Weekend Discussion Thread 04/27-30/2012

[Flossie JMO]

Are you asking for proof that names MR provided for his family members and the testimony given in court is true?

I apologize, am not sure what you are asking me?

 

[roseofsharon]

Why would TLM remove TS's undergarments to stage a sexual assault/rape if they thought they were never going to be caught. Why would she do that, just in case they got caught. I don't think so.

MOO

 

[kmclaren]

From my post: "I've been re-reading the transcripts, and MR has a different last name than his mother and brother. We know that MR lived with his aunt and uncle during middle school. I get the impression that he was not only troubled, but possibly neglected. I wonder if his mom put up with him when he moved in with her in 2008 because she felt some guilt over his unstable upbringing. "

Here are the transcripts: http://www.am980.ca/Other/Rafferty Transcript.pdf. You can see for yourself that all three have different last names.

"A previous witness testified she went to middle school with Rafferty in Drayton — about 35 kilometres south of Mount Forest — where he lived with an aunt and uncle, but he moved to the Toronto area for high school."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/ca...out-remarks-he-made-after-tori-147282055.html

"Riddell recently moved out of the home because he felt Rafferty was taking advantage of his mother's generosity."

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20090521/stafford_suspects_090521/#ixzz1tScQJ9v7

Not sure about others, but for the PDF version of the interview transcript I can't do a word search. Here's a link to a text version, I had bookmarked. I just re-read some of it again and wow full of so many attempted CYA lies... (JMO)

http://www.newstalk1010.com/blog/raffertyevidence/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10363499

 

[Flossie JMO]

Why would TLM remove TS's undergarments to stage a sexual assault/rape if they thought they were never going to be caught. Why would she do that, just in case they got caught. I don't think so.

MOO

JMO she may have assaulted her on her own. JMO We don't know. God bless Tori

 

[snoofer]

I am open to what the defense has to say as well. However, there is something "rotten in Denmark" with those two. LE has placed them both at the scene of a brutal kidnapping, murder and rape. TS blood was found mixed with semen. Her blood should not ever be mix with semen. Coincidence??? How many coinkydinks should be afford MTR.

a. TS blood mixed with semen
b. MTR just happened to be driving by school while TLM led TS away to his awaiting car
c. TLM and his own lawyer say he was present and cleaned up the crime scene
d. he lied to LE in audio
e. he changed his clothes
f. he got rid of evidence
g. he said not friends with TLM but poof; there is the video at Genest. This lie was to LE!!! He said he doesn't really know her very well.
h. He sells drugs, he takes drugs
i. he lies like a rug and pimps out women to escort
j. his morals are corrupt ie lies, drugs, tax evasion, selling drugs, plays games with the lives of women,immature, sponges off his mother, interferes with his mother's relationships, is a drifter/bum. How many allowances have to be made for his behaviors before he will be held accountable.

He took a child without permission from the parents into his car, a 28 year old man and left the city to a deserted rural spot with her. The law is clear, when you take a child without permission it is called kidnapping. And any death that occurs while that kidnapping occurs you will be charged with murder one. Do I think he raped her. Yep. It is not TS fault that her body decomposed before LE could gain more evidence to proove it. But one spot was found, missed by those two and it was mixed with semen. So NOW we are to believe oh well his car is a sex mobile this explains it....how one small dot of TS blood found its way to one small dot of semen. I think not. Common sense tells us that he raped her. Why else does a 28 year old man grab a kid off the street? Defense will try and entertain us with other scenarios but they are that scenarios unless they put forth irrevocable proof. A theory could be aliens did it, or a gang, or............but who was there...those two...what was the condition of TS body, unclothed, horribly disfigured...dead. Who transported this child in their car. Should we believe it was all TLM's idea and doing.....if only she had her license she would have driven herself??? I do think TLM is devious and you do wonder. But what does the evidence tell us. Not let's think of other scenarios that COULD happen. What DID happen and what does the evidence tell us.

Experts in LE, pschyology, psychiatry and government have studied the patterns of these rapist child killers for years. What a coincidence that the same guy who took her into his car, whose TS blood is in his car, who destroyed evidence, who lied to LE.... Takes alot of nuts to lie to LE during a murder investigation. And read the profile of someone who would do this heinous crime. Coincidence? LE had his number and the evidence nailed him. JMO http://itsamysterytome.wordpress.co...of-child-killers-and-the-kids-they-prey-on-a/

Profile of who is killing our children above.

PS. lmao. What did Katey Perry name her cat? Kitty Purry!

All JMO

 

[BorgQueen]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be catty, this is a serious question... do we need photographic evidence to prove that Tori was sexually assaulted? Is that the only way to prove the guilt of the accused, and without it, he MUST be innocent?

FACT: Tori was found without clothes from the waist down
FACT: Tori's blood was found, in MR's car, mixed with (unidentified) sperm cells. Pretty sure TLM does not produce this substance?


In my opinion, based on these two facts alone (nevermind TLM's testimony, which is also considered evidence whether we like it or believe it or not... and this testimony has been backed up by evidence presented, but I am choosing to ignore it completely anyway), sexual assault did occur. Any other explanation is just too convoluted and illogical, in my opinion, to be able to accept. Usually, the simplest explanation is the correct one. I can not force myself to believe, no matter how many 'possibilities' are presented to me, that MR was just an innocent dupe and is being framed. I don't need photographic evidence as proof, as the other evidence presented is proof enough. Amazing that it even existed, given the time the accused had to go back and cover his tracks... including getting rid of his back seat.


JMO...

 

[antiquegirl]

There were no police reports filed regarding deviant sexual behavior prior to the arrest. The crown cannot present evidence that people suspected MR was a pedophile before the arrest. Evidence just doesn't work that way. Evidence has to be factual and supported by corroborating evidence. Witnesses can only testify to what they know to be true, not to what they silently suspected or imagined at some point in time.

The facts are that we have a 28 year old man, an 8 year old half undressed child and an 18 year old woman. Isn't it a bit of a stretch (perhaps to the point of making excuses) to suggest that the 28 year old man did nothing while the 18 year old woman undressed the child to frame the duped 28 year old man?

(RSBM)

I am not a lawyer, so I can't say anything for certain about this. But it seems to me that we have heard a lot of "evidence" that is not supported by anything. TLM's testimony, for instance, is chock full of claims about what MTR said to her (i.e. that he wanted to kidnap single mothers, that it was his idea to abduct a child, that he said "You'd do anything for a little lovin', eh?", etc., etc.) that has been presented as evidence, but never corroborated and never can be. All of these statements are merely hearsay by a convicted accomplice with questionable credibility.

CS's testimony that it was a mutual decision between her and MTR for her to become an escort was also in the testimony and considered evidence. Yet, where is the corroboration? I'm sure if we go back through every trial day, we can find many more examples of "evidence" that can not be proven.

So, how is all this different from a former girlfriend testifying that MTR asked to spend time alone with her child? Or that a child complained MTR tried to touch her inappropriately? If a girlfriend had suspicions, they would have to be based on something concrete. I'm saying that if no such testimony was presented, it means that these things did not happen ... or the Crown would have pounced on them.

JMO

 

[Tahorn]

Why would TLM remove TS's undergarments to stage a sexual assault/rape if they thought they were never going to be caught. Why would she do that, just in case they got caught. I don't think so.

MOO

It could be because that is what everyone would presumed happen when they found her or VS had an accident in her tights.

 

[Ardy]

The evidence is that VS was found with no clothing from the waist down.

There is no evidence to show if the clothing was removed prior to.......or after TLM's assault on VS.

TLM's testimony was that a garbage bag was put over VS head, and therefore there was no blood spatter.

Forensics told us that VS suffered horrific facial injuries and was hit at least 3 times with the claw (sharp) end of the hammer and numerous times with the heavy end.

Forensics told us there was a drop of VS blood beside the rear door, and it was mixed with sperm from an unknown donor. Forensics also told us that MR's sperm was found mixed with TLM's DNA all over the back seat in that same location.

There is no evidence to show if VS pants were removed prior to........or after the assault by TLM.

I find it hard to believe her story there was no blood spatter.

VS pants could very well have been removed after the assault by TLM and used to clean up the blood which would have been on the side of the car.

I found it interesting that the "most damning" evidence against TLM, and the evidence which would be the most defining in this trial...........was never found., and the car wash were TLM said it was deposited was never found.

In my opinion, LE would have searched every single car wash/convenience store in the area............and none was ever found.

At what point did LE give up.......or when did they realize that TLM wasn't telling them the truth and the car wash didn't exist?

Although TLM accompanied LE for several days during the search, she actually didn't help them find anything and they eventually sent her back to prison.

TLM had time and the knowledge of some discovery from the Crown, as she fashioned her story..........but 3 years later she didn't know the rest of it, and that is what made her nervous and decide to confess to the crime.......rather than being found to be a liar while she was sitting on the witness stand.

Unfortunately, TLM's Agreed Statement of Facts from her sentencing is sealed until after this trial is concluded.

We may get a better idea of how her testimony has changed over the course of time.

JMO....................

 

[Salem]

No offense Salem. Yes Tori had no clothing from waist down. does not prove MR raped her. Or anyone raped Tori. I know that's a hot topic, there is NO proof she was raped or that MR did it. Sorry if that upsets people. It is what it is.

Tori's blood mixed with semen was not proven to be MTR's. IIRC they could not prove sperm, or that and sperm from MTR was involved jmo?

jmo let me go back and post again

You don't need to repost unless you want to. I agree that there was not enough sperm to identify the donater (if you will) of the sperm. But the fact remains that Tori's blood was mixed with sperm cells in MR's car. I also understand that some think that MR's sperm was pre-existing. I don't believe that. Yes, there were pre-existing sperm spots in the car - but, to me, the location of the mixed TS spot is very consistent with some one that was getting out of the car - I hate to be explicit because it makes me emotional, but I can clearly see in my mind's eye how that spot got there and I don't think it was a "coincidence." I'm not buying that. However, I understand why others might believe that.

Salem

 

[Flossie JMO]

Why would TLM remove TS's undergarments to stage a sexual assault/rape if they thought they were never going to be caught. Why would she do that, just in case they got caught. I don't think so.

MOO

jmo may not be the case jmo

 

[Ardy]

One thing that stuck out for me from the Genest videos, was that TLM still tries to maintain control over her surroundings.

She came into the room, with a bit of swagger in her step, initiated most of the physical contact with MR, and at the end of the video.............when the support worker (or whatever they call them at Genest), gestured for TLM to head back to the room............TLM ignored her and wandered back to the window and had a chat with the worker.

There was proof of further manipulation of experienced guards in prison, as TLM succeeded in using the system to allow her to be alone with an inmate she had a grievance with............so she could beat her.

I don't understand the concept that MR was able to control TLM, and succeeding where years of probation officers, counselors, school officials, custody officials, social workers, and whatever parental control she had experienced over her inglorious life..............had failed so miserably.

If MR did indeed control TLM.........he succeeded where so many others had failed.

JMO............

 

[snoofer]

(RSBM)

I am not a lawyer, so I can't say anything for certain about this. But it seems to me that we have heard a lot of "evidence" that is not supported by anything. TLM's testimony, for instance, is chock full of claims about what MTR said to her (i.e. that he wanted to kidnap single mothers, that it was his idea to abduct a child, that he said "You'd do anything for a little lovin', eh?", etc., etc.) that has been presented as evidence, but never corroborated and never can be. All of these statements are merely hearsay by a convicted accomplice with questionable credibility.

CS's testimony that it was a mutual decision between her and MTR for her to become an escort was also in the testimony and considered evidence. Yet, where is the corroboration? I'm sure if we go back through every trial day, we can find many more examples of "evidence" that can not be proven.

So, how is all this different from a former girlfriend testifying that MTR asked to spend time alone with her child? Or that a child complained MTR tried to touch her inappropriately? If a girlfriend had suspicions, they would have to be based on something concrete. I'm saying that if no such testimony was presented, it means that these things did not happen ... or the Crown would have pounced on them.

JMO

he had zero permission to have that child in his car or take her out of the city or to a remote field after school. He is responsible for the condition of that child.JMO I cannot see any way around that legal fact. ;O) "You break it; you bought it" comes to mind. He took her without asking, broke her and now he pays. MOO

 

[maxfactor]

One thing that stuck out for me from the Genest videos, was that TLM still tries to maintain control over her surroundings.

She came into the room, with a bit of swagger in her step, initiated most of the physical contact with MR, and at the end of the video.............when the support worker (or whatever they call them at Genest), gestured for TLM to head back to the room............TLM ignored her and wandered back to the window and had a chat with the worker.

There was proof of further manipulation of experienced guards in prison, as TLM succeeded in using the system to allow her to be alone with an inmate she had a grievance with............so she could beat her.

I don't understand the concept that MR was able to control TLM, and succeeding where years of probation officers, counselors, school officials, custody officials, social workers, and whatever parental control she had experienced over her inglorious life..............had failed so miserably.

If MR did indeed control TLM.........he succeeded where so many others had failed.

JMO............

yup, cause she'd do anything for a little bit of love..

 

[robynhood]

The Crown has presented a lot of evidence which is FACT. Tori was, indeed, found without her clothing from the waist down - that is a FACT. Tori's blood was mixed with semen (FACT) in MR's car (FACT). Tori was beaten and hidden (FACT). MR lied to LE about what he knew (FACT) and he lied about how well he knew TLM (FACT). MR continued to see TLM (FACT) and even continued to hug her and hold hands with her (FACTS).

There is audio of MR lying to LE. Those are facts. So we do know some facts - it is the inferences we make from those facts that differs - but not the facts themselves.

If you interpret these facts to mean there are no facts, that's fine. But these are facts and everybody is entitled to interpret them however they wish.

I could NOT agree more fully! .............I MUST BRING UP THE TOTALITY and I am not SAying it Just releated to this TRIAL>>>>I FEEL STRONGLY as a teacher in Ontario and a PARENT >>>>IMO strong opinion with knowledge PROFESSIoNALLY>>>>>Every spring at least ONCE a year for My 20 Years of teaching I am required to sit my young class down and Hand out ....WARNING letters for the school community That there has been a CAR STALKING the small town I teach in....Our school board ...LARGEST IN ONTARIO sends out warnings when there is a supicious car lurking in the area .....the children are told this letter is URGENT and should be given to their parents and we warn the kids not to talk to strangers or go near unknown cars!!!!! ....most parents often now.... have internet news weekly >>>>But we still hand out letters .... and the Police are notified ....I am posting this for a reason ....Rodney strafford wishes are a change in Ontario law for all our children ...I hope all has considered this....more info online ...I better not say more as websleuthers may not like where I am leading this too....robynhood!

 

[Ardy]

he had zero permission to have that child in his car or take her out of the city or to a remote field after school. He is responsible for the condition of that child.JMO I cannot see any way around that legal fact. ;O) "You break it; you bought it" comes to mind. He took her without asking, broke her and now he pays. MOO

MR didn't have permission to be with VS, but he may have thought TLM did.

If it was not his intent to kidnap VS, or sexually assault her..........there can be no finding of first degree murder, because TLM has confessed to the murder.

Therefore what MR's intentions were relating to the abduction are the most important part of the case.

If the defense can show evidence that TLM abducted VS for her own reasons, that would provide support for a lack of intent by MR.

JMO...............

 

[gardenia]

It is quite conceivable that both MR and VS thought that TLM was babysitting.

 

[roseofsharon]

Sorry if this has been posted already, but no one can describe better than CB. She is brilliant!!! MOO

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...tic-rafferty-jail-visit-after-stafford-death/

 

[snoofer]

People who don't have cars or a license ask for a drive to the grocery store, maybe to the laundry mat. Do they ask for a drive to commit a secret murder. A bit far fetched. Mmmm, will committ murder today (TLM); if I can get a lift? JMO Pure silliness. Apparently then she should have just called a cab to pick her and TS and take her to the murder spot; since TS was apparently cooperating so well with the babysitting story. MOO

 

[robynhood]

...hmm interesting so when TLM pushed Tori into the car...MR should not have a red alert signal that something is not right here....? ....IMo...another problem who takes a child out of town for a 2 hour JOY RIDE????...and stops at Home depot ????....AS a parent I usually verify with a PArent when I am taking a child who is 8 years old away from a school....as a teacher any person removing a child from school prperty needs a Parent's permission in ALL SCHOOL BOARD and they must sign a child out at the office ....I have done it as a PArent ...if there is no Note ..the school calls home...especailly a PRIMARY CHILD !!!( GRADE K- 3 ) and I have done this when my kids were even in grade 8 ....Ont law ! ...robynhood