.

 

[mysteriew]

The reason I am wondering about medical care.

The CPS director keeps saying she is confident that there is a 16 year old girl and she is confident that the girl's allegations are true. Now that could be a defensive posture due to the fact that they have not found the girl yet.

Except for the fact that it is also being said they have an arrest warrant for Barlow. Don't they have to show the judge who writes the warrant that they do have proof of a crime when they apply for a warrant? I mean it cannot be based merely on a verbal allegation can it? I think they have some proof. I think that there is more than the girls phone call.

Most of the women and children don't leave the compound, so how did this 16year old make this phone call? As insular as they are, I would imagine that phones aren't common there.

Theory: If this girl or her baby were taken for medical care, then that could be how the complaint was made. If they were in a medical situation, blood could have been drawn. Dale Barlow's DNA would already be on file due to his previous conviction. If the DNA matched, they would have enough to write an arrest warrant. I just haven't figured out why they would have allowed the mother/child to leave the hospital and return to the compound unless they were waiting for the DNA to come back and the doctor discharged them.

 

[philamena]

Great discussion on this thread.

 

[Glow]

Their heart may be in the right place, but good lord, the below linked quote worries me.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8839610

Brown said her staff is reviewing books "related to their religion" so they can better understand the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. She did not specify what those books are, but just two books by ex-members of the faith are publicly available. Best-selling author Jon Krakauer also wrote about the sect in his book on fundamentalist Mormonism.

I think that is a good thing. Understanding where they are coming from will help Brown and her staff deal with these people with more compassion. Its not like they are in any danger of being converted. Just deeper insight thats all.

 

[SuziQ]

I think that is a good thing. Understanding where they are coming from will help Brown and her staff deal with these people with more compassion. Its not like they are in any danger of being converted. Just deeper insight thats all.

Oh it's a good thing. It just shows how out of the loop and unprepared for the FLDS group they are and that's not a good thing. IMO, a big red flag as to how much the authorities may be in over their head. Kudos for Brown and her staff for trying.

 

[Pepper]

Oh it's a good thing. It just shows how out of the loop and unprepared for the FLDS group they are and that's not a good thing. IMO, a big red flag as to how much the authorities may be in over their head. Kudos for Brown and her staff for trying.

Yes! But I wonder if the TX authorities are up for the task of sorting through all this mess, figuring out who to charge and what to charge, and the expense and resources it will take to bring them all to trial (the men, that is). I'm sure this is the main reason why no one has done anything with the Colorado City group.

 

[WhitneyLea]

Here is just my opinion ... but I think they do have the 16 year old who made the initial phone call. I think she is one of the group of children who were removed from the ranch, but is simply too afraid to speak up and let LE know that it was her, for fear of retribution from family/church/etc. They only spoke to the girl over the phone ... and by now, she is probably relieved to be safe but terrified to admit that she made the phone call, especially since this has turned into a pretty major ordeal. From what I have heard, none of the women & children are talking much. I will be very interested to see if she does speak up (if she has indeed been found), and what will happen if LE remains unable to identify her.

 

[Glow]

I see what you are saying. I agree that they are deep in it now arent they?
Now the state has to step up and care for all of these women and children.

What alarms me is to see that women and children can be forcibly taken from their home, "detained" at a military post and no one has even scheduled a hearing for them.

If Mexico had hopped over the border and taken these women and children and were detaining them using the cooperation of the military, the US would be up in arms demanding to know why.

But when its your own government that makes it ok?

(if youre tempted to point out all that would be involved in the illegalities of Mexicans kidnapping Americans, I get that already, save yourself some typing )

I was using that lame illustration only to see how the situation would look once removed.

 

[Pepper]

Lis Whiel was just on with E.D. Hill discussing this issue, and Lis says, and I agree, that when child welfare is the issue that trumps freedom of religion. They must have very good reason to believe children are in danger. Also the CPS spokesperson said that all the women were given their options - to come with their children, or to stay behind. It appears that most chose to go with the children that were being removed. I would hardly call this kidnapping. How do you know they were forcibly taken? They wouldn't have done this if they didn't have good reason to believe that these children were in danger.

 

[mysteriew]

In most cases where the children are removed, the parents are not allowed to come with them. Usually they would be investigating how much involvement both parents had in the crime. They have made an exception in this case. They are allowing the mothers to come with the children if they wish.

IMO, that is a good decision because I don't think the mothers had any choice in the matter. But I have seen cases where the mother made allegations that if she interfered with the abuse of the children, then she would be abused. And those mothers got charged too because she knew of the abuse and allowed it.

So while I believe it was a good decision to allow the mothers to go with the children, no I don't really feel sorry for them. For many of them this could be their first steps towards independence. The first time they have to actually think about the situation they are in, to learn there are other ways of living. And to learn that outsiders can be kind and helpful and even protective. And not the devils they may have heard about.

I think that a military facility was chosen, not because the military had a role in the raid, but because it was the largest place they could find that would allow all the mothers and children to be together. Though that might not be a good thing. If all the mother groups were separated, the mothers might have felt freer about talking about their situation. Of course there would be a danger of them shutting down too.

 

[Taximom]

Why do you think there will have to be DNA testing to detemine who is who? Don't you think these people know who their father, mother, brother,etc. are? Why don't you think they can't open their mouths and form words and tell about their family tree? (snipped)

Maybe this has already been answered, but LE can't just take the word of the victim in cases like this as to who the father is. What if there are several possibilities? Do they share their teen girls w/other men in this group?

I certainly did not mean to imply these people were stupid or couldn't talk. If LE has a case, DNA testing is going to have be a part of it if there's a child involved (to prove who the father is). That's all.

I hope that explains where I was coming from.

 

[Glow]

Lis Whiel was just on with E.D. Hill discussing this issue, and Lis says, and I agree, that when child welfare is the issue that trumps freedom of religion. They must have very good reason to believe children are in danger. Also the CPS spokesperson said that all the women were given their options - to come with their children, or to stay behind. It appears that most chose to go with the children that were being removed. I would hardly call this kidnapping. How do you know they were forcibly taken? They wouldn't have done this if they didn't have good reason to believe that these children were in danger.

I agree with you on that up to a point. Where I jump off is at the point of who gets to decide that and what are they basing it on? Everything comes in degrees. Shades of gray. Once you make a government the ultimate authority than you have crippled personal liberty. We cant have it both ways.
I am sure that the authorities in this case thought they had a good reason. Did they? That hasn't been established yet. As for how they were taken, the word I used was detained. I feel comfortable also using the word raid. The compound was raided and the women and children were taken and are being detained and interviewed at a military post. That just sounds so surreal even as I type it....

here are the links from which I obtained the words "detained" and "raid"

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8823648

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8839610

as far as the women being given the "option" of going with the child that was going to be taken away or staying behind, what kind of option is that really?
I'm sure there is at LEAST one 15 yr old girl there who has been involved in sex with an adult, probably many. But guess what? I am equally sure there is a 4 yr old little boy who was just living his life and doing pretty well and he too has been "taken" and "detained" and his mothers only "option" was to let him walk out the door with strangers or to go with him. I am as glad as everyone else that the rights of under aged girls are going to be protected, but what about this little boys rights? What about his mothers rights?