Weekend Discussion Thread 04/27-30/2012

[Macright]

I'm not sure I understand the correlation between the talking heads and the social media consultant used by the defense team here, but I certainly agree the media can put a slant on things.

Just here at WS - we often find that we have to remind sleuths that some folks are off limits for sleuthing until there is a reason, from LE or MSM, to do so. Most investigations start with those closest to the victim and work their way out - that can be very hard on a family or other loved ones.

So... no talking heads in Canada?

Salem

nothing that would closely resemble what I see on American TV..we are rather a staid bunch up this way and political correctness is always an issue... don't get me wrong...not knocking the US cause I vacation and shop there all the time and find the people very friendly and warm..Canadians as I stated are rather cold and staid..just saying there is a stricter code up this way when it comes to reporting etc....there is only one reporter that I would consider rag mag material but I don't think I can mention the name on here but I am sure you will know who I mean...JMO

 

[robynhood]

...IMo this case has really baffled me ...I am sure we will never get some answers ...But I STILL question...HIGHLY why TLM changed her Plea to GULITY of killing Tori ...????

IMO It really breaks my heart that there was NOT more evidence to MR raping Tori...I wish there was NO DOUBTS LEFT AT ALL !...with more forensiac evidence !...I guess MR made sure to TRY to get rid of all.... IMO that is where some of this turned EXTREMELY DIRTY ...Imo I do not think they would have ever LET TORI GO alive ....IMO I feel strongly that both TLM & MR were out for their own ...BACKS ...as Tori could have identified both of them !...also serious wonder what MR mother thought about what has going on with her son....???no job and way too many expensive things and did she not realize he was addicted to Oxy ( bottles were left out )....as mentioned already above my others...I agree 100 percent...again robynhood >>>>

IMO I would love to be a fly on the wall in MR Jail ceel as I am sure MR. Destine is and has PAID many visits to MR about how they are going to deal with his defense ...OMG they did have 3 years and computers full of evidence to EXPLAIN ...?????....How can he ever think that MR will walk free...the thought makes me shake this weekend ....IMo ....OMG ...Now is it not Monday they start this cirus event????...robynhood ...Just can not get my head around the cards they will use for defense ...time shall tell ..IMO ..his colck is ticking FAST ...robynhood...your thoughts fellow SLeuthers....???

 

[otto]

nothing that would closely resemble what I see on American TV..we are rather a staid bunch up this way and political correctness is always an issue... don't get me wrong...not knocking the US cause I vacation and shop there all the time and find the people very friendly and warm..Canadians as I stated are rather cold and staid..just saying there is a stricter code up this way when it comes to reporting etc....there is only one reporter that I would consider rag mag material but I don't think I can mention the name on here but I am sure you will know who I mean...JMO

The presumption of innocence is taken very seriously in Canada. The release of investigative information about a case, or talking heads twisting facts prior to trial can taint opinions, juries and the good character of innocent suspects.

 

[Macright]

She was under oath to tell the truth? Maybe her first story morphed between the time that we first heard it and the time that she testified, but that it seems like it was a sudden flip because we only heard about the two conflicting statements with a long time gap in between.

I don't think the fact that TLM was under oath caused her to tell the truth..JMO..maybe the kerfuffle in January when she beat up another fellow prisoner had something to do with it...who knows what that person knew and maybe was going to rat on her or had ratted on her...JMO

 

[gardenia]

I think TLM would only confess to her role in the murder if it served her own purpose... so she must've thought it did! Guess we'll never know what that was about.
JMO

 

[Tahorn]

I wonder what her motivation was to change her story? I am unable to come up with any scenarios that benefitted her. JMO

It may be that her first statement was all a lie, and knowing that there was no DNA evidence to prove the sexual assault that she was the one who kidnapped VS and then admitted to killing her ... MR would get off.

Personally, I believe that if she admitted that MR did not arrange the sexual assault,
a. she would be brought up on charges and classified a dangerous offender and never let out and
b. her status in prison would put her in a very uncomfortable situation. It seems to me she is not in protective custody now …

Just guessing …

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I'm not sure, depends how many they can get I suppose?

"What is OxyContin?
OxyContin (“Oxy” or “OC” on the street) is a time-released pain medication. It was developed in 1995 for people needing around-the-clock pain relief, so they don’t have to take pills as often. OxyContin contains oxycodone, which is an opioid drug, like morphine, codeine, heroin and methadone.

Oxycodone is the same opioid that’s in Percocet, Oxycocet and Endocet.


What’s the difference between Percocet and OxyContin?
Both Percocet and OxyContin relieve pain, but while Percocet gives relief for about five hours, the effects of OxyContin last for about 12 hours.

Percocet contains five milligrams of oxycodone, which is all released when the pill is taken. Percocet also contains acetaminophen (the drug in Tylenol), which makes people sick if they take a lot of it.

OxyContin doesn’t contain acetaminophen. It is pure oxycodone in amounts much larger than in Percocet. In Canada, OxyContin pills come with 10, 20, 40 or 80 mg of oxycodone. Just one OxyContin pill can have the same amount of oxycodone as 16 Percocet pills.

With OxyContin, only part of the oxycodone is released when the pill is taken. The rest of the oxycodone has been coated so that it is released into the body slowly. This is how OxyContin relieves pain for so many hours. "

http://www.camh.net/about_addiction...tion_information/oxycontin_straight_talk.html

Sizzle, that's a lot! They've given me Percacets before and they knock me over. Can't imagine taking that many! MTR and TLM really could have had a huge, huge habit. Especially TLM since she shot it IV, but then again we don't know that MTR wasn't shooting it.

PS... I love your avatar!

 

[swedie]

His mother should have thrown him out and kept the stork - Mae West


MOO

Lol that's a good one Snoof, never heard that one before. I love it! Thanks for the laugh. <3

In my honest opinion I do not foresee MR taking the stand in his own defense. The defense knows as well as MR that the evidence against him is too overwhelming for him to excuse it away. There is no way they can spin a story to make him look like an innocent dupe in this whole case. Especially when we see the video of him driving past the school that morning. That right there goes to show he was up to no good, looking for a child who may have been late for school and planning something. And all the evidence that shows the three of them were all together in his car, Tori's blood mixed with male sperm, her body being found naked from the waist down.

MR IMO won't take the stand. He's a coward and the Crown will chew him up and spit him out and he knows it, Derstine knows it too. My prediction is court will be in Tuesday, Derstine has no witnesses, MR will not take the stand and defense will give their closing argument followed by the Crown's argument and that will be that. The jurors will begin deliberating that day coming back with a guilty verdict in less than eight hours. Of course JMHO.

 

[Tahorn]

Sizzle, that's a lot! They've given me Percacets before and they knock me over. Can't imagine taking that many! MTR and TLM really could have had a huge, huge habit. Especially TLM since she shot it IV, but then again we don't know that MTR wasn't shooting it.

PS... I love your avatar!

I believe TLM tesitfied that he only took them orally.

BA testified that before VS went missing she only saw him a couple of times a month, but after she saw him about a dozen. Seems to me he increased his drug use after. Especially after the undercover officers testified.

On Thursday, the trial heard how Rafferty, while in police custody, asked two undercover officers if they had any OxyContin, the highly addictive prescription pill.

He said if he had 80 mg pills, he took four or five daily. But if he had 40 mg ones, he took dozen or so. And if he had Percocets, also prescription pills, he took 20 to 30 every day.

 

[tmhco]

It may be that her first statement was all a lie, and knowing that there was no DNA evidence to prove the sexual assault that she was the one who kidnapped VS and then admitted to killing her ... MR would get off.

Personally, I believe that if she admitted that MR did not arrange the sexual assault,
a. she would be brought up on charges and classified a dangerous offender and never let out and
b. her status in prison would put her in a very uncomfortable situation. It seems to me she is not in protective custody now …

Just guessing …

Then why admit to the murder? I would think that would be the greater evil. I can't find a rational reason for her to do so unless it's the truth. All if it. JMO

 

[tmhco]

What I am trying to convey is that if you believe TLM implicated MR for revenge, she would never have admitted to the murder. LE could not determine who did it. Everytime I try to go down the defence's suggested theory, that is where I get stuck. JMO

 

[tmhco]

I don't think the fact that TLM was under oath caused her to tell the truth..JMO..maybe the kerfuffle in January when she beat up another fellow prisoner had something to do with it...who knows what that person knew and maybe was going to rat on her or had ratted on her...JMO

She changed her story before the assault, I believe. JMO

 

[gardenia]

so she first claimed MR murdered VS ... and later admitted that it was her.

so part 1 was a lie & part 2 is the truth, right?

obviously something came to light that might expose the truth, so she 'fessed up. but what?!

jmo

 

[swedie]

actually I read most about TLM and her life BEFORE her trial..after she was picked up as a suspect...just how evil and demented she was I learned at this trial...so I am still wondering why we have not heard a great deal about MR's life and upbringing...as I said previously...it all seems to be rather hush hush...JMO

Yes I found that rather strange also how TLM hid nothing about her past, put it all on facebook and boasted to people about her character in and out of detention and to her friends. TLM was more the character who was more talk then action. "If" she was the one who welded that hammer, it is because she was put up to it by MR or she did suffer from severe flashbacks of herself being sexually abused as a child and could not stand to think of what Tori would endure for the rest of her life being a victim to sexual assault. I will go for the first though that MR put her up to it. As TLM stated during her testimony MR saying, "we can't keep her and we can't take her back" and "you're just as far into it as I am", speaks volumes. I just pray Tori did not understand or was privy to their sick discussions, or understood what MR was meaning while she was huddled and terrified on the floor of his car.

Then there's MR so secretive and sly. As the saying goes, those are the ones you have to look out for; wolf in sheep's clothing. I believe MR was the more evil of the two. I see him as being the sexual deviant and finding the perfect victim/partner in TLM to help him carry out his hidden sexual demons. With all the women he had traipsing in and out of his life and using them for sex, money, a place to stay, taking advantage of CS for financial gain, even using his own mother for personal and financial gains shows me he had no respect for woman whatsoever. It was all a false front to fill his own warped needs. He sure is one sick puppy in MOO.

 

[antiquegirl]

MR was still living with his mom at the age of 28 ... he had no career direction, no income, no life path. She obviously enabled him through his life if she was still providing for her unemployed 28 year old son. It was her responsibilty to ask how he was able to make car payments and where his money came from since she knew he wasn't working. She must have turned a blind eye many times.

(RSBM)

I agree that there had to have been a lot of enabling going on, but wanted to correct a couple of things. MTR was technically not "still" living with his mom; he was living with her again. He had been on his own either off and on for years prior, or continuously, for many years before moving back in with her. Although our knowledge of several of those years are sketchy, we do know he lived in Toronto in his early twenties, with DM in Guelph, and again with a different girl in Oakville. He moved back in with his mother about a year and a bit before the crime.

We haven't had confirmation of the other jobs he claimed to have, but he did work for "Outdoor Services", the landscaping company, off and on from 2003 to 2006.

As for income, I almost laughed reading that. According to CS's testimony, he had more than $16,000 of it coming from her in less than six months. Regardless of how you classify it, I guess you still have to consider it income. And then there was the alleged drug dealing, although there has not really been testimony to verify that.

Certainly, not an admirable lifestyle for sure and one that I would have a lot of questions about if I were his mother. But, more than likely, he lied to her like he lied to everyone else. It seems he was pretty good at it.

This entire case has so many tragic elements with the most obvious being little Tori's fate, of course. But there are many victims here and, as a mother myself, I can't help but think that MTR's mom once carried him for nine months, fed him, changed his diapers, and rocked him in her arms as a baby. No matter what the jury decides, these are memories that will always be with her. Even on the unlikely chance that he is acquitted of all charges, the revelations about her son that have surfaced over the past few weeks should fill her with many questions, guilt, regret, and great sorrow. I pity her.

JMO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

lots of people live with their parents these days...not unusual at all..we don't know if he was contributing anything or not.. and as per the bank records he certainly was earning $$$..well he had access to $$$ as per the escort "lady"...we know nothing about his relationship with his Mother or his family only what people want to think it was..no actual facts...yes we did hear a snippet from the ex of his Mother but nothing concrete...so until we hear more I would never think to make statements on his relationship with his Mother because I will not surmise anything until I know for certain..the only think I know for a fact now is that he was using drugs and possibly dealing in them...and in a business deal with an "escort"... I think his relationship with CM & TLM MAY have been because of drugs... JMO remember we are "armchair" detectives (or so I have been told many times ha.) JMO

We don't know for certain, but if at the very least he was "just" doing drugs and "had a business deal with an 'escort' he would be engaging in illegal activities, because didn't escorting just become legal up there?

I would never want to live with someone that was engaged in illegal activity and especially illegal activity where they come into contact with other criminals and people that are on drugs. That is a dangerous combination. Maybe I'm on here too much, but what if he pissed off the wrong person? People are always wondering if Tara had a drug debt which resulted in what happened to Tori, and while I don't think that is the case here, I really believe that people put their loved ones in jeapordy when they do stuff like that.

Maybe his mom was in deep denial, maybe she was just so overwhelmed with everything she just didn't know what to do, but she didn't deserve that.

moo

 

[Wondergirl]

Considering I don't for a second believe the "escort" friend of MR was simply handing over all her money to MR, because he was some kind of Svengali, I am thinking there is more to the debt theory than we presently know.

MR was picking up drugs from various sources , and people were depositing money into his account...............to me that looks like drug trafficking. It doesn't mean MR was the man behind it all though. He might have just been the errand boy and go between.

If there is more the defense should be able to reveal it all.

After all, they have MR sitting right there with all the information.

JMO.............

I just LOVE how Derstine didn't touch the Escort testimony with a 10 foot pole.

He just wasn't gonna go there.

Hmmmmm.....wonder why??

P.S. You aren't suggesting that MTR wasn't a drug dealer, are you?!

JMO

 

[brighidin]

(RSBM)


This entire case has so many tragic elements with the most obvious being little Tori's fate, of course. But there are many victims here and, as a mother myself, I can't help but think that MTR's mom once carried him for nine months, fed him, changed his diapers, and rocked him in her arms as a baby. No matter what the jury decides, these are memories that will always be with her. Even on the unlikely chance that he is acquitted of all charges, the revelations about her son that have surfaced over the past few weeks should fill her with many questions, guilt, regret, and great sorrow. I pity her.

JMO

As a mother, I feel so sad for Tara. Despite her faults, she loved Tori so much. She carried her for 9 months, changed her, rocked her, comforted her, played with her. Then MR and TLM stole all that from her. TM should be having to deal with a precious, whirlwind of a pre-teen daughter right now. Instead, she is attending the trial of her darling daughter's alleged murder. That is who I feel sorry for.

 

[swedie]

I wonder what her motivation was to change her story? I am unable to come up with any scenarios that benefitted her. JMO

IMHO I feel TLM told the truth and she wanted the jurors to see it as just that. That they could take her testimony as the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. She was influenced by MR the more evil of the the two to carry out what happened to Tori and she feels that if she is going to pay with a 25 year sentence, so is he. As she stated or similar, "I don't want MR to do this to any other children". We know her story throughout this whole case has remained consistent other than who was the one to stomp and kick Tori and who struck her with the hammer. So why would she now admit to it as it serves no purpose to help her? Especially if she was privy to the fact that the autopsy results could not prove who did all the damage to Tori. If anything it is more damaging for her if she ever had the hope of using the faint hope clause. AND once again I fail to see where TLM is a chronic liar other then what I pointed out above. Damn she even admitted to nuking her dog. I for one believe her testimony to be the whole truth and IMHO I bet the jurors see it as such also. MOO

 

[Wondergirl]

What I am trying to convey is that if you believe TLM implicated MR for revenge, she would never have admitted to the murder. LE could not determine who did it. Everytime I try to go down the defence's suggested theory, that is where I get stuck. JMO

Bingo!