Weekend Discussion Thread 3/24-26/2012

[Kamille]

I can only guess the safe house refers to a place where Tori would be held until the drug debt was paid. The defence is suggesting that is why TLM kidnapped Tori.

MOO

Where in this country is there a "safe house" where someone can go with a kidnapped child until a drug debt is settled?

And how would MR know of such a place? Does he have experience with kidnapped people? Did he research this?

FWIW...the "safe house" suggestion is not direct evidence or testimony. It's a planted idea from the defendent's lawyer. So the jury is not to include any suggestion of one in their deliberations. Unless MR himself wants to get up there and claim that.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Why did he get rid of his backseat? When did he get rid of it? Right after the 15th of his interview? Why was he trying to get another car? JMO

According to this post: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5638822&postcount=53"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased Canada-*FOUND* Victoria Stafford, 8, Woodstock, Ontario; thread #29[/ame]

I'd like to point out, however, that while MR's rear seat was missing at the time of his arrest, I'm pretty sure that Wendell said it did exist some months before then. She was not sure when she saw it last. By the time DrivenChick cleaned out his car (a couple of weeks after Tori went missing), the bench was gone.

the backseat was missing a couple of weeks after Victoria went missing.

 

[antiquegirl]

This is a very telling part of what she said. In prison she needs to play the game to survive. Testifying would make her a rat in the minds of the other prisoners. I wonder if everything she said that day in January 2012 was to get her out of testifying. :moo:

TLM took part in an abduction that resulted in the murder of a child. She did not recant her story that MTR sexually assaulted that child. How could she think that she would not be testifying at his trial - regardless of whose idea the hammer was?

As for being a "rat", sexual offenders against children are notoriously despised by the general prison population. Testifying against one would likely make her a hero in their eyes, not a target. But since she has admitted being the murderer of a child, no matter what she testified, she also would be targeted in prison. Killers are okay, killers of children - not so much.

JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

it wasn't stated exactly at what point along the way, that tlm "supposedly" informed mtr of the real reason vs was with them. If that was deliberately left out by derstine or will be revealed later remains to be seen.

On the other side of the fence............

I am curious of the little information of mtr's criminal record.

I believe that normally, the criminal record of the accused is not revealed, but it was introduced into testimony as part of le investigations into mtr.

There are different levels of criminal record checks, and the higher the level the more the information revealed.

A general cpic check would reveal convictions, outstanding charges, warrants etc.

A more detailed criminal record check, such as those required for volunteering or working with young children, contains more information.

A criminal record check with local police forces, may reveal even more, although a local police service would not have information that happened in another jurisdiction. As mtr apparently moved around a bit, one would think that le contacted all the various le in the places where he lived.

Such an in-depth criminal record check would reveal any "contacts" with the police. This would include routine stops for vehicle checks, if a person was at one time considered a suspect in a crime, a witness of a crime, attending a bush party, and so on.

it would be interesting to learn if mtr had any record of anything with any le agencies in places where he lived.

a criminal record doesn't determine guilt or innocence, but it can be a forebearer of things to come.............as tlm's criminal record did.

(bbm)

am980.ca‏@am980_court

derstine asks if rafferty had any criminal record. Darmon says no. All the questions he has.

 

[Ardy]

Derstine has introduced an alternative theory, but it is vague and not fully established.

I think he will have to firm up the theory with some supporting evidence, if he hopes the jury will consider it as viable.

It would be extremely risky, and not recommended by many experienced lawyers, to have MTR tell his story and then face what would be a withering Crown cross examination, but this trial could turn into a "he said....she said" trial and his credibility may be considered better than TLM's at this point.

I hope the evidence coming forth is strong enough for people to have faith that justice prevailed.

I still go back to what I consider a key point in TLM's statements.

She said that MTR took the CD out of the radio and tuned in news stations to monitor them for any "alert" for missing VS. According to her, he showed immediate and almost panicky concern that an alert would come out.

I think this is crucial..................because how is it that someone so concerned about an alert on the radio is capable of doing everything that followed over the course of several hours, including maintaining a deviant sexual interest.........never knowing when an alert may be issued?

With VS in the back seat, she would hear an alert on the radio, and would know whatever story TLM had told her to get in the car, was a lie and she may start screaming, banging on the glass, kicking the door or anything to draw attention.

Would someone so concerned about an alert, be dropping into a Tim Horton's for tea, or the Home Depot, or a friend's home (which is a semi-detached with neighbours)

By making this statement TLM points the finger at MTR as an immediate accomplice.

Who knows....maybe they were both so drugged out, stupid, and depraved, that they didn't even realize the position they would be in if an alert came out when in a public place.

Then again, maybe normal people can't understand the thought process of someone as evil as TLM and allegedly MTR.

 

[Sillybilly]

Hypothetically speaking, if his semen is mixed with Tori's blood, then that is far more damning and difficult to prove his innocence. I will certainly agree to that.

MOO

I suppose TLM's claim that MTR was driving around masturbating could explain that scenario. Mind you, i doubt the jury would consider him a good citizen if they believe he was doing so with an abducted child in the car.

 

[Sparklin]

It wasn't stated exactly at what point along the way, that TLM "supposedly" informed MTR of the real reason VS was with them. If that was deliberately left out by Derstine or will be revealed later remains to be seen.

On the other side of the fence............

I am curious of the little information of MTR's criminal record.

I believe that normally, the criminal record of the accused is not revealed, but it was introduced into testimony as part of LE investigations into MTR.

There are different levels of criminal record checks, and the higher the level the more the information revealed.

A general CPIC check would reveal convictions, outstanding charges, warrants etc.

A more detailed criminal record check, such as those required for volunteering or working with young children, contains more information.

A criminal record check with local police forces, may reveal even more, although a local police service would not have information that happened in another jurisdiction. As MTR apparently moved around a bit, one would think that LE contacted all the various LE in the places where he lived.

Such an in-depth criminal record check would reveal any "contacts" with the police. This would include routine stops for vehicle checks, if a person was at one time considered a suspect in a crime, a witness of a crime, attending a bush party, and so on.

It would be interesting to learn if MTR had any record of anything with any LE agencies in places where he lived.

A criminal record doesn't determine guilt or innocence, but it can be a forebearer of things to come.............as TLM's criminal record did.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine asks if Rafferty had any criminal record. Darmon says no. All the questions he has.

 

[Sillybilly]

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine asks if Rafferty had any criminal record. Darmon says no. All the questions he has.

IMO, that would only relate to actual convictions .. not necessarily arrests, charges, acquittals.

 

[dilbert]

I suppose TLM's claim that MTR was driving around masturbating could explain that scenario. Mind you, i doubt the jury would consider him a good citizen if they believe he was doing so with an abducted child in the car.

I would think it would be difficult to masturbate while driving down a snowy, slippery country lane way while driving a stick shift.

MOO

 

[antiquegirl]

I suppose TLM's claim that MTR was driving around masturbating could explain that scenario. Mind you, i doubt the jury would consider him a good citizen if they believe he was doing so with an abducted child in the car.

He didn't even have to be doing that. It was his car and he almost certainly had had sex in that car. TLM even testified that they did the first night they met. I'd bet she wasn't the only one. The only way it would incriminate him is if that semen was mixed with any DNA from Tori, or found on any of her belongings.

JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

IMO, that would only relate to actual convictions .. not necessarily arrests, charges, acquittals.

But can't those be searched? Somehow, JG's charges (acquitted) have become public knowledge. I have copies of the papers myself. Mariam M's father was charged and acquitted of a crime in California. When she went missing, the media found it within a few days and the details were out there. I would think that anyone who knew how to find these arrest records (acquitted or not) would have found them by now. I don't believe that this question referred strictly to convictions; the question said "record". Any arrests would be on public record, except possibly juvenile ones.

JMO

 

[dilbert]

Where in this country is there a "safe house" where someone can go with a kidnapped child until a drug debt is settled?

And how would MR know of such a place? Does he have experience with kidnapped people? Did he research this?

FWIW...the "safe house" suggestion is not direct evidence or testimony. It's a planted idea from the defendent's lawyer. So the jury is not to include any suggestion of one in their deliberations. Unless MR himself wants to get up there and claim that.

MOO

I'm pretty sure I said it was a suggestion and my opinion only. (MOO) Here's my comment that led to the question of safe houses.

Not necessarily, according to the suggestion Derstine put forth, they pulled in to that field to take Tori to a safe house, TLM told MR to walk away so she could talk to Tori. MR would not have known she was going to kill Tori, there was no talk in that suggestion that TLM was ever going to kill Tori and MR did not see what she bought at Home Depot because TLM put it in the trunk.
(we've seen that in the video)

So, he walks back and see's what TLM has done, still in a rage she screams at him to help her because "he's in it as deep as her". Did she threaten him with the hammer if he didn't help? If he told the police? Did she threaten his mother, his family at that time? We don't know yet, but it's certainly plausible.

Hypothetically speaking, if his semen is mixed with Tori's blood, then that is far more damning and difficult to prove his innocence. I will certainly agree to that.

MOO

IMO the suggestion is that TLM, at some point, told MR that she took Tori as collateral for a drug debt and was to transport her to a "safe house", at some point she offered her to him as a gift, after he declined he suggested they take her to the safe house to end it all, TLM tricked him in to thinking that's where they were going when they drove through the country and down the lane way.

What part of that makes you think MR would know of the safe house before TLM mentioned it?

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Agree. Am I missing something though? How does a field in the middle of rural Ontario = safehouse? JMO

I think the field was on the way to the safe house. It doesn't make sense.

Why would he suggest a safe house? That terminology is awkward too. Maybe he figured she would freak if he said the police, but he could suggested any number of things, but a "safe house"?


Nevermind, I understand why a safe house would be a logical suggestion if TLM told MTR Tori was taken because of a drug debt. Still doesn't make sense that he would agree to it though.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Safe house? Can someone pls define that? Safe for whom? Where was the supposed safe house and why didn't they ever actually make it there (or did they?).

Here in AZ safe house is used in connection with people who cross the border from Mexico. It refers to a place where a group of immigrants are dropped off, held, or are staying temporarily before they reach their final destination. Often times a safe house is connected to the criminal network or coyote that is paid to lead or bring the immigrants into the country. It can also refer to a place where groups of immigrants are staying sometimes in small homes or apartments with many people living in them. It is "safe" because they are relatively sure that they will not be turned in for being illegal.

When I hear the term "safe house" I think of it as a place where are criminal can go where they won't be turned in. There must be other meanings though because dropping Tori off at such a place would be horrible.

Sorry, I see Dilbert already explained it.

 

[dilbert]

Think about it, if TLM kidnapped Tori as collateral over a drug debt, wouldn't she have to stash her somewhere until the debt was paid (and Tori could be given back in exchange for payment)? Why on earth would MR suggest a safe house if he had no prior knowledge of the kidnapping, it was TLM that said she was taking her to the safe house, but first she offered her to MR, when he declined he could have said, can't we just take her to the safe house now?
There likely never was a "safe house" and TLM planned all along to kill Tori, but she couldn't tell MR that or he likely would never have allowed them to get in his car.

I'm not saying this is how I think it happened, but rather, that is how I interpreted the suggestion put for by the defence. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I don't know any other way to explain it more clearly. Moving on...

MOO

 

[dar107]

I think the field was on the way to the safe house. It doesn't make sense.

Why would he suggest a safe house? That terminology is awkward too. Maybe he figured she would freak if he said the police, but he could suggested any number of things, but a "safe house"?

I think it was "suggested" that TLM was the one talking about a safe house.

http://www.thespec.com/news/crime/a...ferty-as-innocent-dupe-in-tori-stafford-death

Snip:

"When it became clear he didn't want your gift you directed him to a rural location on a pretext... you said that she could be taken to a safe house," Derstine suggested. "Once you got to that lane you told him to walk away because you had to talk to the little girl because she was scared of him."

 

[antiquegirl]

I think the field was on the way to the safe house. It doesn't make sense.

Why would he suggest a safe house? That terminology is awkward too. Maybe he figured she would freak if he said the police, but he could suggested any number of things, but a "safe house"?

The terminology is Derstine's, not necessarily MTR's. Derstine was suggesting alternate scenarios. We don't know if MTR said anything like this at all.

JMO

 

[Ardy]

Was it a reference to a "safe house" as in a place like where the police might put an informant..........or a safe house as in a house that was a safe place to take VS, and from his point of view at the time, a place where there were other people so he could explain to them what was going on and they could call the police.

By doing so, would give a small measure of proof that he didn't have any part in the abduction, and sought help when he found out.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Here in AZ safe house is used in connection with people who cross the border from Mexico. It refers to a place where a group of immigrants are dropped off, held, or are staying temporarily before they reach their final destination. Often times a safe house is connected to the criminal network or coyote that is paid to lead or bring the immigrants into the country. It can also refer to a place where groups of immigrants are staying sometimes in small homes or apartments with many people living in them. It is "safe" because they are relatively sure that they will not be turned in for being illegal.

When I hear the term "safe house" I think of it as a place where are criminal can go where they won't be turned in. There must be other meanings though because dropping Tori off at such a place would be horrible.

A safe house could also be a place where VS could stay until her parents could pick her up, like a block parent house. If he thought she was abducted for a drug debt, it could be assumed that the parents would pick her up without involving the police.

A safe house is a location where people may go to avoid persecution of their activities by authorities. It is also a phrase used by intelligence agencies and police forces as meaning a secured location, suitable for hiding witnesses agents or other persons perceived as being in danger. Many neighborhoods have a location to which children are instructed to go when they feel that they are in danger as well, a place where a trusted adult or family has agreed to provide a safe haven.

The common theme of each of these meanings is that of a safe place or sanctuary from harm.

Safe houses were an integral part of the Underground railroad, a network of safe locations which were used to assist slaves to escape to freedom in the United States.

Many religious institutions will allow one to obtain sanctuary within their place of worship, and some governments respect and do not violate such sanctuary.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Safe_house

 

[OhSoCurious]

Don't know about the States and Mexico but in Canada when someone refers to "safe house", it actually means that; a safe house.

an example would be this:

http://www.safeshelter.ca/

Obviously something so specific was not being suggested. Rather a home in which Tori could be held until a later time.

It would actually appear that her mother almost anticipated such demands as she spoke out to the media daily. I recall her mentioning something to that effect.