Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police

[Floh]

Here is Fort Concho: http://www.fortconcho.com/

where the women and children are staying for the present. a ticker tape on the site announces: "Due to the recent events at Fort Concho all site tours and the Speakers Series for April 9 have been cancelled"

 

[jubie]

Well I was getting ready to address the points you mentioned but then I read the above and figured maybe you want to just let it stand where it is :crazy:

That is ok with me, hey! Its less typing right? I think this whole topic has spiraled into the emotional category for the general public at large. Maybe later when it is all played out people will want to look at the larger picture. I know that I will! Maybe, maybe not. We will see.

Thanks for the conversation Barb :blowkiss:

I do find it offensive you insist that you're the only one looking at the 'big picture' and therefore the only enlightened one on the matter. Rubbish! It has been explained to you again and again that the LAW was followed and the NUMBER ONE PRIORITY is the CHILDREN BEING REMOVED FROM ABUSE.

 

[SuziQ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HonSp_Lmjrk&NR=1

wow, some smart strong brave young ladies

IMO, this video explains exactly how child victims become mothers and can't or won't leave the sect. To make matters worse, authorites will not help them. This leaves very few options. In the video, Flora Jessop explains it perfectly. They are married at 14 and by the time they are old enough to know better and want out, they have several children and are trapped.

Also, the ones who do dare leave or are kicked out don't fare well and are used as an example to scare the remaining flock from doing the same thing. The prophet will use this to put an exclamation point as to how evil the outside world is. Many of the teen girls who try to flee, by law are required to be returned to their parents and suffer horrible consequences upon return.

 

[barb0301]

Offer all the women and girls that are deemed in "crisis" such as the young pregnant girls AND anyone else who WANTS to leave the opportunity to do so. Don't insist. Offer.

Let the women and the small children who are definitely not in immediate danger have the choice to stay in their homes OR leave without using separation from their children to influence their choice.

I thought I'd give you a little more insight into my way of thinking Glow. I was a foster parent for over 15 years, and ended up with a sibling group of 6. Today, they are aged 25-35 and are still "our children" and have given us 14 beautiful grandchildren.

The first of the 6 came to live with us when he was 6 years old. He was the ONLY one of 7 siblings ever removed by the state of TX for suspected abuse. Now, having seen all the records that exist, there was MORE than enough evidence to remove all 7 kids. However, for whatever reason, they didn't. The kids ended up separated over the years between parents, aunts, etc. Slowly, we gained custody of them through their biological father who at least loved his kids enough to know he was not the best choice and advocated that they come to live with us. We also worked with a private agency that was willing to go to bat for these kids. Well, lo and behold, the horror stories my kids can tell you about the abuse that they all suffered is unimaginable.

To think that only 1 of the 7 was removed is horrific. If you could read the files, you would want to slap some of those CPS workers silly for not removing all of them. The oldest ended up in prison. Emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment, physical abuse, sexual, you name it, my kids have been there, done that, suffered and are still suffering for it today. Luckily, they have come a long, long, long way and are doing great now. That isn't to say that they don't have trouble dealing with it.

It was hard to assimilate them into our family and our culture. They had all lived in different households, under different "religious" (read "cult") value, etc. It has taken years. But the cycle is broken for our kids.

It isn't going to be easy for these kids of the FLDS. Hopefully, they will find advocates that never give up. I can tell you that it can work. It can happen. And the rewards are tremendous.

 

[jubie]

SuzieQ,

You're right. I sure wish there were more 'happy ending' stories of these girls or even boys getting away from this cult. Asbolute mind and body control.



J.

 

[Glow]

It's easy to manipulate the system if you know how. My sister worked at a clinic in a small town and she use to get so mad when women would drive up in their Mercedes and Jags with their hair and nails all done up and dressed in the lastest clothes and gold chains around their necks, dragging a couple of kids behind in their little Air Jordans and then get there doctor visits paid for by the tax payers.

I know what you mean. I used to have a little produce stand that my kids and I worked in together. We worked hard LONG hours trying to make a go of it and we had the same thing..... one lady in particular I remember, pulling up in her brand new Mustang, gold glittering up and down her arms, wanting to know if I took food stamps

 

[Glow]

I do find it offensive you insist that you're the only one looking at the 'big picture' and therefore the only enlightened one on the matter. Rubbish! It has been explained to you again and again that the LAW was followed and the NUMBER ONE PRIORITY is the CHILDREN BEING REMOVED FROM ABUSE.

I dont think that I am the only one looking at the big picture. By using the phrase general public I was not even meaning this forum. I meant just that, the general public. I am sorry jubie, that my words came across that way to you. I apologize for that.

 

[SuziQ]

IMO, when it comes to kids, the perps deserve to have their rights trampled. Unfortunatley these scumbags do have rights. And if those rights are trampled on, it negatively affects the case further down the line and a conviction gets tossed out the window. The kids end up not being helped at all.

I'm saying a prayer that these kids will now have a decent shot at life and that the authorities have all their T's crossed and I's dotted so the authorities can make that happen.

 

[barb0301]

I'm saying a prayer that these kids will now have a decent shot at life and that the authorities have all their T's crossed and I's dotted so the authorities can make that happen.

Agreed !!

 

[SuziQ]

The latest update is an arrest during the night. Lawmen opened a safe at a residence at YFZ and are removing evidence.

http://www.myeldorado.net/

 

[jubie]

I dont think that I am the only one looking at the big picture. By using the phrase general public I was not even meaning this forum. I meant just that, the general public. I am sorry jubie, that my words came across that way to you. I apologize for that.

Sure. Only problem is when you've been asked how else it should have been handled your ideas are not lawful or supported by CPS and when shown that you respond with 'well when everyone wants to look at the big picture....' Which since you're posting here at WS, within this forum and thread, it pretty much is responding to posts here. So what is your bigger picture? Do it your way regardless of the law or CPS?


So really, whatever. We'll have to agree to disagree. You, as I am, are welcome to your opinion. I think so far the children and mothers have beeen treated as well as can be expected. Better actually. All within the law and CPS guidelines.




Cheers,
Jubie

 

[jubie]

The latest update is an arrest during the night. Lawmen opened a safe at a residence at YFZ and are removing evidence.

http://www.myeldorado.net/

I sure hope there is something in writing regarding the underage girls, their 'unions' and babies.


J.

 

[Glow]

all of the bolded junk is me.

well hey you

I am going to try to post your thoughts and my answers in a way that is readable ok? I will put yours in bold


i could care less about the mothers. as a adult you have choices in life. they may have been hard or even horrible choices but they still handed their daughter over to these old men for sex. i can not set aside the abuse of the children because for me that is what this is about.

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you for mothers that did what you are describing. But what about the mothers that have a one or two year old and have not handed their child over for abuse? The ones that are being very good mothers? They had their children taken too. I totally agree that we should not set aside the abuse of children. I just believe it is possible to help those children without displacing the lives of other children to do it.

i would have loved to have seen the men taken into custody. unfortunately the burden of proof to arrest a adult is higher than to take a child into temporary custody. the government had to follow the laws as currently written. i am sure if you ask the case workers or the officers on the scene they would much rather have rounded up all the men and taken them to jail immediately.

but sherri they ARE detaining the men. The men are being held on the compound and the innocent ones have been displaced. It didn't have to be that way.
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/details-of-sect-life-emerge-after-raid/20080404201909990001

the problem with just offering the children in crisis the option of leaving is that it leaves the children the option to stay with the only family they know even if it means the rapes will continue. the mothers have a choice to stay but can we really give a child the choice to stay in a home where we have evidence of on going sexual abuse?

This is a very good point that you are making. I think you are right in that some of these teenage girls might not be able to visualize an escape to a different life while being in the same location they have always known. Being in a whole different environment might make them see that life outside the compound IS possible for them. I don't think anyone is trying to say that the toddlers and infants are being sexually abused. As far as I know the concern is the "older" children. Ranging in ages from 9 or 10 and up is that correct? If I am right about that, then why not leave the younger ones with their mothers just for now? That would have lessened the load on the system and enabled those trying to help th aim their help where it is most urgently needed and will do the most good.

i do understand the basic idea behind this but i do not agree. when one child in the home is sexually abuse i feel all children should be removed. add to that the fact in this case it can be near impossible to tell what child belongs to a adult mother and what child belongs to a child bride.


It isn't true that it is impossible to tell which children belong to which mother. That is what we are being told and are expected to "believe" but it simply isn't true. It is the paternity that is proving more complex. The mothers know who they are.

i do not find the idea of having multiple wives all that big of a deal. it is a common practice in some part of the world and i think of it as a cultural thing.


well you have just placed yourself in the minority viewpoint wise. I agree that it is somewhat a cultural thing although it has its roots deeply in religion. The reason that I mentioned the polygamists that were on Oprah was because I made it a point to watch that show. The lifestyle is so outside me value system and comfort level that I thought it would be good for me to look at it from another point of view. Interestingly, ALL the mainstream religions condoned polygamy to some degree in the past. The Jews, Catholics and Protestant religions all eventually abandoned the practice though.

once your way of life begins to accept child sex abuse i do find it abhorrent.

I think everyone finds that abhorrent But this i where it gets complicated isnt it? Having sex with a small child is universally understood as wrong. From that point on is where it gets complicated. In some times and ages past it wasn't unheard of for girls to be betrothed and even married at 13 or so. I remember reading here on WS on one of the Christmas threads, that Mary was thought to be 14 when she gave birth to Jesus. That was the accepted standard at that time. I am neither defending or condemning that I am just stating it as it is. Another way this can be viewed is from an anthropological viewpoint. Or maybe some would call it the evolutionary view point. When the body undergoes sexual maturation the body is then ready for sex. I think that some of the more ancient cultures went by that standard apparently. In our modern world we abhor that thought and think that the older people are when they have sex the better and we have set a mandatory magical age for that. 18 in some states. 16 in others. No matter, we still have 15 year olds giving birth into airplane toilets so I guess the evolutionary have a point as to when the BODY says it is ready for sex. Regardless the law of the land and the time period we live in currently, says that under 16 is too young and regardless of the "culture" or the "religion" of ANY group If they cross this law, then they are in violation of it.

adults may practice and marital choice they wish. child sex abuse under any reason including the claim of culture or religion should be wiped out.


I am cautious about wiping out a culture. Suppose for example there was really a planet X ( I am borrowing that from a thread here at WS) and lets suppose on that planet they believe no one should marry under the age of 21. Lets say that they also do not allow for any divorce if one has children. Lets say that they even see divorcing when there are children and remarrying and blending those children into a new family with a new "mom" and "dad' as the equivalent of the reassigning that the FLDS practice. Lets say that they see that one in every 50 infants is maltreated in our culture. That the number of babies being born and dumped by barely pubescent girls is on the rise. They make the decision to come here and invade our culture. They decide to take all the children here in America and the mothers can come or not. Would we be real happy with that?


But the question still remains what to do with this particular culture today, the FLDS. They are certainly not the worst abusers of children's rights globally speaking. That dubious honor probably goes to the practicers of female circumcision. But these people exist within the borders of our country. They are fringe dwellers in a country that was founded by people seeking a place to practice their religion as they saw fit. That was a highly idealistic venture on their part and makes the USA unique on the world scene. I just feel cautious about superimposing my own or anyone else's current view until we are very very sure we will truly be making things better and not just another variation of worse then they currently have.

 

[Glow]

I thought I'd give you a little more insight into my way of thinking Glow. I was a foster parent for over 15 years, and ended up with a sibling group of 6. Today, they are aged 25-35 and are still "our children" and have given us 14 beautiful grandchildren.

The first of the 6 came to live with us when he was 6 years old. He was the ONLY one of 7 siblings ever removed by the state of TX for suspected abuse. Now, having seen all the records that exist, there was MORE than enough evidence to remove all 7 kids. However, for whatever reason, they didn't. The kids ended up separated over the years between parents, aunts, etc. Slowly, we gained custody of them through their biological father who at least loved his kids enough to know he was not the best choice and advocated that they come to live with us. We also worked with a private agency that was willing to go to bat for these kids. Well, lo and behold, the horror stories my kids can tell you about the abuse that they all suffered is unimaginable.

To think that only 1 of the 7 was removed is horrific. If you could read the files, you would want to slap some of those CPS workers silly for not removing all of them. The oldest ended up in prison. Emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment, physical abuse, sexual, you name it, my kids have been there, done that, suffered and are still suffering for it today. Luckily, they have come a long, long, long way and are doing great now. That isn't to say that they don't have trouble dealing with it.

It was hard to assimilate them into our family and our culture. They had all lived in different households, under different "religious" (read "cult") value, etc. It has taken years. But the cycle is broken for our kids.

It isn't going to be easy for these kids of the FLDS. Hopefully, they will find advocates that never give up. I can tell you that it can work. It can happen. And the rewards are tremendous.

Yours is a beautiful story and you are now moving near a sainthood postion in my mind!

I am so glad that you were able to help so many. I cant imagine how much work that must have taken. Not to mention patience. You can tell a lot about people when they post on an inflammatory topic like this one on FLDS. What I can see about you is that you are qualified to see both sides having been a foster parent. You are also very patient and kind to one with a differing opinion (err that would be me wouldnt it :crazy: ) it has been a real pleasure to talk about this with you.

p.s. I see why your kids love you.

 

[BarnGoddess]

I know Jon Krakauer wrote about a Colorado compound that was being prepared and I found this very interesting article he wrote for the Eldorado newspaper. I'm going to check to see if there is any more recent activity in Mancos, Colorado.

http://www.childbrides.org/colorado_YFZ_exclusive_by_Krakauer.html

 

[Pepper]

I know Jon Krakauer wrote about a Colorado compound that was being prepared and I found this very interesting article he wrote for the Eldorado newspaper. I'm going to check to see if there is any more recent activity in Mancos, Colorado.

http://www.childbrides.org/colorado_YFZ_exclusive_by_Krakauer.html

Question: Don't they have to get building permits in Texas and Colorado? How were they able to build all of these huge buildings on a "hunting retreat" without permits? And with permits comes building inspectors making sure everything is up to code. And then what about zoning laws?

 

[curious1]

Oh geez BG. If I were Bramble I would fear for my safety. If they don't sell the land to them at what they want to pay for it, they may find a way to make sure he 'vacates' the land if ya know what I mean.

 

[LionRun]

IMO, when it comes to kids, the perps deserve to have their rights trampled. Unfortunatley these scumbags do have rights. And if those rights are trampled on, it negatively affects the case further down the line and a conviction gets tossed out the window. The kids end up not being helped at all.

I'm saying a prayer that these kids will now have a decent shot at life and that the authorities have all their T's crossed and I's dotted so the authorities can make that happen.

Bravo, Suzi! I'm praying too-for the children and for the mothers. Some of these mothers are children themselves who have been brainwashed over a long period of time, I imagine.

They know of no other way. They live in a vacuum filled with twisted beliefs and a, "religious leader" who is a pedophile who hurts girls in the name of religion. Disgusting. Absolutely horrid. I hope and pray that all of the women in children receive all necessary help, including to help them change their ways of thinking concerning the twisted harmful beliefs instilled in them by that cult.

Lion

 

[SuziQ]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3034330

(snips)
A legal battle is erupting in the wake of the raid on a Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) polygamist compound in Texas, and it's possible the number of children involved is growing.
***

But the number of children may have gone up again. Late last night we saw a large charter bus arriving at Fort Concho, escorted by several law enforcement vehicles. We believe that was another delivery of children from the FLDS ranch near Eldorado. Later today, Texas officials may release some of the 401 court affidavits they've prepared to support the accusations of abuse. That will trigger a court battle that could remove some of the children permanently from their families. Lawyers and guardians are being appointed to represent the children's interests.

 

[BarnGoddess]

Here's a great website dedicated to helping survivors.

The HOPE Organization is a non-profit group dedicated to assisting survivors of abuse within polygamous relationships
on their courageous journey to personal freedom.

http://www.childbrides.org/

It's full of news on the FLDS. Articles, etc. Great find.