Weekend Discussion Thread 3/24-26/2012

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  • #101
A suggestion by a defense attorney claiming "he came back to find Tori dead" is enough, imo admission that his client was indeed at the crime scene of a murdered child.

I suggest the Crown will prove it is what it is.

Also IMO any neuro-typical person who just found that their partner had murdered a child would be like I am placating this crazy ***** until we get back to civilization and then driving her straight to the police station. If he was truly innocent he would have done the right thing.
 
  • #102
Hey All
I am new to the forum but not to the case. I can think of nothing more incriminating of the accused than the defense put forward by his own attorney thus far! It was not immediately clear to him that TLM didn't have Tori's parents consent to be with Tori, he helped hide the body, then helped clean up the mess, and failed to tell a soul about what he knew had happened to the girl? That is disgraceful and the defense is pitiful! My opinion only of course.
 
  • #103
Hi Delaware! Welcome to Websleuths!
 
  • #104
Hey guys, I just wanted to address the issue of fetal alcohol syndrome. Someone asked is TLM could be. In my opinion, she does not display any of the physical characteristics associated with FAS. http://www.aafp.org/afp/2005/0715/p279.html. However that does not mean she does not have fetal alcohol effects or some type of other disorder associated with drug or alcohol abuse. I thought Casey Anthony had fragile X syndrome after observing her for a while.

Thank Alison, I'm the one who mentioned FAS/FAE for a couple of reasons. First, her facial characteristics in the motel photo (especially the eyes and bridge of her nose) and secondly because of the repeated incarcerations starting when she hit her teen years. I'm no expert on FAS/FAE but I have been in contact with individuals on both ends of the spectrum and TLM's history, behaviour, and appearance are similar to a young person (with diagnosed FAE) I met along life's journey. She, too, was an angry, hateful, violent person who lied constantly and never learned from her mistakes. Their paths in life run parallel.

Certainly not trying to make excuses for TLM- I just don't want to believe that someone could be born that evil or that she was a child with potential who fell through the cracks and was failed horribly by "the system".
 
  • #105
He drove by the school 3 times that day. At 9:04 am, at 3:05 pm , and at 3:30 pm. Why? To abduct a stray kid who could have wandered in too late that morning? He may have thought Oliver Stephen finished at 3 or 3:05pm. What time does St. Michael's school in Woodstock finish for the day? I wonder if there is footage of his car around there too? Or witnesses who saw his vehicle around that school too. He was the reason for the abduction. He wanted a kid. JMO

http://www.scribd.com/doc/84386320/Rafferty-Trial-Evidence slides 21-23

And we now know that TLM was not with him every time he drove by the school, so he can't say that he was doing it because she was making him do so.
 
  • #106
What do you suppose would have happened to him, if he had called 911 or driven to the police station with the battered body of a dead girl in his back seat...............and TLM claiming that he had kidnapped them both and did the crime?

If the defence theory is true, I can understand how he could have panicked, afraid that he would be arrested, falsely accused and possibly found guilty. I remember his first lawyer commenting on how terrified he was in jail.

In light of the recent evidence against TLM, I am more inclined now to believe that much of what she claims MTR said or did...........is actually what she said or did. She just reversed it because it is easier to remember.

She is an expert at manipulating the truth.

Who knows why she does it.............but it has been evident throughout this trial.

Maybe she just does it to screw over the Crown, because she can.

I wouldn't excuse his behaviour if that is what truly happened, but given that he has the foolishness of youth and a lack of education, it wouldn't come as a complete surprise that he foolishly hoped the crime would be solved in some manner that didn't involve him.
 
  • #107
I think the defence is doing the best he can with what he has. Evidence is going to put MR with TLM that day, there is no getting around that. The defence has scored one with all the revelations of TLM's evil deeds and thoughts, leading right into painting the jury some alternate pictures of what could of actually happened, planting little seeds of doubt that MR acted with a "guilty mind"

I found this read really interesting on Canadian law:

Snip:

Mens rea ("guilty mind") is a difficult concept. It is not defined in the Criminal Code and in Canada, depending upon the particular offence, the prosecution may be required to prove a state of mind that may include either intention (the most common state of mind required to be proven in criminal cases), advertent negligence, knowledge, recklessness, wilful blindness or more specific states of mind contemplated by such words as "maliciously" or "fraudulently."

"Thus, the Charter has given rise to the principle that the mens rea to be proven must "fit" the crime. Most criminal trials are in fact contested on the basis of whether the accused had the requisite state of mind rather than whether he actually performed the prohibited act. This state of mind has to be proven with the same certainty as the other ingredients of a crime, and the prosecution must therefore present a clear picture of what was in the individual's mind at the time the offence was committed."

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/articles/criminal-law
 
  • #108
What do you suppose would have happened to him, if he had called 911 or driven to the police station with the battered body of a dead girl in his back seat...............and TLM claiming that he had kidnapped them both and did the crime?

If the defence theory is true, I can understand how he would have panicked, afraid that he would be arrested, falsely accused and possibly found guilty.

In light of the recent evidence against TLM, I am more inclined now to believe that much of what she claims MTR said or did...........is actually what she said or did.

She is an expert at manipulating the truth.

Who knows why she does it.............but it has been evident throughout this trial.

Maybe she just does it to screw over the Crown.

You should listen to MR's interview on May 19th 2009. He sounds very relaxed and lied about what he knew very easily, like a master of deception. The transcripts don't do justice to how well he handled the police at his house. He knew Tori was dead and where her body was and what happened to her. He is very much an expert at manipulation of truth. JMO
 
  • #109
What do you suppose would have happened to him, if he had called 911 or driven to the police station with the battered body of a dead girl in his back seat...............and TLM claiming that he had kidnapped them both and did the crime?

If the defence theory is true, I can understand how he would have panicked, afraid that he would be arrested, falsely accused and possibly found guilty.

In light of the recent evidence against TLM, I am more inclined now to believe that much of what she claims MTR said or did...........is actually what she said or did.

She is an expert at manipulating the truth.

Who knows why she does it.............but it has been evident throughout this trial.

Maybe she just does it to screw over the Crown.

Even if he didn't have the balls to do that he could have and should have called 911 as soon as he learned that whatever story TLM told him as to why she had Tori was bs.

Its not just that he did the wrong thing once, he did the wrong thing at every turn if he was in fact an innocent bystander.
 
  • #110
What do you suppose would have happened to him, if he had called 911 or driven to the police station with the battered body of a dead girl in his back seat...............and TLM claiming that he had kidnapped them both and did the crime?

If the defence theory is true, I can understand how he would have panicked, afraid that he would be arrested, falsely accused and possibly found guilty.

In light of the recent evidence against TLM, I am more inclined now to believe that much of what she claims MTR said or did...........is actually what she said or did.

She is an expert at manipulating the truth.

Who knows why she does it.............but it has been evident throughout this trial.

Maybe she just does it to screw over the Crown.

I wouldn't excuse his behaviour if that is what truly happened, but given that he has the foolishness of youth and a lack of education, it wouldn't come as a complete surprise that he thought he could just not get involved and hoped the case would be solved some other way.

Why on earth would he have put Victoria in the backseat of his car? He could have and should have left both of them there and called the police. And then waited out on the road for them to show up. And then told him this crazy story that they are now expecting 12 intelligent people to believe about how he thought TLM was just babysitting and he didn't know that when Victoria first got in his car that it was a kidnapping. Nor did he know at any point in their 3 hour tour until for some unexplained reason, he drove them to a secluded laneway in the middle of nowhere and went for a walk.

He didn't do this because it is not what happened.

MOO
 
  • #111
Thank Alison, I'm the one who mentioned FAS/FAE for a couple of reasons. First, her facial characteristics in the motel photo (especially the eyes and bridge of her nose) and secondly because of the repeated incarcerations starting when she hit her teen years. I'm no expert on FAS/FAE but I have been in contact with individuals on both ends of the spectrum and TLM's history, behaviour, and appearance are similar to a young person (with diagnosed FAE) I met along life's journey. She, too, was an angry, hateful, violent person who lied constantly and never learned from her mistakes. Their paths in life run parallel.

Certainly not trying to make excuses for TLM- I just don't want to believe that someone could be born that evil or that she was a child with potential who fell through the cracks and was failed horribly by "the system".

It is my opinion she is part of the spectrum. There are many more characteristics listed here. I suppose Carol and TLM's real mother would know for sure. http://alcoholism.about.com/od/fas/a/fasd_symptoms.htm

Of note, curvature of the spine and TLM has scoliosis. JMO
 
  • #112
JMHO about Tori asking for "it" not to happen "in her bum". I am totally horrified anyone would think Tori would be telling a perverted male stranger, who she was petrified of, "not in my bum", as if she was saying or giving permission in the vagina was ok though? :what: This poor innocent baby, who had been forced to crouch down for approximately two hour, kneeling on water bottles, behind MR driver's seat, she was probably yelled at numerous times to stay down, and who knows what else. This terrified child would be begging and crying for him not to do "it" period. Does that not make sense? As I mentioned in a previous post, children that age may refer to their private areas as bums period. I highly doubt this terrified child was going to be specific and say "not in my vagina or not in my rectum". Wow I cannot even phathom the thought of that or a grown woman saying something like that to a perverted stranger who is raping her.

Tori knew those where forbidden areas for anyone to touch. TM went through the whole Stranger Danger teaching to Tori and DS, I imagine she also covered the topic of sexual assault also. As someone mentioned in a recent post, TM may have been abusing drugs and living with an accused pedo, but I am pretty certain she was very protective of her children in that regard, unlike TLM's mother. There is no doubt in my mind TM did/does not love her children. Everyone is capable of love and there is no bond stronger than a mother's love for her children.

This was the day of testimony where TLM stated Tori had cried and begged that dreadful plea. I do recall reading it somewhere and Tori did say "NOT in my bum".

I do believe TLM was trying her best to be truthful during her testimony. She has nothing to lose, only something to gain by being honest now. As sick and evil as she is, I know she is quite capable of telling the truth, especially when it serves her own purpose, which would be the faint hope clause. I pray to the good Lord above she is never released from prison. JMHO.

So allegedly in mid-attack, Mr. Rafferty had summonsed McClintic back to the vehicle — she said she’d walked a distance away, where she stood alternately staring off at a silo and reliving her own alleged childhood trauma — because Tori had to pee.

“I walked her to the front of the vehicle,” McClintic said. “She grabbed onto my hand, and then she went to the washroom. She held onto me when she went to walk so she wouldn’t fall.”

Prosecutor Kevin Gowdey asked her if she noticed anything after Tori had relieved herself.

“There was blood on the snow,” McClintic replied.

“I told her I was sorry,” she said. “She said don’t let him do it again.

“I told her she was a very strong girl. She said, ‘Like you?’ and I said, ‘No, you’re very much stronger.’”

Then, she said, “I walked her back to the vehicle and gave her back to Mike.”

Mr. Rafferty, she said, picked Tori up and prepared to resume the assault.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/03/13/tori-stafford-trial-christie-blatchford/

These two deviants need to spend the remainder of their lives locked away with no chance of every getting out, and I bet I am not the only person who feels this way. Words cannot describe the hatred I feel for the two of them. I hope they both get a taste of what they put Tori through that day while they are incarcerated. My own personal opinion. :moo:
 
  • #113
Why would she tell police in Jan 2012, when she told them it was her that killed Tori, that it was also her idea to buy the hammer and garbage bags? Then, she recants that and falls back on her original statement that he instructed her to buy them.

I think a little too much of the truth slipped out that day and she had to backtrack to parts of the original story because if she maintained that it was her idea to buy the hammer then it would be more than reasonable to conclude that the kidnapping and murder were her idea too.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/23/19543041.html

McClintic, meanwhile, changed her story to police Jan. 14, 2012, and testified in court she was the one who struck the fatal hammer blows that killed Tori.

MOO

For two days, Derstine pushed McClintic to admit she was "the driving force" behind the abduction and killing.

He noted Friday that in her Jan. 14, 2012, statement to police she said it was her decision to buy the hammer.

She was not telling the truth about that, McClintic testified.

"I made that statement because I was trying to get out of testifying."
 
  • #114
I think the defence is doing the best he can with what he has. Evidence is going to put MR with TLM that day, there is no getting around that. The defence has scored one with all the revelations of TLM's evil deeds and thoughts, leading right into painting the jury some alternate pictures of what could of actually happened, planting little seeds of doubt that MR acted with a "guilty mind"

I found this read really interesting on Canadian law:

Snip:

Mens rea ("guilty mind") is a difficult concept. It is not defined in the Criminal Code and in Canada, depending upon the particular offence, the prosecution may be required to prove a state of mind that may include either intention (the most common state of mind required to be proven in criminal cases), advertent negligence, knowledge, recklessness, wilful blindness or more specific states of mind contemplated by such words as "maliciously" or "fraudulently."

"Thus, the Charter has given rise to the principle that the mens rea to be proven must "fit" the crime. Most criminal trials are in fact contested on the basis of whether the accused had the requisite state of mind rather than whether he actually performed the prohibited act. This state of mind has to be proven with the same certainty as the other ingredients of a crime, and the prosecution must therefore present a clear picture of what was in the individual's mind at the time the offence was committed."

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/articles/criminal-law

That's very interesting and very applicable to this case. How does the Crown go about doing that. Would cruising around the school work towards proving that? I guess TLM's account of him talking about breaking into a single mom's could prove he was of that mind in the past, but thats just TLM's testimony.
 
  • #115
BBM: What exactly is going on with the Canadian Justice System, when a murderer gets 5 years, and accessories get 2 year sentences?

Totally, 100% wrong.

Canadians need to stand up against these outrageous sentences.

Agreed!!!
You get more time for stealing money here than killing someone ~ just shows where priorities lay! Makes me sick!!
 
  • #116
Even if he didn't have the balls to do that he could have and should have called 911 as soon as he learned that whatever story TLM told him as to why she had Tori was bs.

Its not just that he did the wrong thing once, he did the wrong thing at every turn if he was in fact an innocent bystander.

If he's anything like the "wimpy coward" that many here claim him to be, it doesn't surprise me that he tried to hide his involvement. TLM could have threatened him and his family if he said anything, it's been proven in court, through her previous writings, that she had the means to find the names and addresses of witness that were responsible for putting her in juvie. Who's to say she wouldn't do that again and actually follow through, after all, she had already bashed in the skull of an 8yr old, it wouldn't be much harder for her to make a few calls and have one of her "Crips" buddies make a home visit to MR's mom.

I agree it was stupid of him to not go to the police, if it is in fact true that he helped with the clean up, but no one can say what they'd do for sure unless you have been put in those shoes, I don't care who you are or what you say. If you felt your family was threatened and wasn't the type to trust the police, you'd keep your mouth shut too.

MOO
 
  • #117
Why would she tell police in Jan 2012, when she told them it was her that killed Tori, that it was also her idea to buy the hammer and garbage bags? Then, she recants that and falls back on her original statement that he instructed her to buy them.

I think a little too much of the truth slipped out that day and she had to backtrack to parts of the original story because if she maintained that it was her idea to buy the hammer then it would be more than reasonable to conclude that the kidnapping and murder were her idea too.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/23/19543041.html

"I made that statement because I was trying to get out of testifying."
This is a very telling part of what she said. In prison she needs to play the game to survive. Testifying would make her a rat in the minds of the other prisoners. I wonder if everything she said that day in January 2012 was to get her out of testifying. :moo:
 
  • #118
In Canada you only have to serve two years for repeated sexual assaults against young hockey players . Unreal.

ETA sorry for the OT-was in reference to murderers getting less time than thieves in above posts.
 
  • #119
Why would she tell police in Jan 2012, when she told them it was her that killed Tori, that it was also her idea to buy the hammer and garbage bags? Then, she recants that and falls back on her original statement that he instructed her to buy them.

I think a little too much of the truth slipped out that day and she had to backtrack to parts of the original story because if she maintained that it was her idea to buy the hammer then it would be more than reasonable to conclude that the kidnapping and murder were her idea too.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/23/19543041.html

IMO he drove to the HD and told her to buy some garbage bags and something to use as a weapon. She chose the hammer. Not much else in a hardware store that's cheap and effective. I believe she fully knew what was about to take place in a secluded area. And she knew what her role was going to be.

MOO
 
  • #120
It is my opinion she is part of the spectrum. There are many more characteristics listed here. I suppose Carol and TLM's real mother would know for sure. http://alcoholism.about.com/od/fas/a/fasd_symptoms.htm

Of note, curvature of the spine and TLM has scoliosis. JMO

I would like to know if anyone has ever thought to check TLM for FAS. She was asked if she suffered from any health problems/issues by the Crown, during her first day of testimony and her response was scoliosis. One would think if she had been tested and also suffered from FAS she would have mentioned that too. :waitasec: She does fit so many of the symptoms in that article you posted above Matou.
 
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