Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

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Good lord; it must be tough out there for a single person to think MTR was a good catch. Where have all the good guys gone? <snipped, bbm>

Indeed. But then, remember that just about all of these women met him on PoF and his profile was not exactly an accurate reflection, as we now know. It was a collection of lies, which seem designed to target women who were asking this very question. And he has an answer for them:

"I dont want somene who will say things to hurt(dont tell me you love me,then tell me you dont)no head games PLEASE!! And I want someone who is wanting forever with someone and only them/me.I always tell it like it is and I always work at trying to better myself all the time.... I am one of the good guys. I want someone to spend the rest of my life with and someone who I can make happier then they have ever been..."

note: "mychol Appears on 31 members favorites lists"

(I found his POF profile through a site that was mentioned in the trial the other day, hope this link is okay to post: (If not, I'll delete) http://web.archive.org/web/20090530...5/accused-child-killer-left-trail-online.html)

MOO
 
If their relationship was about buying and selling drugs, MF would inform his lawyer and the lawyer would discredit the witness. Has the witness been cross examined by the defence lawyer yet and, if so, did the lawyer ask her about drug dealing? If not, then the financial transfers are not related to drug dealing.

we may never know the true reasons for the deposits but we don't have to believe her reasons for them when they don't make any sense to us and to me they don't...JMO just because Dirk didn't go there doesn't mean it isn't so...JMO
 
Another victim?

I guess the theory of MR's incredible ability to victimize a numerous and wide ranging number of women supports the Crown's accusation, based on TLM's testimony, that the kidnapping was a master plan by a skillful manipulator......who apparently simultaneously was dumb as a brick.


Snipped for space

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to manipulate someone. There are plenty of tall, dark, handsome dumb guys out there that use their looks to manipulate middled aged women into parting with their money.... I guess you could say they are the equivalent of the dumb blond.
 
just want to say that you all today have made some great points and used some good examples. in regards to yesterdays witness it left me with the understanding that MR and the witness were two consenting adults and I didn't get the feeling that one was more manipulative than the other..it also didn't conclude to me that MR was a pimp...As the witness testified, they both came up with the idea that she would enter the "escort" business in order to make some fast bucks and they would share the proceeds...whether he helped arrange clients..well that I don't know about to date and I am sure those clients will not be coming forth with this info.. the fact that she was using his bank account to deposit money to him was done for a purpose..either she was trying to hide the extra income she was earning from whomever or when he did meet up with her on those two or three days a week they would spend the money together.. she spoke about a "car payment" but surely she knew what he was driving so I wonder if he maybe had leased a car for her and he would make the payments for her (maybe she had no credit)..This woman did not give off vibes that someone could pull the wool over her eyes and with five children I am sure she was not short of a man or two...along with their "escort arrangement" maybe they had another sideline in drug dealing and of course he would need cash up front in order to purchase from suppliers...I think that also was his connection to CM..she would supply the drugs and he would do the selling of them..that is why I still think that "drugs" or "a drug debt" played a big role in this murder...and drugs was an issue with most of the parties in this crime..both sides.... JMO
They decided she should be an escort. He got the money. How much more pimpness do you expect him to exude??

imo
 
Only thing i can think of is the defence has its work cut out for him. there plate is quite full
 
I was just reading the last thread, and wanted to comment on something. Some have suggested that perhaps MR was led to believe the TLM was babysitting TS and didn't know at first that she was being abducted. I personally would find that REALLY hard to believe, because I would assume that TS would not have just quietly acted like it was normal to be being driven away by strangers. One could reasonably think that TS would be asking the normal question, like, where are you taking me, or telling them that she needed to go home, etc. Besides, if he concedes that there was no back seat in the car, at that time - why would he agree to allow a child to ride back there? Or are we to believe that she was up in the front?

As always, this is just my opinion.
 
Another victim?

I guess the theory of MR's incredible ability to victimize a numerous and wide ranging number of women supports the Crown's accusation, based on TLM's testimony, that the kidnapping was a master plan by a skillful manipulator......who apparently simultaneously was dumb as a brick.

My biggest problem with the Crown's case is the beginning.

Based on TLM's testimony, we have to believe.............

Despite having a long list of female encounters, none of whom made any reference to a devious sexual side of MR, one day he woke up and decided to take a child and sexually assault her.

He decided it was a good idea to take a witness along with him.

A witness who was recently released from custody, was a drug addict, and was continually in and out of trouble with the law. Surely he could depend on her to keep a secret like this for the rest of his life.

He decided that rather than drive to Guelph and kidnap a child there, it would be a better idea to kidnap one in Woodstock and drive around with her in the backseat of the car for a couple of hours.

He pulled the battery out of his phone so he wouldn't be tracked leaving Woodstock.........frantically listens to the radio for kidnapping alerts and then decides to insert the battery back into the phone when he arrives at Guelph.......just down the highway.

He decided it would be a good idea to stop at Tim Horton for tea, pick up some drugs at a friends home with his car parked out front of her home and a kidnapped young girl inside, and stick around and "chat" for about 10 minutes.

Then he decided to continue on with the crime.

But let's go back to the actual abduction...............

TLM testified it was totally random.

Out of all the elementary schools in Woodstock, they end up at this one.

Out of all the kids in the school, she picks up VS.

Out of all the dog breeds in the world, she talks about the same breed as VS owns.

She walks VS down the street, passing a woman waiting for her own child and who knows whoever else waiting for their kids or just arriving for their kids, and is unconcerned that she is going to be stopped or approached about why she is with that child.

After all she claims she didn't know VS was TM's daughter. She claimed the abduction was random, so she didn't know who VS parents were or what they looked like.

But she did know TM. Her mother had sold drugs to TM and boyfriend JG on numerous occasions. TM knew her from 2 trips to TLM's house.

All of these "coincidences" and there is more..............

TLM testified...she didn't know why she took a little girl that day, she doesn't know why she didn't escape with VS, and she doesn't know why she murdered VS...........but she has an incredibly clear memory of everything else, apparently good enough to sketch out maps for LE.

At this point, I don't know what the defense theory will eventually be, but I don't know how it could be any more unbelievable than the story TLM spun.

I don't believe TLM..........I have never believed TLM.........and I never will.

MR's involvement in the crime is still to be determined, but I don't believe for a second that TLM was an innocent dupe or victim in this case.

****Not that you said she was..but that appears to be the Crown case.

JMO............

I don't believe any of these women, including TLM, are victims. I don't believe TLM is telling the complete truth - after all, how do you know when a drug addict is lying? Their lips are moving.

But are you saying you believe that this is a widespread conspiracy between many parties to deliberately target an innocent man by excluding evidence and ignoring a viable line of questioning?

In theory, such a conspiracy would have to involve, at a minimum, Woodstock Police, the OPP from the lowest to the highest levels, Oxford County Crown Prosecutor, perhaps the judge, Tori's family and TLM. And perhaps all the witnesses we don't hear about that would exonerate MR. And perhaps MR's family, because none of them seem to be defending him. And perhaps also the media, both left- and right-leaning (holy crap, they agree on something!), because editorials in both often seem to suggest that the evidence is very damning.

And all of those parties are going along with it because TLM wants them to? That is a fascinating theory.

My counter theory is that all the parties listed above want justice for the perpetrators and peace for the victims, and the evidence points overwhelmingly to MR.

Just my opinion.
 
There was mention of MR's possible connection to an escort, previously, in a really old thread here - starting at post #17 :

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87664"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87664[/ame]
 
BBM: It is strange.

It begs the questions, did she take herself out of commission, and, also did she have any idea about what happened to Tori? I would presume, by her selfless actions yesterday, that she did not know about Tori.

She testified that she gave him cash when he was at her home and that she had given him much more that the money that is shown in the bank transfers. Looks like he spent more time over there in the two weeks following the crime to get his money in cash. Didn't his new girlfriend JM live in the same city of London? So he was there pretty much every day or night? That's why there were less transfers IMO.

Maybe he only asked for transfers when he was in Woodstock and wanted to buy stuff for JW.

MOO
 
OK I do not know how to bring quotes over from other threads but there is something I would really like to address. Someone stated that MR's many women would lead them to believe that he was not a child rapist. However becaues he raped a little girl does not mean he is actually a pedophile. The reason I say this is rape is about power and control. MR appears to have preyed on the vulnerable, women who were/are single mothers, who needed companionship and quite possible had low self esteem. Who in society are more vulnerable then these women? The young,the old, and the disabled. I believe that he could have easily done this to someone who fell into any one of these categories. What he did was not about sex it was about ripping some girl apart emotionaly, physically and mentally. However this is all my opinion formed on knowledge I have in this field, however I am no expert but I bet if you asked one they would probably agree. So the argument that he dated many women would negate him raping a little girl is not relevant in my mind. MOO
 
I was just reading the last thread, and wanted to comment on something. Some have suggested that perhaps MR was led to believe the TLM was babysitting TS and didn't know at first that she was being abducted. I personally would find that REALLY hard to believe, because I would assume that TS would not have just quietly acted like it was normal to be being driven away by strangers. One could reasonably think that TS would be asking the normal question, like, where are you taking me, or telling them that she needed to go home, etc. Besides, if he concedes that there was no back seat in the car, at that time - why would he agree to allow a child to ride back there? Or are we to believe that she was up in the front?

As always, this is just my opinion.

Good points. TLM did say she that TS asked to go home and that she wouldn't say anything and say she went to her cousin's.

I'm sure someone will say TLM lied, that TS never asked to go home.
 
They decided she should be an escort. He got the money. How much more pimpness do you expect him to exude??

imo

This made me laugh. Pimpness :). I totally agree by the way, he totally was the definition of pimp. I do not understand why people think a pimp has to be the guy hanging out on the street making sure his broad is being treated right.

BTW OTTO thank you as well for your insight.

Another point I do not believe that the crown was allowed to ask if he was a sexual deviant due to the whole can not attack his character issues. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
But are you saying you believe that this is a widespread conspiracy between many parties to deliberately target an innocent man by excluding evidence and ignoring a viable line of questioning?

In theory, such a conspiracy would have to involve, at a minimum, Woodstock Police, the OPP from the lowest to the highest levels, Oxford County Crown Prosecutor, perhaps the judge, Tori's family and TLM. And perhaps all the witnesses we don't hear about that would exonerate MR. And perhaps MR's family, because none of them seem to be defending him. And perhaps also the media, both left- and right-leaning (holy crap, they agree on something!), because editorials in both often seem to suggest that the evidence is very damning.

And all of those parties are going along with it because TLM wants them to? That is a fascinating theory.

Just my opinion.

It is a fascinating theory......but it's yours not mine.

JMO..........
 
OK I do not know how to bring quotes over from other threads but there is something I would really like to address. Someone stated that MR's many women would lead them to believe that he was not a child rapist. However becaues he raped a little girl does not mean he is actually a pedophile. The reason I say this is rape is about power and control. MR appears to have preyed on the vulnerable, women who were/are single mothers, who needed companionship and quite possible had low self esteem. Who in society are more vulnerable then these women? The young,the old, and the disabled. I believe that he could have easily done this to someone who fell into any one of these categories. What he did was not about sex it was about ripping some girl apart emotionaly, physically and mentally. However this is all my opinion formed on knowledge I have in this field, however I am no expert but I bet if you asked one they would agree. So the argument that he dated many women would negate him raping a little girl is not relevant in my mind.

We also have no idea how much about her childhood TLM told MR. She testified that she knew nothing about him and that their conversations were all about her. He wanted to know about her.

Now if she told him all about her childhood and her own sexual assault(s) and how traumatic that had been he may have found that topic of conversation "arousing". And that might have been the trigger for him to decide he wanted to abduct and rape a child.

MOO
 
Good points. TLM did say she that TS asked to go home and that she wouldn't say anything and say she went to her cousin's.

I'm sure someone will say TLM lied, that TS never asked to go home.

TLM told VS that she wouldn't let anything happen to her, according to her own testimony.

She either lied to VS then, or she is lying about it now.

She lied to VS family and said MR killed VS.

TLM is a sociopath. She lies just because she can. She has no moral code.

If a Judge stepped forward and said MR was at his house the day of the abduction, TLM would simply change her story to include the Judge.........

That is how sociopaths operate.

JMO............
 
TLM told VS that she wouldn't let anything happen to her, according to her own testimony.

She either lied to VS then, or she is lying about it now.

She lied to VS family and said MR killed VS.

TLM is a sociopath. She lies just because she can. She has no moral code.

If a Judge stepped forward and said MR was at his house the day of the abduction, TLM would simply change her story to include the Judge.........

That is how sociopaths operate.

JMO............

Well I am not sure what TLM is diagnosed with, however I do agree that she is a monster. However, you explain away a lot of the evidence, but the law requires to acquit, it must be through "reasonable" doubt. Heavy weight on the "reasonable". Coincidence can only be used as an excuse so many times. Any good investigator will tell you that in an investigation there is no such thing as a coincidence. MOO
 
Off topic but considering there are many Ontarians on here:

Amber Alert

Issued at 7:11 PM Saturday 21 April 2012

Importance:
High

Description

Release Immediately April 21, 2012 1830 hrs. MEDIA Contact Toronto Police Service 416 808 3300 PLEASE BROADCAST THE FOLLOWING UPON RECEIPT THE TORONTO POLICE SERVICE HAS REQUESTED AN AMBER ALERT FOR AN ABDUCTED CHILD IN THE GREATER TORONTO AREA. Victim?s name Joshua LOW Date of Birth 28 April 2003 8 years of age Physical Description: Oriental Height 4 ft Weight 40 45 lbs Hair color Black Eye color Brown Clothing Last seen wearing dark hooded sweat shirt, blue and yellow shoes. Believed to be in the company of Jessica Yi Qing LOW-ZHEN Date of Birth 28 August 1966 45 years of age Physical Description Oriental Height 5ft 1 Weight Thin build Hair color Long black hair Eye color Brown Photo available of both subjects from the Toronto Police Service Details of Incident On Friday April 13th 2012 the female left the family home with her child. On Friday April 20th, 2012 Toronto Police Service received information which caused them to be concerned for his safety while in her care. Jessica LOW ZHENG is described as female Asian, 45 years old, approximately 5 ft 2, thin build, long black hair, wears glasses. Joshua LOW is described as male Asian, 8 years old, approximately 4ft, skinny build, short black hair. Anyone with information is asked to contact police at 416 808 3300 Vehicle Information They were last seen in a 2000 Toyota Corolla, 4 door brown with an Ontario licence plate BAME697. If observed call 911.

Area Description

Greater Toronto Area

Issued By:
Ontario Provincial Police
 
Now this goes back to Katerine. I think she was an escort as well, wasnt she the one that had the page dedicated to him? So 2 possible escorts?
 
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopath"]Antisocial personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

1. Callous unconcern for feelings of others: let parents stew about where their daughter was, lied to many of these women
2. irresponsibility, disregard social norms, rules and obligations: didn't work, took and sold drugs (I believe LE), drove on narcotics, sponged off mother
3. incapacity to maintain long term relationships but not problem starting them: omg let me count the ways and women. IMO
4. low tolerance to frustration and aggression- jury is still out so to speak
5. incapacity to experience guilt - he buried a child, covered crime scene and his life didn't seem to skip a beat and he let the parents stew over where their child was
6. markedly prone to blame others or offer rationalizations for his behavior which has brought him into conflict with society - see trial
7. deception, repeated lying and use of aliases or conning others for personal profit or pleasure - again see trial
8. impulsiveness-failure to plan ahead- not sure of this I am thinking he plans sometimes and is impulsive other times IMO

IMO TLM could also meet these criteria. MOO
 
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