Was Burke involved?

[Chrishope]

Another question for BDI theorists,

Do you think BR did both the head bash and the strangulation?

There are various theories on strangulation, some believing it was done with the garrotte, some believing the garrotte is just staging and the real strangulation done by hand. Either way, I wonder if BR really had the strength to make furrows that deep in her neck. I don't think he could have done it by hand, and I'm not too sure he'd be able to even with the garrotte.

I also wonder if he would have strangled her after bashing her on the head. The blow to the head would have knocked her out and it seems unlikely, to me, that he had enough rage to start choking her while she lay motionless.

Same problem if the strangulation comes prior to the head bash. Why do both? Do BDI theorists really believe BR was that angry at his sister ?

It's one thing to swing a club or a bat, but strangulation is up close and personal. Nothing accidental about it.

If Burke didn't do both the bash and the strangulation, then one (or both) of the parents had to do one of those -either the bashing of the skull or the strangulation. That means they had to have discovered what happened very shortly after Burke caused the initial injury, and had to very quickly decide to make sure she was dead. So, one or both parents hear something, check it out, find out what BR did (either bash or strangle) then within minutes decide to bash/strangle (whichever one BR didn't do) ? Almost instant decision to kill? No ambulance call? This can still be passed off as an accident at this point, and most parents would be hoping the injured child is still alive and something can be done.

For me, BDI just doesn't add up.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't think BR did the strangulation. The strangulation was either staging or part of a game. If it was staging, then I believe the parents did it as part of a coverup. If it was part of a game, then I think JR's older son was involved, with BR being there as well. The head bash could have been JAR as well, and done to shut her up, not to kill her, just as would be the case if Patsy or JR had bashed her. If the head bash was done by JAR with BR present, it would be kept from the public just as it would if it were BR alone. As an accomplice under 10, the older brother would also not be able to be prosecuted, simply because BR was involved. It would be a dead end. Just like it IS.

 

[Chrishope]

I don't think BR did the strangulation. The strangulation was either staging or part of a game. If it was staging, then I believe the parents did it as part of a coverup. If it was part of a game, then I think JR's older son was involved, with BR being there as well. The head bash could have been JAR as well, and done to shut her up, not to kill her, just as would be the case if Patsy or JR had bashed her. If the head bash was done by JAR with BR present, it would be kept from the public just as it would if it were BR alone. As an accomplice under 10, the older brother would also not be able to be prosecuted, simply because BR was involved. It would be a dead end. Just like it IS.

I don't understand why the older brother couldn't be prosecuted. I don't believe that is correct.

 

[UKGuy]

I take it then that you think considerable time passed between the time JBR was injured and when this was discovered by the Rs? What would you estimate the time to be?

How much time do you think elapsed between the strangulation, and the bash ? (or vice versa?)

How do you imagine the Rs became aware of the situation? I mean, if BDI, did he then run to their room and admit it? Or did he go back to bed and the R's discovered it hours later? What made them get up at say 2am, and discover JBR had been killed?

What do you believe to be the TOD for JBR?

I would place TOD at approx. midnight - though I'll be happy to give a couple hours leeway. If I'm not mistaken she was in full rigor at 1pm when she was "found". Most sources I've seen say full rigor occurs about 12 hours after death - though several variables are involved. That would mean she died around midnight to 1am.

I'm not making any distinction between loose ends and contradictions. I'm saying they will exist (whatever you want to call them) in any case - murder/ coverup, or actual kidnapping. Every contradiction does not implicate the suspect. It does on TV because there is only an hour to find the killer, but in real life there is just unexplainable "stuff". It seems illogical, but it's there.



In my estimation, they had about 6 hours to stage and re-stage. I don't think the contradictions were due to lack of time, but rather to lack of experience. They had not staged the kidnapping/murder of their own daughter before. They could not think of every detail, nor think calmly and rationally.

As to some of the specifics you mention -

I don't know that the hair ties were a loose end. The overall story they are telling is that the intruder redressed JBR. That, in and of itself, is a contradiction from what I'd expect an intruder to do. (I'd think the intruder would molest her then make a hasty exit from the house) But, if an intruder did redress her (and we know that's not the case) who's to say what he'd put on her? Why not hair ties? It's no more/less senseless than redressing her at all or putting size 12 panties on her.

If they knew of the pineapple snack I'd expect the story to be we came home, JBR had some pineapple, then went to bed. This suggests to me they didn't know. If I recall correctly from the autopsy report, she had eaten about 10 CCs of pineapple. That's what - maybe 2 small cubes of pineapple? She could easily have eaten that amount while her parents were in another room, just for a minute or less.

The size 12s are puzzling on many levels. The size is a contradiction no matter what. Possibly the size was meant to infer that the intruder didn't know the correct size, whereas the parents certainly would? Perhaps they thought the Wednesday feature was of overriding importance?

In all these cases, time, or lack thereof, would not have been the reason for doing/not doing something. IOWs they didn't put hair ties on her because they lacked time. They didn't put 12s on her because they lacked the time to get the correct size out of her dresser drawer. They didn't write a 2 and a half page RN because they'd arrived late on the scene and had to work fast.

If anything I'd lean more to the idea that they had too much time and over-thought things and had time to re-do things, rather than arriving late on the scene and not having time to deal with contradictions.

It's clear that they had to take time to wipe her down, to remove forensic evidence. An intruder might have done the same. Everything else that was done, after wiping her down, was time consuming, not time saving.

Basically nothing they did after wiping her down made any real sense. An intruder would not have redressed her, would not have written a RN post murder (though some people seem to want to believe it was a kidnapping gone bad, thus explaining the note and the body together) would not have placed the body in the WC, would not have wrapped her in a blanket....and so on.

The mistakes were fundamental errors in thinking. Errors in story telling, if you like. They didn't know how to stage it. They didn't know how to tell the story of an intruder/killer. Having no experience in these matters, it wouldn't matter how much time they had. Contradictions emerge from their wrong decisions, not from lack of time. The wrong decisions aren't from time pressure, but rather from not knowing what they were doing.

Chrishope,

I take it then that you think considerable time passed between the time JBR was injured and when this was discovered by the Rs? What would you estimate the time to be?

How much time do you think elapsed between the strangulation, and the bash ? (or vice versa?)

Its not what I think but what the evidence permits. It is a possibility that there was a large time gap between JonBenet being sexually assaulted and her being asphyxiated. The amount of time appears to be around 1-2 hours.

I would place TOD at approx. midnight - though I'll be happy to give a couple hours leeway. If I'm not mistaken she was in full rigor at 1pm when she was "found". Most sources I've seen say full rigor occurs about 12 hours after death - though several variables are involved. That would mean she died around midnight to 1am.

TOD is an unknown item due to Coroner Meyer not undertaking the relevant procedures, and with JonBenet being wrapped in a blanket and deposited in a warm room.

I'm not making any distinction between loose ends and contradictions. I'm saying they will exist (whatever you want to call them) in any case - murder/ coverup, or actual kidnapping. Every contradiction does not implicate the suspect. It does on TV because there is only an hour to find the killer, but in real life there is just unexplainable "stuff". It seems illogical, but it's there.

Sure and just like real life you should not use unexplainable "stuff" to account for variations in theory. Consider Who Killed JFK: Castro, CIA, Mafia, Lone Killer? Lots of unexplainable "stuff" here, which allows for a Magic Bullet and the Zapruder Film, which has missing and damaged frames, all put down to unexplainable "stuff" by FBI's J. Edgar Hoover.

In my estimation, they had about 6 hours to stage and re-stage. I don't think the contradictions were due to lack of time, but rather to lack of experience. They had not staged the kidnapping/murder of their own daughter before. They could not think of every detail, nor think calmly and rationally.

With all respect I think you are confusing errors due to lack of experience with errors within the staging, given the theorised time, the latter should be minimal.

Why not hair ties? It's no more/less senseless than redressing her at all or putting size 12 panties on her.

Its not unexplainable "stuff" is it? It also is not Ramsey staging is it? If it were John or Patsy would have told us as part of their version of events, when placing JonBenet to bed? Its also not intruder staging, since there is zero evidence demonstrating an intruder was ever in the house.

So we now have two options left, one is that the hair-ties are residue from a prior staging, or that JonBenet was wearing her bedtime clothing when injured, if you now factor in the barbie nightgown and the missing pink pajama bottoms, things start to become less senseless not more.

If they knew of the pineapple snack I'd expect the story to be we came home, JBR had some pineapple, then went to bed. This suggests to me they didn't know. If I recall correctly from the autopsy report, she had eaten about 10 CCs of pineapple. That's what - maybe 2 small cubes of pineapple? She could easily have eaten that amount while her parents were in another room, just for a minute or less.

I agree, this appears less a staging error than an omission due lack of information?

The size 12s are puzzling on many levels. The size is a contradiction no matter what. Possibly the size was meant to infer that the intruder didn't know the correct size, whereas the parents certainly would? Perhaps they thought the Wednesday feature was of overriding importance?

The size-12's are a staging error, they have nothing to do with JonBenet's death. The R's wish you to think either JonBenet dressed herself or the intruder redressed her in the size-12's.

The mistakes were fundamental errors in thinking. Errors in story telling, if you like. They didn't know how to stage it. They didn't know how to tell the story of an intruder/killer. Having no experience in these matters, it wouldn't matter how much time they had. Contradictions emerge from their wrong decisions, not from lack of time. The wrong decisions aren't from time pressure, but rather from not knowing what they were doing.

So they just told the wrong story and never thought it through properly, with their ignorance and lack of experience leading to errors. Assuming a four hour time-frame I rather doubt this.



.

 

[UKGuy]

Another question for BDI theorists,

Do you think BR did both the head bash and the strangulation?

There are various theories on strangulation, some believing it was done with the garrotte, some believing the garrotte is just staging and the real strangulation done by hand. Either way, I wonder if BR really had the strength to make furrows that deep in her neck. I don't think he could have done it by hand, and I'm not too sure he'd be able to even with the garrotte.

I also wonder if he would have strangled her after bashing her on the head. The blow to the head would have knocked her out and it seems unlikely, to me, that he had enough rage to start choking her while she lay motionless.

Same problem if the strangulation comes prior to the head bash. Why do both? Do BDI theorists really believe BR was that angry at his sister ?

It's one thing to swing a club or a bat, but strangulation is up close and personal. Nothing accidental about it.

If Burke didn't do both the bash and the strangulation, then one (or both) of the parents had to do one of those -either the bashing of the skull or the strangulation. That means they had to have discovered what happened very shortly after Burke caused the initial injury, and had to very quickly decide to make sure she was dead. So, one or both parents hear something, check it out, find out what BR did (either bash or strangle) then within minutes decide to bash/strangle (whichever one BR didn't do) ? Almost instant decision to kill? No ambulance call? This can still be passed off as an accident at this point, and most parents would be hoping the injured child is still alive and something can be done.

For me, BDI just doesn't add up.

Chrishope,
You can have a BDI where Burke strangles JonBenet manually, but does not kill her, then she falls to the floor hitting some object on the way.

The parents only discover later that JonBenet is dead. The majority of the wine-cellar staging has been fabricated by Patsy including the garrote, which may have been added after JonBenet was asphyxiated.

So in BDI you have a series of steps each involving a different Ramsey, each contributing to the staging, e.g. Burke, John then Patsy.

A potential error in the other RDI theories is in assuming that there was no time interval between JonBenet first being injured and her final asphyxiation!


.

 

[Flatlander]

I don't understand why the older brother couldn't be prosecuted. I don't believe that is correct.

I can't answer for DeeDee249, but I will state this: if JAR was involved he was spirited away to Atlanta on a special incognito plane that night. There is no proof that he was there other than the Barnhills stating they saw him on the 25th.

 

[DeeDee249]

JB would have never gotten a hole in her skull and 8-inch fracture like that by falling and hitting ANYTHING. There just isn't enough force in a fall (unless from a great height) to do so- opinions aside, here is where the laws of physics override theories.
Her injuries are what the coroner said they are- blunt force trauma. She was based with a blunt object. NOT the other way around. She did not hit something- rather something hit her.

 

[DeeDee249]

The Colorado laws preventing BR from being named as a suspect or charged with any crime also serve to prevent an accomplice, even one who was over 10, from also being named a suspect or charged in the crime if doing so would reveal the identity of the child who was under 10.

 

[Mendara]

JB would have never gotten a hole in her skull and 8-inch fracture like that by falling and hitting ANYTHING. There just isn't enough force in a fall (unless from a great height) to do so- opinions aside, here is where the laws of physics override theories.
Her injuries are what the coroner said they are- blunt force trauma. She was based with a blunt object. NOT the other way around. She did not hit something- rather something hit her.

A moment of rage. Bashed her over the head in anger, then family meeting to figure out what to do..it took all night but they did it. Could have been any of them...mo

 

[BOESP]

With due respect to everyone's opinion (we all have one), blunt force trauma can mean you get hit with something but it can also mean you hit something. It isn't proof that an object struck JonBenet.

 

[Chrishope]

The Colorado laws preventing BR from being named as a suspect or charged with any crime also serve to prevent an accomplice, even one who was over 10, from also being named a suspect or charged in the crime if doing so would reveal the identity of the child who was under 10.

Do you have a source for that?

 

[Chrishope]

JB would have never gotten a hole in her skull and 8-inch fracture like that by falling and hitting ANYTHING. There just isn't enough force in a fall (unless from a great height) to do so- opinions aside, here is where the laws of physics override theories.
Her injuries are what the coroner said they are- blunt force trauma. She was based with a blunt object. NOT the other way around. She did not hit something- rather something hit her.

I think this is right -or shall we say, for more likely.

As DeeDee says, she'd have to have fallen from a great height. If the blow to the head happened on any floor of the house, she could only have fallen from the height of the ceiling. I don't know what the ceiling height is in the home - 7' is pretty common, though my house has 8' ceilings (old house). Some high end homes might be higher, but usually not.

I don't know if a fall down a flight of stairs could have done this or not, but stairs aside, she simply could not have fallen from a great enough height to do this kind of injury. Someone struck her on the head with a blunt object, such as a Maglite, or a baseball bat.

Another factor is the size of the assailant. Burke wasn't that much taller than JB so I'm skeptical he could have swung the flashlight with sufficient force to put an 8.5 inch crack in her skull. It was either an adult, or the weapon was something other than the flashlight.

 

[BOESP]

She could have been shoved, pushed, or while lying on the floor jerked up and back on the floor. She could have been pulled by a shirt collar and rammed into a door knob/handle (check JonBenet's height and the location of the skull impact point against the height of the average door handle).

One poster in the past, Solace, suggested Patsy could have grabbed JonBenet by the collar and forced her into the bathtub where her head was pushed against a faucet or fixture. Solace suggested the elongated, triangular-shaped bruise on JonBenet's neck matched an identical bruise Solace's son received when he was grabbed by the top of his karate uniform, then the fabric was twisted.

The above are a few possibilities that don't involve falling from a great height, although that scenario is also a possibility.

JonBenet may have been struck on the head with a flashlight, baseball bat, or other object, but the wound, in my opinion, the autopsy report and the photos indicate otherwise.

 

[DeeDee249]

Do you have a source for that?

Sure. All the reading I've done. Though I am sure you can research Colorado's laws online. Though they may have changed by now. But in 1996, it was no child under 10.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,

Its not what I think but what the evidence permits. It is a possibility that there was a large time gap between JonBenet being sexually assaulted and her being asphyxiated. The amount of time appears to be around 1-2 hours.

Yes, but what I'm concerned with is the time between the blow to the head, and the asphyxiation. From what I've read, 20-60 minutes seems to be the probable interval - though it could be shorter.

TOD is an unknown item due to Coroner Meyer not undertaking the relevant procedures, and with JonBenet being wrapped in a blanket and deposited in a warm room.

True, we don't know TOD with precision, and the coroner couldn't have given us a down to the minute TOD anyway. But we can make an educated guess. Was the WC significantly warmer than the rest of the house? She was in a blanket. She was in full rigor at 1pm when she was "found".

With all respect I think you are confusing errors due to lack of experience with errors within the staging, given the theorised time, the latter should be minimal.

Basically all I'm doing is replying to an earlier comment you made, that mistakes were due to arriving late on the scene and not having time to think things through. (Or did I misunderstand you?) I don't think the errors were due to insufficient time, but insufficient knowledge of what an intruder killing would look like. The RN coupled with a dead body, is a dead giveaway that there was no intruder. It should only have taken a fraction of a second to realize that.

Its not unexplainable "stuff" is it? It also is not Ramsey staging is it? If it were John or Patsy would have told us as part of their version of events, when placing JonBenet to bed? Its also not intruder staging, since there is zero evidence demonstrating an intruder was ever in the house.

So we now have two options left, one is that the hair-ties are residue from a prior staging, or that JonBenet was wearing her bedtime clothing when injured, if you now factor in the barbie nightgown and the missing pink pajama bottoms, things start to become less senseless not more.

I'm sorry, I don't know whether the ties were in her hair at the White's party or not, can you refresh my memory.

The size-12's are a staging error, they have nothing to do with JonBenet's death. The R's wish you to think either JonBenet dressed herself or the intruder redressed her in the size-12's.

Yes, they are a staging error, one not committed due to lack of time. It couldn't have taken much time to get the right size.

The intruder redressing her is another example of not knowing what a real intruder would do. IMO, a real intruder would not have redressed her at all, in size 12s, in longjohns, not in anything.

So they just told the wrong story and never thought it through properly, with their ignorance and lack of experience leading to errors. Assuming a four hour time-frame I rather doubt this.

Yes, I think that is basically it. They told the story of what they imagined an intruder might do. A story that the police knew right away was fishy. It wouldn't have mattered how much time they had, they didn't know how to stage it believably.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think this is right -or shall we say, for more likely.

As DeeDee says, she'd have to have fallen from a great height. If the blow to the head happened on any floor of the house, she could only have fallen from the height of the ceiling. I don't know what the ceiling height is in the home - 7' is pretty common, though my house has 8' ceilings (old house). Some high end homes might be higher, but usually not.

I don't know if a fall down a flight of stairs could have done this or not, but stairs aside, she simply could not have fallen from a great enough height to do this kind of injury. Someone struck her on the head with a blunt object, such as a Maglite, or a baseball bat.

Another factor is the size of the assailant. Burke wasn't that much taller than JB so I'm skeptical he could have swung the flashlight with sufficient force to put an 8.5 inch crack in her skull. It was either an adult, or the weapon was something other than the flashlight.

A fall from a height or down stairs just didn't happen. In a case like that, there are OTHER indications, such as bruising or multiple breaks or fractures; there wouldn't be just this one fracture in a part of the skull that wouldn't be the area of contact in a fall. Our theories all vary, but science, forensics and physics do not. She didn't fall down the stairs or from a height.
She could possibly have been slammed into something, but it would have had to have been something that stuck out, like a faucet, because the point of impact actually punched a hole in her skull, with the displaced section still inside her skull. This wouldn't happen if she had been slammed into a wall, or even against a tub or sink edge. That would certainly cause a fracture, but not the displaced piece.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
You can have a BDI where Burke strangles JonBenet manually, but does not kill her, then she falls to the floor hitting some object on the way.

The parents only discover later that JonBenet is dead. The majority of the wine-cellar staging has been fabricated by Patsy including the garrote, which may have been added after JonBenet was asphyxiated.

So in BDI you have a series of steps each involving a different Ramsey, each contributing to the staging, e.g. Burke, John then Patsy.

A potential error in the other RDI theories is in assuming that there was no time interval between JonBenet first being injured and her final asphyxiation!


.

Well I doubt there is anywhere in the house that Burke could have placed her, at sufficient height, so that she'd hit her head with enough force to make a crack over 8 inches long in her skull. Seems far more likely someone struck her on the head with something.

If the parents discovered later that JB was dead, then BR would have to have done both the blow to the head, and the strangulation. I find it a little hard to believe he'd do both because I think his rage would be spent after hitting her in the head. I could be wrong. I'm just trying to get into the head of a 9 year old with a bad case of sibling rivalry (since that is what most BDI theorists think motivated the killing). If it was a momentary fit of rage would the rage still be strong enough, after the blow to the head, to also strangle? There is no way to pin this down to an exact answer, I'm just trying to think about what seems likely.

I do think the staging was done, at least partly, independently.

 

[Chrishope]

A fall from a height or down stairs just didn't happen. In a case like that, there are OTHER indications, such as bruising or multiple breaks or fractures; there wouldn't be just this one fracture in a part of the skull that wouldn't be the area of contact in a fall. Our theories all vary, but science, forensics and physics do not. She didn't fall down the stairs or from a height.
She could possibly have been slammed into something, but it would have had to have been something that stuck out, like a faucet, because the point of impact actually punched a hole in her skull, with the displaced section still inside her skull. This wouldn't happen if she had been slammed into a wall, or even against a tub or sink edge. That would certainly cause a fracture, but not the displaced piece.

You're right, it could not have been a fall down the stairs as there would be other indications of that kind of fall.

 

[DeeDee249]

Well I doubt there is anywhere in the house that Burke could have placed her so that she'd hit her head with sufficient force to make a crack over 8 inches long in her skull. Seems far more likely someone struck her on the head with something.

If the parents discovered later that JB was dead, then BR would have to have done both the blow to the head, and the strangulation. I find it a little hard to believe he'd do both because I think his rage would be spent after hitting her in the head. I could be wrong. I'm just trying to get into the head of a 9 year old with a bad case of sibling rivalry (since that is what most BDI theorists think motivated the killing). If it was a momentary fit of rage would the rage still be strong enough, after the blow to the head, to also strangle? There is no way to pin this down to an exact answer, I'm just trying to think about what seems likely.

I do think the staging was done, at least partly, independently.

I totally agree, I can't see BR doing all of this on his own. To bash another child like that in a sibling rage or to shut her up is one thing- to stage a strangulation (which turned out to be a REAL strangulation) is another. The bash and sexual activity may or may not be BR, but the strangulation, especially if it was staged, was not, MOO. If this whole thing was the work of the two brothers, I'd have to say JAR was the primary perp.

 

[Agatha_C]

The Colorado laws preventing BR from being named as a suspect or charged with any crime also serve to prevent an accomplice, even one who was over 10, from also being named a suspect or charged in the crime if doing so would reveal the identity of the child who was under 10.

DeeDee, couldnt the parents have been charged with failure to protect or any other law that holds them accountable for the negligence that led to their childs death? I know that there are many laws of this nature just not sure how that would play out in CO and the hideous laws that protect their juvenile criminals. Im not saying BR did this, just finding myself much like Alice of Wonderland, curiouser and curiouser..