Weekend Discussion Thread 3/24-26/2012

[Delaware]

This is a radio interview clip taken from the website for CFRB1010am regarding this case and where the remains were found. I thought the members here might find it to be of interest and I did not see the link posted here already but if someone beat me to it then I pre-appologize.
http://www.newstalk1010.com/shows/jerryagar/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10362807

 

[matou]

Remembering Victoria: The public needs to know what happened to this innocent child
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/23/remembering-victoria

“Don’t let him do it to me again.”

According to testimony, those were among the last words uttered by the sweet, young girl who was brutally and senselessly raped and murdered in 2009.

 

[flipflop]

In listening to the testimony, I understood that McClintic was saying that Rafferty was in the car sexually assaulting the child, the child was screaming alot, McClintic flash backed to her own childhood sexual abuse, and she then hit the child in the head with the hammer three times. Jealousy? I have no doubt that Rafferty was sitting back, after assaulting the child, doing nothing while McClintic (who thought she was Rafferty's girlfriend) murdered the child. I also have no problem believing that he fatally injured her before she was hit in the had with a hammer. This was a vicious attack on a child by both parties.

Rafferty did not have the same disadvantages in life as McClintic. There's no excuse for him to be involved with a child abduction, sexual assault and murder. He simply wanted to be there and do that and he elicited McClintic, a vulnerable woman with no values, to assist him.

The dynamics of this case are unbelievably horrible. Two depraved 20 something year olds that are more interested in self gratification than anything else lured a child into their clutches, raped and murdered her.

Rafferty was probably grooming children before he engage McClintic in his sick fantasies. After murdering Tori, he complained to her that the girls she brought to him weren't young enough ... he was not going to stop if he wasn't stopped by McClintic.

I just hope her mom can survive.

So, are you saying that TLM had an excuse to do these things to VS? Im sorry, there is NO excuse in the world to commit these crimes..NONE, NADDA, ZIP!!!!!!

Did TLM have a horrible past, terrible upbringing....Yes she did. So did alot of other children that were in the system, I know a few that have made a great success out of their life (college grads with a family now) and they have a nightmare past, just like TLM, to tell as well. Her past cannot be used as an excuse for what she has done or what she has become. She had help given to her (behaviour counselling, psych appts etc) but if you are not willing to try to change or have the will to change, then you won't. Others chose to accept the help and have become upstanding citizens.

MR did not have a past like TLM, neither did RW and look where he is today! Your past can not be used as an excuse for these crimes.

 

[myzzy]

Except IMO, think about this...MTR is on the audio tape saying he continued to date Amanda for one and half weeks AFTER "the girl went missing" ...remember Amanda's young daughter was BEST FRIENDS with Tori and Amanda was in very close contact with TM. On the audio tape MTR states that Amanda broke it off with him 1.5 weeks after Tori was missing because she had lots of problems..then started dissing TM..then states...you know its just all kinds of drama so you just cut it out....talking about him and Amanda splitting up. Now remember....Derstine suggests MTR WAS THERE cleaning up the murder scene (and we know what TLM said he was doing)...but he witnessed this dead child....and he is TELLING the police that he continued to go out with Amanda and hear all the DRAMA associated with her daughter's best friends disappearance and the family....until AMANDA stopped seeing him. Wow he sure had a front seat row to all the drama Tori's family was going through AFTER the murder that he was present at...:banghead: ya right and I have a nice icey spot in Florida perfect for your pet polar bear!

Anything is possible, I personally would be a basketcase but that does not mean that someone else would be..

I can see MR in that interview trying to save his hide, by leaving out things, denying stuff and such. He was there ( Not in question ) and somehow ( as we have only heard "speculation" as to why he was there) gets twisted up in something so traggic, that he reacted like most of us wouldnt by helping with the covering up of Tori's death. But faced with that moment, most dont know how they would react, they can only specualte.

One statement TLM stated that is sticking with me is "He said, 'You're in it just as far as I am," ... Now flip it and imagine her saying it to him after he saw what she had done, when he believed whatever TLM told him to get them to where they were ( yet to know what will be testified )....

for a young troubled person to say this and another to hear it, i could completly believe they would panic further and could possibly help try and hide the disposal / murder of Tori. I could see it happening

I have a close family member that is similiar to TLM, leading a troubled risky lifestyle, low self esteme issues, drugs, sex, mental issues, ect all rolled up in one. Have seen how they twist things that have happend just a little bit, trying to either make themselves look bigger, better, harder, meaner, softer, whatever fits at that moment... who has manipulated friends and family members over and over in their deluisions of how they percieve things and never thinks that they did anything wrong.

 

[swedie]

My personal opinion on the whole safe house thing. It was never disgusted, never happened. Just Derstine's spun story of trying to get his client out of the disgusting, huge, mess MR's got himself into because he wanted to sexually assault a little girl. I do not believe the jury is going to buy any of Derstine's/MR's story. I give them more credit than that. They will see right through the defense's facade. Derstine has just got to go with it, what else can he do? He took on this case and if he knows the evidence will prove MR's guilty, what more can we expect from him? Derstine is just rolling with the punches IMO. You cannot deny the evidence. Try to yes, succeed I doubt it. JMO.

Tori was abducted by TLM for MR for SEXUAL PURPOSES ("You know I'm gonna f___ her right?") Yes I believe he said that. :moo: Once TLM and MR had her and MR was done sexually assaulting Tori, there was no turning back. They could not take the chance of returning her because his DNA was all over her, Tori may have been able to recognize her abductors, she was more than likely injured horrifically from the sexual attacks, therefore they proceeded with their next plan; murder. MR made it clear according to TLM "we can't keep her and we can't take her back". IMHO, BOTH GUILTY. They acted together, both partook in their evil deeds. End of story and a very devastating one at that. Hope they both rot in he!! the disgusting evilness that they are. :moo:

BTW, as I said before in case it was missed, PH and RW didn't have a criminal record either before their arrests. HTH.

Oops, underlined should have read "discussed" not disgusted.

 

[matou]

The interview and the car left the detectives wanting more. The next day, they came back to take a picture of Rafferty's Honda to compare with the car in the security video, but it wasn't in the driveway.
They even enlisted the various police surveillance teams that were all over Woodstock that long spring, but no one saw the car throughout that long weekend.


http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news...rbing+admissions+McClintic/6353699/story.html

 

[ChaChaCha]

I was wondering the same thing, but I have to go in a bit. I'd think they would be the same for all trials with the same charges as MTR's.

Here is the link to the Canada Criminal Law precedent for instructions to a jury from Canadian Judicial Council

Model Jury Instructions in Criminal Matters


http://www.courts.ns.ca/general/resource_docs/jury_instr_model_april04.pdf

It explains some of the finer points of law as well that the judge may give a jury ... we have already heard some of these points given by the judge with respect to TLM's reliability and what does and does not constitute evidence.

Interesting read

 

[~n/t~]

good morning everyone
Just wanted to stop in and catch up before it starts again.

ETA - In my opinion, at this point MR has more then enough resonable doubt to be found not guilty from the proceedings thus far.

Physcial Evidence and DNA is going to be the case, as i could see the defences senerio and believe it.

What is the defence's scenario?

 

[swedie]

I finally got up the nerve to listen to more of that interview with the OPP and MR today. Did anyone else find something odd about his voice? <modsnip>:

Aaah silly ipod.
Swedie you took the thoughts right out of my head, as I listened to the interview I thought exactly the same thing. I believe it was Wendell who saidher and her husband thought e might have been gay. Alsoone of his friends from when he lived in TO thought the same thing, I remember them and Wendell talking about it in a few posts.
<modsnip>.

JMO

Thank you Jezbel. Well I am glad it isn't just me to pick up on that. Glad to know I'm not starting to hear voices that are not there. :floorlaugh:

I am not necessarily saying MR is gay or bisexual, he maybe, maybe not, <modsnip> then what I expected. There are so many unanswered questions about MR's past and as of late there has been a huge concern in the media and the public about children being bullied about being gay, sounding gay or for other reasons. Some children or teens bullied to the point in which they commit suicide. Some react outward while others react inward. Could MR have acted outward? Reason for sexually assaulting an innocent child?

The information we have thus far about MR, having numerous girlfriends struck me odd in connection to his voice. I myself don't think I would be attracted to someone who sounds <modsnip>, that's JMHO. , it is just not appealing to me. Could this be the reason he had many failed relationships? Did these relationships really exist? Was he bullied by others? Did he feel like a victim for the bullying? Could this be the reason for doing what he is accused of doing? It would be interesting to find out more about his background as a child and growing up. We know he did not go far in high school and I wonder why? Was he not smart enough, and/or did he get teased in school? We certainly have been privy to TLM's background, from birth right on through and have dissected why she is like she is. It would be interesting to find out what made MR do what he is being accused of doing. JMHO.

 

[Flossie JMO]

The media has the wrong pic. This rock pile pic was in the media May 29th when searches were in the Fergus area.
It was not just TLM who had a hard time relocating the rock pile, the media did too!

thanks for posting that, I looked at the pic and said that's not the location when I saw the post

 

[OhSoCurious]

And if MR's voice was that of a gruff biker, people would use that against him too, after listening to the audio. People will decipher what they want. JMO

 

[JayFriend]

<snip> ... according to the suggestion Derstine put forth, they pulled in to that field to take Tori to a safe house, TLM told MR to walk away so she could talk to Tori. ...

Derstine seemed to have been putting forth all these suggestions while cross-examining TLM. But is he going to put TR on the stand to confirm these suggestions? If not, then they mean nothing and the Judge should have told him to keep these theories for his closing arguments.

 

[Flossie JMO]

Derstine seemed to have been putting forth all these suggestions while cross-examining TLM. But is he going to put TR on the stand to confirm these suggestions? If not, then they mean nothing and the Judge should have told him to keep these theories for his closing arguments.

bbm, that remains to be seen

 

[antiquegirl]

What is the defence's scenario?

The defence's scenario has been posted here dozens of times via Tweets, links to, and quotes from, media articles, and within members' posts. JMO

 

[Oldsoul2]

As I recall, the local LE didn't issue an Amber Alert, citing their belief that VS would be found or returned.

TLM stated that MTR was listening intently to the radio for such an alert.

If as TLM stated MTR was so concerned about an alert, does it make sense that he was driving all over the place, visiting Tim Horton stores, gas stations, Home Depot, and the person in Guelph?

It would make total sense when you're smack right in the middle of committing the crime and want to know if they're on your tail.

 

[Jezbel]

And if MR's voice was that of a gruff biker, people would use that against him too, after listening to the audio. People will decipher what they want. JMO

The difference is his friends thought that he might be and stated this right here on WS in previous threads.

Jmo

 

[Oldsoul2]

We certainly have been privy to TLM's background, from birth right on through and have dissected why she is like she is. It would be interesting to find out what made MR do what he is being accused of doing. JMHO.

IMO His mother just saying hi and walking by when he was questioned followed by her lack of presence at his trial and toppled by her 28 year old, drug addict son moving in and out of her house may speak volumes, not judging though it could simply be a case of her horror against the crime he is being accused of but it's strange.

 

[swedie]

And if MR's voice was that of a gruff biker, people would use that against him too, after listening to the audio. People will decipher what they want. JMO

Who is using that against him? His friends? :what: If you're assuming I am, that's incorrect. I am simply stating I surprised by the sound of MR's voice. By his appearance I expected just a regular sounding male voice. I don't think a gruff voice would suit his either, but I would not hold it against him, kwim? JMHO

 

[Ardy]

Bear in mind though, that if the defense theory is difficult to believe........ the theory that MTR masterminded it all and used TLM in the kidnapping and crime also has at credibilty issues.

One of those issues is that MTR would have had to trust TLM not to reveal any of the information about what happened for the rest of their lives.

Does TLM sound like someone he would trust with THAT kind of information, especially if he DID know about her criminal past?

I don't know why it would be surprising to people that MTR would lie in his interview with police. By that point in time...........he was involved up to his eyeballs, regardless of what really happened.

If he was going to tell his side of events, the best time was immediately after it happened..........not after the police were closing in on him.

I hear a different tone on the interview than others have suggested.

I hear nervous and tentative responses. I hear nervous laughter. I hear someone pretending not to know the answer to obvious questions. I hear someone downplaying his knowledge of the main characters.

The police seemed to hear the same things.

 

[antiquegirl]

IMO His mother just saying hi and walking by when he was questioned followed by her lack of presence at his trial and toppled by her 28 year old, drug addict son moving in and out of her house may speak volumes, not judging though it could simply be a case of her horror against the crime he is being accused of but it's strange.

The circumstances of MR's mother's presence there are unclear. LE concluded the interview very shortly after she arrived - I timed it at less than two minutes. She could have been hanging up her coat, putting away groceries, whatever, and then LE left. She could even have been standing right there - it wasn't noted where she was after she said "hi".

As for her not being at the trial, if she is going to testify at any time in the future, she would not be allowed in the courtroom. It's also possible that she is there and no members of the media have recognized her. I've never seen a picture of her in these past three years.

JMO