Was Burke involved?

[Bonnette]

...Had he known to be looking for it before he reflected the scalp, he might have seen something.

...or if the head-bash instrument had had a sharp edge, in which case her skin would likely have been broken. A golf club has a rounded, elongated edge which would diffuse force to some extent; also, the wound to JBR's skull bore the rectangular shape of a putter. This is why I believe that a golf club was the weapon, and not the flashlight (which, having a smaller surface area, would be more likely to rend the skin). MOO! I know that many people view the flashlight as the weapon.

 

[UKGuy]

otg,

In regards of other possible weapon which could cause JBR head injury...Yesterday, while reading/re-reading AR, I got kind of 'new' idea (I don't know if it ever was discussed here or on FFJ).

JBR was 47" tall. The head injury has the 'rectangular' hole: 1 3/4" x 1/2".

Based on photo's from Ramseys house (from candyrose archive), the inner doors of Ramsey house have the 'knob'-style handles. (Except the kitchen. Kitchen has the 'pull-hand' style handles). Per builder's code, the standard knob-style handles should be mounted on the door at 40" hight from the raw floor. The standard dimension of the round knob handle (are you ready?) is 1 3/4" x 1/2".

With the forcefull blow + the minimum angle for projected impact + JBR being 47" tall = her head should hit the SIDE of the knob handle right on the spot as AR indicates, leaving the corresponding with knob size hole. Do you know what I mean? I know you're one of the best methodical 'researcher' here......What's your opinion?

OpenMind4U,
aha! Now thats what I call good thinking robin, now where is the Batmobile, we have got to visit Commissioner Gillian B. Loeb, we might have a case here.

.

 

[OpenMind4U]

OpenMind4U,
aha! Now thats what I call good thinking robin, now where is the Batmobile, we have got to visit Commissioner Gillian B. Loeb, we might have a case here.

.

LOL...I'm not familiar with Batman-stuff...sorry...I'll do the serious talk with my grandson - maybe he knows who's this Loeb is....Meanwhile, I'll provide more pictures so otg, you and others could do the peer review. I'll post shortly...

 

[OpenMind4U]

That's very interesting, OM4U. I haven't been able to find a good picture of any of the door knobs at ACR. So if you have a link, I'd appreciate it.

I know that Meyer described the depressed fracture as "rectangular", and everyone has accepted it, but he was wrong (and actually this will go further in the direction you are going than if he had been correct). Take a look at what I posted here at FFJ. It's easy to see that this is not rectangular -- it's oval-shaped (almost perfectly). Another thing you'll see on the edge of the oval at the lambdoid suture is (I believe) an intra-sutural bone (also called a wormian bone, named after Ole Worm -- really).

I'm still trying to resolve the issue (in my mind anyway) about the length of time between head blow and strangulation. I'll be posting a lot more on this when I'm finished.
.

otg,

Yes, I saw your picture earlier. Therefore, I would like you to review the following pictures. Of course, would be nice to really have the 'peer review' to make sure we're not chasing the 'dead' mouse.......

Here is an example of 'pull-hand' handle in Ramsey kitchen.
http://www.acandyrose.com/kitchenphone.gif

Here is the round knob handle on the door of butler pantry.
http://www.acandyrose.com/070butlerdoor.jpg

The same kind of ROUND KNOB handle is inside of many of Ramsey's doors (as much as I can see from available pictures).
Burke room:
http://www.acandyrose.com/042burkebedroom.jpg

Basement:
http://www.acandyrose.com/basement-doors.jpg

Now, regarding the round door knob size. Without knowing EXECTLY which model/manufacturing year Ramsey's had - I don't want to speculate on the size. But as the standard round knob size (I just measured again on my doors, I build my house 21 years ago) is 1 3/4" diameter x 1/2" thick.

Here are many different pictures of the round door knobs. http://www.houzz.com/photos/532833/Classic-Full-Dummy-with-Knob--Venetian-Bronze-modern-knobs-

Each one could have different diameter starting from 1 3/4" up to 2 1/4". So, it's very important to find out which door knobs Ramsey had.

But could you see what I mean by striking the head on the edge of the knob?...it could produce an EXACT pattern as your picture has: enlongated-ellipse shape... So, what should we do next? How to make an experiment?

 

[otg]

...or if the head-bash instrument had had a sharp edge, in which case her skin would likely have been broken. A golf club has a rounded, elongated edge which would diffuse force to some extent; also, the wound to JBR's skull bore the rectangular shape of a putter. This is why I believe that a golf club was the weapon, and not the flashlight (which, having a smaller surface area, would be more likely to rend the skin). MOO! I know that many people view the flashlight as the weapon.

I had for all these years leaned toward a golf putter being the object that caused the "hole" in JonBenet's skull, Bonnette. But lately, after studying other "depressed" fractures, I'm beginning to lean toward something else. But I agree, there's no way the flashlight could have caused that wound (for too many reasons to go into now). The putter always appealed to me because of its effect if used like a hammer, with the "heel" coming down squarely on the skull:

Wouldn't take much strength to cause a lot of damage like that. (Even a "frail and weakly" person could manage that.)

Also consider the size of the depressed fracture... On a piece of paper, measure 1-3/4" x 1/2", and then draw an oval within those bounds. I'd be willing to bet that what you end up with is much smaller than what you imagined in your mind. Yes? So because of the size of the hole, it couldn't be the face of a putter as some have imagined that caused the "divot" in her skull.

And then, of course, there is the availability... The Ramsey's had golf clubs everywhere. There were three bags of clubs in the basement, and a closet there also that had loose clubs leaned up against the wall. There was also one putter that was found outside the house, IIRC, in some bushes.

One other reason I suspected a golf club... As everyone knows, there was that incident in Michigan just a couple of years earlier with a putter and you-know-who wielding it.

In any event, I'll post later why I don't think now that it was a putter (But it certainly was not the flashlight.). On the other hand, OM4U has a very intriguing thought above.
.

 

[DeeDee249]

If you understood the laws of physics, you can see how a hole like that and large crack half-way around her skull could not have happened by slamming her into something, whether it was a doorknob, door handle, tub toilet or sink edge. She didn't weigh enough (under 50 lbs) and even if an adult had slammed her, there simply wasn't enough force to produce that kind of damage. Mass x velocity, etc.
I am not saying a slam like that wouldn't cause a fracture- it would. But not a fracture like that, and the hole as well.
This is the same reason why it could never have happened from a fall. She was only about 4 feet tall. For damage like that, she'd have had to be dropped from a great height. Besides, the damage in a fall from a great height or not would be different. A different kind of fracture.

 

[txsvicki]

Has anyone who studied physics ever done any calculations to try and determine length of weapon, how wide the grasp end had to be, one or two hands used, height above and behind, etc in ruling out the flashlight?

 

[otg]

otg,

Yes, I saw your picture earlier. Therefore, I would like you to review the following pictures. Of course, would be nice to really have the 'peer review' to make sure we're not chasing the 'dead' mouse.......

Here is an example of 'pull-hand' handle in Ramsey kitchen.
http://www.acandyrose.com/kitchenphone.gif

Here is the round knob handle on the door of butler pantry.
http://www.acandyrose.com/070butlerdoor.jpg

The same kind of ROUND KNOB handle is inside of many of Ramsey's doors (as much as I can see from available pictures).
Burke room:
http://www.acandyrose.com/042burkebedroom.jpg

Basement:
http://www.acandyrose.com/basement-doors.jpg

Now, regarding the round door knob size. Without knowing EXECTLY which model/manufacturing year Ramsey's had - I don't want to speculate on the size. But as the standard round knob size (I just measured again on my doors, I build my house 21 years ago) is 1 3/4" diameter x 1/2" thick.

Here are many different pictures of the round door knobs. http://www.houzz.com/photos/532833/Classic-Full-Dummy-with-Knob--Venetian-Bronze-modern-knobs-

Each one could have different diameter starting from 1 3/4" up to 2 1/4". So, it's very important to find out which door knobs Ramsey had.

But could you see what I mean by striking the head on the edge of the knob?...it could produce an EXACT pattern as your picture has: enlongated-ellipse shape... So, what should we do next? How to make an experiment?

I definitely think you may be on to something, OM4U. It could be coincidental though that the diameters are the same as the size of the fracture, because after all, the door knob wouldn't have gone into her skull all the way to its widest part without some obvious damage on the outside of her skull.

And then there's the matter of how much force would have to be exerted to force a person's skull against a relatively stationary object like a door knob to cause that type of fracture. That is the reason I had always rejected the idea of her head being pushed against some object in her bathroom.

I think this is something well worth looking into, OM4U. Got any spare skulls I could borrow? (I've used all mine up.)
.
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[OpenMind4U]

otg, UKGuy...

It's just HIT me. Remember ST theory (PR in raged, hit JBR on the FAUCET in her bathroom? OMG, the 'faucet'. Faucet should have a round KNOBS to control the water temp. This is getting more exciting....looks like ST (and possibly LE) was thinking about this possibility??? I'm going back to search for more pictures....

 

[Bonnette]

OM4U has a very intriguing thought above.

My only problem with the doorknob theory is that JBR's body would have been the driving force in that scenario, and I don't think she weighed enough for a fracture of such magnitude to be the result of a collision with a doorknob - even if she had been hurled against it. The putter, on the other hand, vectors a great deal of force through its length and terminus, even when wielded by a small person.

Still, though some scenarios strike me as more likely than others, I'm not wedded to my own ideas about the case - mainly, I'm just sickened that we will probably never know for a fact what happened in that home.

(Edited to add: I just saw OM4U's post about the faucet. Maybe...but I think that would have broken the skin or caused an immediate weal to develop (visible externally to the medical examiner). A faucet would have produced a fracture closer in dimension and damage to one done by a flashlight, I would think.)

 

[OpenMind4U]

I definitely think you may be on to something, OM4U. It could be coincidental though that the diameters are the same as the size of the fracture, because after all, the door knob wouldn't have gone into her skull all the way to its widest part without some obvious damage on the outside of her skull.And then there's the matter of how much force would have to be exerted to force a person's skull against a relatively stationary object like a door knob to cause that type of fracture. That is the reason I had always rejected the idea of her head being pushed against some object in her bathroom.

I think this is something well worth looking into, OM4U. Got any spare skulls I could borrow? (I've used all mine up.)
.
.

Absolutely agree....therefore, we need to find FOR SURE which kind of knobs Ramsey had. Like I said, (and you can confirm on Google) - diameters starts from 1 3/4" up to 2 1/4"....To me, it was interesting because of the oval (I called ellipce shape and very narrow 1/2" width.

ooops, forgot to answer you Q: yes, I have the spare skull...let me ask my husband when he's available....

 

[otg]

Has anyone who studied physics ever done any calculations to try and determine length of weapon, how wide the grasp end had to be, one or two hands used, height above and behind, etc in ruling out the flashlight?

I never studied physics, txsvicki, so perhaps I'm not qualified to answer your question. However, I can tell you this: The hole in JonBenet's skull does not fit with what Dr. Spitz (originator of the Maglight theory) demonstrated here:

In fact, he's not even hitting the skull where the AR describes the depressed fracture as being.

Okay, also (it's your fault -- you got me started):

• The end of the flashlight is the lightest part of it.
• The end would not have caused a hole the shape shown on JB's skull (flat on one side).
• Had it been swung with enough force to cause that much of a fracture, it would surely have also damaged the lens and the bulb of the flashlight.

I'm telling you, Spitz is full of it. The Maglight did not cause the fracture in JonBenet's skull.
.

 

[Bonnette]

If you understood the laws of physics, you can see how a hole like that and large crack half-way around her skull could not have happened by slamming her into something, whether it was a doorknob, door handle, tub toilet or sink edge. She didn't weigh enough (under 50 lbs) and even if an adult had slammed her, there simply wasn't enough force to produce that kind of damage. Mass x velocity, etc.
I am not saying a slam like that wouldn't cause a fracture- it would. But not a fracture like that, and the hole as well.
This is the same reason why it could never have happened from a fall. She was only about 4 feet tall. For damage like that, she'd have had to be dropped from a great height. Besides, the damage in a fall from a great height or not would be different. A different kind of fracture.

^ ^
That.

 

[OpenMind4U]

My only problem with the doorknob theory is that JBR's body would have been the driving force in that scenario, and I don't think she weighed enough for a fracture of such magnitude to be the result of a collision with a doorknob - even if she had been hurled against it. The putter, on the other hand, vectors a great deal of force through its length and terminus, even when wielded by a small person.

Still, though some scenarios strike me as more likely than others, I'm not wedded to my own ideas about the case - mainly, I'm just sickened that we will probably never know for a fact what happened in that home.

(Edited to add: I just saw OM4U's post about the faucet. Maybe...but I think that would have broken the skin or caused an immediate weal to develop (visible externally to the medical examiner). A faucet would have produced a fracture closer in dimension and damage to one done by a flashlight, I would think.)

In all honesty, it's not the theory yet. Just an idea. But I think you're mistaken by thinking 'that JBR's body would have been the driving force in that scenario' . If someone would grap JBR by her shirt and shovel into the edge of the knob then power of the force should be calculated with the following parameters:
- power of the force from attacker;
- mass of the subject (JBR weight);
- distance between the mass and knob;
- valatility of the knob (means, how stable the door is....and resistance of the knob/door...

I'm not the math and physics major. We need someone's help to make the proper equation here.....

 

[otg]

Okay, OM4U, that's several others whose opinions I value greatly who question (as I did) the force/physics of the body being hurled against the stationary object. I know there are some who see something like this as the cause, and while it is still an intriguing possibility, I feel that unless there was something else in the mix that we haven't figured, it would not be terribly likely that this is a probability. But I won't completely discount it yet, and I'll keep it in the back of my mind.

Now... about that spare skull you mentioned... husband? :notgood:
.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Okay, OM4U, that's several others whose opinions I value greatly who question (as I did) the force/physics of the body being hurled against the stationary object. I know there are some who see something like this as the cause, and while it is still an intriguing possibility, I feel that unless there was something else in the mix that we haven't figured, it would not be terribly likely that this is a probability. But I won't completely discount it yet, and I'll keep it in the back of my mind.

Now... about that spare skull you mentioned... husband? :notgood:
.

Why not?!!! Sometimes man needs to have the hole on their head to get the steam out, isn't???...joking of course....(reference to 'locomotive', possibly was lost in translation.

Well, it was exciting hour...thank you all for the 'peer review'!...going back to the world of discovery....

 

[txsvicki]

This may sound crazy but imo there could be signs that burke tried to implement first aid. The mark on the neck coul be from a thumb in trying to use the head drag method shown in first aid books. Even the wrist binding could have been another attempt to use the hand drag first aid. That may have been when the parents finally responded. If he did then that would be more evidence it happened in the kitchen.

 

[UKGuy]

I never studied physics, txsvicki, so perhaps I'm not qualified to answer your question. However, I can tell you this: The hole in JonBenet's skull does not fit with what Dr. Spitz (originator of the Maglight theory) demonstrated here:

In fact, he's not even hitting the skull where the AR describes the depressed fracture as being.

Okay, also (it's your fault -- you got me started):

• The end of the flashlight is the lightest part of it.
• The end would not have caused a hole the shape shown on JB's skull (flat on one side).
• Had it been swung with enough force to cause that much of a fracture, it would surely have also damaged the lens and the bulb of the flashlight.

I'm telling you, Spitz is full of it. The Maglight did not cause the fracture in JonBenet's skull.
.

otg,
Ole Werner is very upset you trashed his theory, hes gonna get LW to phone you for defamation of his professional character, LOL!



.

 

[UKGuy]

In all honesty, it's not the theory yet. Just an idea. But I think you're mistaken by thinking 'that JBR's body would have been the driving force in that scenario' . If someone would grap JBR by her shirt and shovel into the edge of the knob then power of the force should be calculated with the following parameters:
- power of the force from attacker;
- mass of the subject (JBR weight);
- distance between the mass and knob;
- valatility of the knob (means, how stable the door is....and resistance of the knob/door...

I'm not the math and physics major. We need someone's help to make the proper equation here.....

OpenMind4U,
Many years ago, too many, I took physics at Uni. To get a handle on this you just use Newtonian Mechanics.

So assume JonBenet simply fell to the floor, the equation for the force hitting her head is

F = MG.

Where F is measured in Newtons, M is JonBenet's weight in Kilograms, and G is the force of Gravity, e.g a constant number.

Another way to think about it is consider experimenting with JonBenet, bad I know!

And the experiment is to repeatedly lift JonBenet higher in the air then drop her to the ground.

The higher the height the more energy applied on impact, which is really the above equation plus the potential energy stored in the height variable.

We do not need to do the physical experiments, simply apply the equations, using the first equation, e.g. fall to the floor as a baseline figure.

The more difficult, but not impossible, calculation is to then consider someone holding JonBenet by the neck and slamming her against a door knob.

Instead of Gravity doing the acceleration, its the person doing the holding, and the equation for this is:

F = MA

Where F is measured in Newtons, M is JonBenet's weight in Kilograms, and A is the metre per second per second.

So if you do this, have your calculator handy, pencil and paper, do the calculations for each scenario, then compare the numbers.

Next find a chart online that estimates the force required to sustain head injuries in a car crash. That is someones head hitting the dashboard, with the car taking the place of the person who slammed JonBenet, e.g. adding acceleration. These figures also come from dummies in test cars.

You will then have a range of Force figures, from JonBenet falling to the floor, to a car crash, then you can decide what was feasible.

In estimating the force applied I've left out Torque or Angular Motion, e.g. where JonBenet's head spins or twists as it moves through the air.


.
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[anne11]

I assumed if the flashlight was the murder weapon the impact would've been from the handle where the weight is (3 to 6 batteries depending on the model).