Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police

[Glow]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3004779

"It appears they may be settling in for a long ordeal here," Mankin said. "They've also got a no-fly zone 5,000 feet above and five miles around. You can't even fly over the thing now."

But everybody please remember this is all just being handled on a local level. There is NO federal involvement at all.

And also please remember that there could have been NO more efficient way to accomplish the same thing while at the same time not trampling on peoples civil rights.

For example, cordoning off the compound and removing the adult males while leaving the women and children in their enviroment and then interviewing them would have been ...well stupid actually...then you would only have less then 100 adult males in custody. You know, the "perps"?

Much better to have upwards of 500 women and children displaced without warning. Oh yeah, much better use of manpower and money.

 

[philamena]

Glow,
Hello, I must ask, do you know people in this compound or in that part of TX? I'm not 'getting' your point of view.
If 401 kids are being neglected and abused, I don't give a rats ass about the civil rights of the people who live there.

There is a REASON this is happening.
I'm trying to understand why you're so against the search and the way it's being done.

IF these people are so innocent, why are they running and hiding?

Another thing, you keep saying the women and children should be together....how do you know that these women aren't involved in the abuse???

 

[mysteriew]

You know all the discussion about the women/mothers in this has gotten me to thinking.

I still think the way they entered the compound and removing the children was according to standard operating procedure and was correct.

But you all have convicinced me that it was in removing the children that they deviated from the norm and were most likely incorrect.

Standard procedure is for the social worker(s) to remove the children, leaving the mothers. Those children would then be placed according to what was available and as close to age appropriate as possible.

Teen mothers for instance would go to facilities for teens, and their babies would go to foster homes. Children whose mothers were adults would either go into teen facilities or foster homes depending on their ages- maybe with their siblings, maybe not.

Of course that might traumatize the kids more. But that happens every day and social workers cope with that every day. With every other citizen and their children and is usually better than any abuse they may have come out of. And most kids survive it ok, though some better than others. But that way the mothers rights would have been protected. They could have remained in their homes and with their husbands.

And for the thirty days or so that their children were in foster care or other system provision, the mothers could have spoken with their husbands and the attorneys while they waited for visitation that they might or might not get. Just like any other mother in a situation where their children are determined to be in abusive situations. And while they were waiting, they could be threatened with also being arrested because they didn't protect their children from the abusive behaviors.

You all have convinced me, they should not have been given any of the special treatment like they have received so far. They should have been left in their homes, with their husbands- just like any other citizen and with any other citizens rights.

 

[philamena]

Maybe the women were removed so THEY would be protected.

 

[barb0301]

You know all the discussion about the women/mothers in this has gotten me to thinking.

I still think the way they entered the compound and removing the children was according to standard operating procedure and was correct.

But you all have convicinced me that it was in removing the children that they deviated from the norm and were most likely incorrect.

Standard procedure is for the social worker(s) to remove the children, leaving the mothers. Those children would then be placed according to what was available and as close to age appropriate as possible.

Teen mothers for instance would go to facilities for teens, and their babies would go to foster homes. Children whose mothers were adults would either go into teen facilities or foster homes depending on their ages- maybe with their siblings, maybe not.

Of course that might traumatize the kids more. But that happens every day and social workers cope with that every day. With every other citizen and their children and is usually better than any abuse they may have come out of. And most kids survive it ok, though some better than others. But that way the mothers rights would have been protected. They could have remained in their homes and with their husbands.

And for the thirty days or so that their children were in foster care or other system provision, the mothers could have spoken with their husbands and the attorneys while they waited for visitation that they might or might not get. Just like any other mother in a situation where their children are determined to be in abusive situations. And while they were waiting, they could be threatened with also being arrested because they didn't protect their children from the abusive behaviors.

You all have convinced me, they should not have been given any of the special treatment like they have received so far. They should have been left in their homes, with their husbands- just like any other citizen and with any other citizens rights.

I think that in this particular case, we will eventually see Adult Protective Services brought in to handle certain cases with the women, if they choose to talk at all. If women are of age, and being beaten by their husbands, mistreated, etc., then those cases will transfer over to APS. It's a possibility, maybe remote, but a possibility nontheless.

 

[barb0301]

For example, cordoning off the compound and removing the adult males while leaving the women and children in their enviroment and then interviewing them would have been ...well stupid actually...then you would only have less then 100 adult males in custody. You know, the "perps"?

Much better to have upwards of 500 women and children displaced without warning. Oh yeah, much better use of manpower and money.

I don't think there's any legal grounds for removing the men, unless you arrest them. There are no grounds to arrest them as of yet. No charges have been brought against any of them except 1, and he is supposedly in Arizona.

There were legal grounds to remove the children for up to 14 days and then hold a hearing to defend the decision to the judge. At that point, a determination will be made to either continue to hold them in state care or return them to their family at the compound. After that, hearings will be held either every month or every 3 months. (judge's discretion I believe).Also have to give the family time to get a lawyer, the child's adlitem lawyer has a lot of work to do along with the CASA caseworker assigned to the child. All working together to try to find out this child's history and what is in this child's best interest going forward. Where will this child be safe and well cared for? That's the ultimate goal - to answer that 1 question.

 

[Taximom]

Wow, I just watched video of those sweet, innocent children in their little outfits being rounded up. It is so heartbreaking to watch. I was very glad the video was blurry (on purpose) because the news media should not be showing these children. They wouldn't do that in any other child services case.

 

[trixie]

Did any of you watch that press conference? She said they were there for the children and the mothers were told they were welcome to come along if they wanted to. They left it up to them. She said the ADULT mothers weren't removed but given the choice if they wanted to come with their kids. ADULT is the operative word. I'm sure there were many more children/mothers with children than adult/mothers with children. What is sad to me is I hope no adult mother simply let her child go without going along.

 

[Glow]

Glow,
Hello, I must ask, do you know people in this compound or in that part of TX? I'm not 'getting' your point of view.
If 401 kids are being neglected and abused, I don't give a rats ass about the civil rights of the people who live there.

There is a REASON this is happening.
I'm trying to understand why you're so against the search and the way it's being done.

IF these people are so innocent, why are they running and hiding?

Another thing, you keep saying the women and children should be together....how do you know that these women aren't involved in the abuse???

Hi philamena,

I am just a middle aged woman living in Fla. and I have no affiliation with this group at all. I am concerned however about the increasing role that government plays in the everyday life of the citizens of our country.

It should go without saying that I hate child molesters and religious extremists but I feel that I must state that again.

I am looking beyond the obvious here. The obvious being the men running this compound need to be stopped. Period.

Ok, so then what? How much force should the government use before they have proof? Could there have been ANY other way to handle this and still accomplish a good result?

If you were the ONE truly innocent woman (for sake of argument) in that compound and you were told that you had to hand your child over OR leave everything with NO notice and come along and be "detained" indefinitely how would you react? I would not react well. I don't think throwing the widest net possible and sort the innocents out later is called for here.

This is how it begins when people hand things over to the government. First the fringe people that no one likes are attacked. When that goes well then it's on to the next group. By the time the mainstream is under scrutiny by their own government it is too late.

That concept is called Fascism. That is where the rights of the individual must bow to the rights of the common good as defined by the state. Most people confuse it with Nazism but they are different.

Speaking of Nazism, even Hitler didn't begin with persecuting the Jews. He started with the gypsy's. People that the mainstream didn't care about or identify with. People supported him in that.

I am trying to look at what is going on here ASIDE from the fact that men have molested under aged females. I was attempting to look harder at the governments response to this obvious wrong.

I have been attempting to look at the broad range implications and I guess that isnt of interest to anyone but me right now :blushing:

Thank you for asking though...I appreciate the open mindedness.


I borrowed this from the thread about national identity cards but it can just as easily apply here.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserves neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

 

[Salem]

Maybe the women were removed so THEY would be protected.

I think the mothers were allowed to go because once this thing got underway, CPS realized there was no way they were going to be able to place 500 children in foster care in 24 hours or so. Can you imagine? That is probably somewhere near the number of children in the entire state of California that are dealt with on a daily basis. How, in a small, rural area, are you going to handle that all at once? This is major. Someone has to look out for those babies, who better than the mothers, if it does not appear that the mothers are the abusers?

And, to my way of thinking, if the only way to get to heaven is through your husband, if you really wanted to stay with your husband, wouldn't you? Obviously God would understand, because it is your husband that is your salvation. I think some of these women wanted out. Maybe not all, but some of them. It could also be that with Jeffs in jail, things have deteriorated to a point that even the hard core women are now praying for something different, better and hopefully not worse.

I too, am concerned about the lack of teenage boys. Not quite sure what to think about that, but it bothers me.

Salem

 

[LinasK]

Everybody knew they were there. I think it's interesting that all it took to get them out of there was one (or 2) phone call from a 16 year old girl. So if a 16 year old girl from every cult called authorities eventually all the cults would be eliminated? I don't think that is a bad thing. Women and children HAVE no civil liberties in those compounds. I wonder how many women and teen girls fell to their knees in prayers of gratitude when all this started happening? Most, I bet.

:clap: :clap: :clap: My thoughts exactly!

 

[ThoughtFox]

I have not seen a single boy. Creepy. Anyone else?

So what do you think? These older boys who supposedly "ran away" may have been right there all along? They wouldn't want boys coming back causing trouble or going to the police. That makes sense to me.

Sounds like some bodies are buried out there somewhere, male or female. Or both.

And Glow: I respect other opinions, but these are children, and if their mothers and fathers don't want to protect them, I pray to God that someone will.

Sometimes the State looks out for people and helps people, and children deserve better than to be abused by those too crazy or frightened to care about their welfare.

 

[Salem]

So what do you think? These older boys who supposedly "ran away" may have been right there all along? They wouldn't want boys coming back causing trouble or going to the police. That makes sense to me.

Sounds like some bodies are buried out there somewhere, male or female. Or both.

Oh my goodness....... I hope not! I think they chase off any young men who show any type of rebellous streak, but I wasn't thinking they might have killed them.

I do wish we would hear news that they have found the young woman who made the original call.

You know, I don't think CPS knew what they were getting into. Wasn't it rumored that there were only 200 or so people at that compound? Who would have thought they were going to end up with 400 children plus a hundred or so more adults?

Salem

 

[LinasK]

To me taking the women and kids out is no big deal. If they went into a house that was being used as a meth lab then they would remove them from there for their own protection. Seems to me that is what they are doing here as well, getting them out of a 'harmful' environment. And yes I think our gov't has the right to make that decision to a certain extent, if not then we could argue that no gov't agency should ever be allowed to go into a home where the children were being abused and remove them. Marrying your kids off at 13 or 14 or even 16 to 50 year old men is abuse and it does not matter if you were brought up in the environment and told it was the right thing or not, it is abuse. And people can wrap it in 'religion', but it's just a group of weak men that could not keep a women anyother way than brainwashing them. :twocents:

I agree!:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[philamena]

Glow,
Thanks so much for the well thought out and well written reply.
It certainly clears things up for me.

Salem,

I too, am concerned about the lack of teenage boys. Not quite sure what to think about that, but it bothers me

That scares me too. omg...the implications.

 

[SuziQ]

So what do you think? These older boys who supposedly "ran away" may have been right there all along? They wouldn't want boys coming back causing trouble or going to the police. That makes sense to me.

Have we heard that they ran away in this case, or do you mean the practice of running them off? Maybe the media only shows the women and children pics because it sells more. I know one thing. I would feel much better if it were confirmed that there are in fact boys from the ages of 10-17 in state custody. Because to think they are nowhere is just too outrageous...right?

Does anyone one wonder what kind of sweeping abuse the state has proof of to remove hundreds of kids? We know for the most part the women and kids aren't talking and there wasn't enough time for a case by case file to be made to present to the judge. So what did the authorities walk in a see that made them say "they all need to be removed...NOW". It appears that one broad penstroke may have been used to remove them all. At the presser, CPS pretty much stated they have proof of harm or potential harm that will be filed with the court and the public can view them.

 

[SuziQ]

I heard one of the reporters at the news conference today ask if cadaver dogs had been brought in. I wonder if they think someone might be buried under concrete?

Do remember what the reaction to that question was? Facial expressions or body language? It's late, but tomorrow I might have to watch that presser and see if I can catch that. I saw the presser already in progress today.

 

[Floh]

Those who have yet to learn about the 'lost boys' will find out something from this site:

The "Lost Boys"

They are just young men (mostly young teenagers) who have become competition to the older men who want more (and usually much younger) wives. They are kicked out of their homes and run out of town. They often leave with just the shirts on their backs. Most have minimum education and few life-skills. But, the Prophet said that they must go away. So their parents cast them out like unwanted pets. Now, they are out on the street trying to fend for themselves. They are known as the "Lost Boys".

Read the tragic stories of their attempting to survive and to integrate into mainstream society. These articles are in chronological order.


http://www.childbrides.org/boys.html

 

[trixie]

Do remember what the reaction to that question was? Facial expressions or body language? It's late, but tomorrow I might have to watch that presser and see if I can catch that. I saw the presser already in progress today.

From what In remember she just gave a quick very professional reply that she didn't have that information or something similar to that.

 

[Leila]

Do remember what the reaction to that question was? Facial expressions or body language? It's late, but tomorrow I might have to watch that presser and see if I can catch that. I saw the presser already in progress today.

The local newspaper mentioned jackhammers now being used, and there's reports of tunnels under the temple. Pilots flying over the area when the temple was under construction attest to a huge foundation being built.

It sounds like the authorities feel there's hiding places that haven't been uncovered. If they did, in fact, mention cadaver dogs, then there's a possibility that the police suspect more than abuse.

There's a lot about this that makes me believe that whatever is going on in that compound is major. The authorities went into the compound acting on a complaint of abuse with a minor. Whatever they found there resulted in an almost immediate decision to remove all children and those women who voluntarily wanted to be removed.

One of the reports in the local newspaper is concerning........why was a man hiding in the brush, and what was the "item" he had?