Weekend Discussion Thread 3/24-26/2012

[Flossie JMO]

<rsbm>

MTR was not instrumental in locating Tori's remains. Det. Smythe found them on a combination of gut feeling and some sketches TLM had provided.

I recall that. And a cryptic statement from LE imo sort of discounting that much later iirc

 

[Sillybilly]

I wonder at what point LE tipped their hand to MTR in letting him know he was a suspect, and what his stories were then (i.e. are there other audio interviews prior to him retaining Hal Mattson?)

 

[flipflop]

I wonder at what point LE tipped their hand to MTR in letting him know he was a suspect, and what his stories were then (i.e. are there other audio interviews prior to him retaining Hal Mattson?)

Im guessing , when he was arrested, as it was just days after his interview on May 15th that we listened to.

 

[antiquegirl]

Intimidated, perhaps but I have never heard of an innocent person being afraid of the police especially when they are only being asked about someone who they knew. Most people are more than willing to help find a missing child. Like TLM's neighbours and hundreds of others who called in tips when Tori was "missing".

One only be afraid if they are hiding something. A crime they may have been a part of. imo

I don't believe anyone has said that MTR was "innocent" or not involved in some way. Not even his own lawyer. The question that needs an answer is to what extent he was involved. For him to have given up the location of Tori's remains would be tantamount to a confession and something I'm certain his attorneys would have vehemently discouraged.

JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

<rsbm>

MTR was not instrumental in locating Tori's remains. Det. Smythe found them on a combination of gut feeling and some sketches TLM had provided.

I'm aware of that, but when Tori's remains were found, I thought it was reported that it was because of a tip they got which helped Det. Smyth find the remains(exlcuding TLM's participation). I can't find that news article anymore tho sorry.

 

[matou]

<rsbm>

MTR was not instrumental in locating Tori's remains. Det. Smythe found them on a combination of gut feeling and some sketches TLM had provided.

Actually, he was. His cell phone pinged off the cell tower that's located right near the location of the remains. TLM gave Smyth the sketches and he went driving around that area and found it. It was a combined "effort". JMO

Tori&#8217;s body would not be found until July 19th. It was not by accident or even a veteran investigator&#8217;s hunch, as originally reported by the media. Police had obtained a court order to retrieve phone records from Rafferty&#8217;s BlackBerry, court heard. OPP discovered that Rafferty had used his BlackBerry to check voice mail at 7.47 p.m., April 8, with that call pinging off a cellphone tower near Mount Forest.

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...fic-details-of-slaying-revealed-as-case-opens

 

[matou]

I wonder at what point LE tipped their hand to MTR in letting him know he was a suspect, and what his stories were then (i.e. are there other audio interviews prior to him retaining Hal Mattson?)

Didn't he ask TLM when she was in juvie if the police were suspicious of him? JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Actually, he was. His cell phone pinged off the cell tower that's located right near the location of the remains. TLM gave Smyth the sketches and he went driving around that area and found it. It was a combined "effort". JMO

Tori’s body would not be found until July 19th. It was not by accident or even a veteran investigator’s hunch, as originally reported by the media. Police had obtained a court order to retrieve phone records from Rafferty’s BlackBerry, court heard. OPP discovered that Rafferty had used his BlackBerry to check voice mail at 7.47 p.m., April 8, with that call pinging off a cellphone tower near Mount Forest.

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...fic-details-of-slaying-revealed-as-case-opens

Ah thank you Matou, that clears things up for me I guess I can put that part of my theory to bed then.

 

[Sillybilly]

A bit OT here, but

Speaking of obstruction charges, does anyone know whatever became of that very charge against Mattson (it was supposedly based on him trying to influence a witness in a murder case ... not sure if it was MTR's case) ??

 

[flipflop]

A bit OT here, but

Speaking of obstruction charges, does anyone know whatever became of that very charge against Mattson (it was supposedly based on him trying to influence a witness in a murder case ... not sure if it was MTR's case) ??

A prominent Kitchener, Ont., defence lawyer has been charged with obstructing justice. Police say Hal Mattson, who once represented Michael Rafferty, one of the accused in the murder of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford of Woodstock, Ont., tried to influence witness testimony in an attempted murder case.

Waterloo Regional Police Service spokesman Olaf Heinzel says police received a complaint in October during the preliminary stage of a criminal trial for five people charged with attempted murder and drug offences last year related to a shooting in Cambridge, Ont

Mattson represented Rafferty for about six weeks from the time of his arrest in connection with Stafford&#8217;s murder.

But after relations between the pair broke down, they parted ways. &#8220;We came to a fork in the path that wouldn&#8217;t allow us to represent him, and I don&#8217;t think he would have appreciated our representation, unfortunately,&#8221; Mattson says. &#8220;Our solicitor communication had broken down

http://www.lawtimesnews.com/201011227945/Headline-News/Arrested-lawyer-decries-police-tactics

 

[~n/t~]

I don't believe anyone has said that MTR was "innocent" or not involved in some way. Not even his own lawyer. The question that needs an answer is to what extent he was involved. For him to have given up the location of Tori's remains would be tantamount to a confession and something I'm certain his attorneys would have vehemently discouraged.

JMO

Oh yes, we know that. The girl he hardly knew did it for him 4 days after that interview.

 

[Sillybilly]

A prominent Kitchener, Ont., defence lawyer has been charged with obstructing justice. Police say Hal Mattson, who once represented Michael Rafferty, one of the accused in the murder of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford of Woodstock, Ont., tried to influence witness testimony in an attempted murder case.

Waterloo Regional Police Service spokesman Olaf Heinzel says police received a complaint in October during the preliminary stage of a criminal trial for five people charged with attempted murder and drug offences last year related to a shooting in Cambridge, Ont

http://www.lawtimesnews.com/201011227945/Headline-News/Arrested-lawyer-decries-police-tactics

Thanks flip ... my memory's getting rusty i see

Lordy, i need a nap
ETA: LOL ... a lot worse than i thought, isn't it flip?

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Didn't he ask TLM when she was in juvie if the police were suspicious of him? JMO

I think that those visits are going to tell us a lot about the dynamics of TLM and MTR's relationship. Who is the more dominant or submissive of the two in the relationship, was MTR afraid of TLM etc.

Do we know how many times he visited or spoke on the phone to TLM, who called who or anything else about their contact while TLM was at the detention center?

 

[Kamille]

MR had six weeks to watch how this case was unfolding and to realize that the random child that they had abducted was actually connected to TLM, however vaguely. What an ironic co-incidence and a huge bonus for him when TLM eventually rolled on him.

He had several weeks to formulate a story, should he ever need one, using the victim’s own mother and what she unfortunately may have implied in the media and perhaps among close friends and family. TM considered TLM to possibly be the woman on the tape within 4 days of the abduction. She knew there was a connection there, both dogs and drugs. I believe that TM did think that maybe that connection is the reason why TLM was seen leading her daughter away on that video. What mother wouldn’t? That’s the first thing you are asked when a child goes missing. Who do you know who might have a problem with you and why? And when you actually have a video of someone looking very much like someone that you do have a connection with, well then your mind has to go to all kinds of possibilities.

So IMO MR jumped on that connection. He found out in those six weeks that TM had a theory about why someone might want to take her daughter to be “mildly vindictive”. And since we’ve yet to establish the drug connection (and if the defence is going to perpetuate that, why on earth haven’t they established it?!) perhaps it was the snub about the dog breeding that she had in mind. Or maybe JG did rip CM off for some pills and he‘s going to be brought in at a later date to testify. Either way, no one would kidnap and kill a child for this. Not even TLM with all her demons IMO. If everything that’s been suggested about TLM is true, she would have gone right up to JG and stabbed him on the spot if he didn‘t pay up. She did it to the last guy whom she asked for money and he didn’t comply. She would not have planned to kidnap and murder Victoria for payback. And if she did, she didn’t need to get an accomplice and drag her all the way out to a secluded field in Mt Forest to do this. She could have done it herself very easily right there in town I’m sure. Quickly, before Victoria was even reported as missing. What "gangsta" Cripp would take the chance of some random guy you barely knew rolling on you regarding a planned abduction and murder? She could have asked one of her Cripp posse to help out if she really thought she needed assistance with this payback revenge. She could trust one of them to keep quiet I'm sure.

But then if the motive was to help out your new boyfriend with some sick sexual urge he was fantasizing about, then that would certainly create a bond between you right? A bond she may have wanted to establish and keep. It worked for Karla Homolka. She went along with and assisted in the sexual assault on her own sister for her "boyfriend" Paul's sick fantasy. And we all know how their relationship progressed from there.

Victoria had NEVER walked home from school alone prior to that day. I’m sure she had been out and about plenty of times by herself after school and on weekends, but NEVER walked home alone. So why would TLM go looking for her after school to catch her on her walk home when she was ALWAYS with other children or being picked up by her grandmother? If TLM had this plan to abduct her, you’d think she would have gotten to know her habits. And walking home from school a long distance by herself was not one of them and TLM would have known that. And even if it was, or TLM thought it was, she would have tried to meet up with her further along the route, not on the outer fringes of the school property where she would likely have been seen by other parents and children. She could have befriended her at any time away from a busy school zone when there were few people around and carried this out. Why after school in a crowd of other children if it was this particular child she was looking for? This makes absolutely no sense and common sense is sorely lacking from this defence IMO. TLM was at the school to find the first child who appeared to be alone and not being picked up by a parent. Victoria just happened to be that child IMO.

Apparently, MR was connected to a good friend of TM’s, another ironic co-incidence. Woodstock does seem to be a small place in terms of who knows who co-incidences. He had the inside scoop for the first couple of weeks of just what was going through TM’s mind if he was asking Amanda questions and pestering her for inside info. I guess we might hear about what conversations they may have had regarding this if Amanda shows up on the witness stand. He also stayed in contact with CM and TLM. To get more information about their connection to TM and JG no doubt. He stayed updated on everything in the news, including the information about JG which according to TLM‘s testimony, he passed on to her. He knew everything about all of them from reading the media and the boards in my opinion.

I also believe he used all that information he gathered during those six weeks to formulate his defence, should it ever get to that. If it wasn’t for the evidence that placed him with TLM and Victoria throughout the whole time frame, and the DNA evidence we're yet to hear, we would not be hearing any of this reluctant admission that he was in fact there and knew that Victoria was actually murdered. He knew it all along as he went about his “normal” life in the days and weeks that followed. He knew it when his backseat went missing within days of the abduction. I bet he told people about his “theory” of why Victoria was missing. I bet we’ll hear from some of those people. And I believe he used this theory, that was perpetuated here and on other crime forums and media news article comments to formulate just why it was that he happened to end up with Victoria in his car that day.

TLM also had time during those six weeks to formulate her version of events. And her version of their travels that day prior to and up until the murder, based on the evidence so far, seems to be lining up. I don’t believe her version about how this came about though. I think it was a plan to abduct a child for sexual purposes. Between the two of them. That they had been working on for a while. Where it starts to really go off the rails for me is the part about MR being the actual killer. Because it is her jacket and the murder weapon that are missing. We don’t know at this point what items of clothing belonging to MR may be missing. There may have been a car wash involved but TLM was not going to lead LE there when prodded to discover the evidence that pointed to her as the person who wielded the hammer. They would likely find her bloody clothes and her prints on the weapon. If there is a car wash involved, it was likely not in Cambridge. By leading them to the crime scene however, I think we’re going to find evidence of MR’s DNA, fingerprints etc on at least the garbage bags. Which is why his defence has to concede that he was involved in the disposal of a murdered child IMO. It’s unlikely there will be any DNA evidence of either of them on Victoria’s remains after months of decomposition.

Why did TLM decide to "come clean" in January and admit to being the person who delivered the final blows to Victoria in that laneway that day? And to also admit to the horrific dog incident from her childhood? I hope her counsellor is also in the line up of witnesses to attest to how these revelations may have come about.

So the bottom line here is going to be whether the jury believes TLM’s account of the sexual assault. Because that also ties into the motive for the crime in the first place. Victoria was found without any of her clothing from the waist down. That speaks for itself IMO. I hope and pray that they do see through the smoke and mirror show that I believe the defence is trying to create here. And it sickens me that they are using the words and fears of the victim’s own mother to mount this defence. Nothing they have said so far makes sense to me in regards to MR’s actions that day. As I said, this defence is seriously lacking in common sense.

The only "engine" involved in this crime was the one in that Honda Civic. And the driving force behind that engine was MR. He could have put the brakes on that ride at any point. And he didn't.

As always, this is just my opinion.

 

[myzzy]

court is out till tues correct?

 

[Flossie JMO]

JMO TLM will never admit to the sexual assault, IF she did it.

and JMO Karla was the mastermind in that sick evil duo

JMO

 

[matou]

sorry to snip such a beautiful post....

So the bottom line here is going to be whether the jury believes TLM’s account of the sexual assault. Because that also ties into the motive for the crime in the first place. Victoria was found without any of her clothing from the waist down. That speaks for itself IMO. I hope and pray that they do see through the smoke and mirror show that I believe the defence is trying to create here. And it sickens me that they are using the words and fears of the victim’s own mother to mount this defence. Nothing they have said so far makes sense to me in regards to MR’s actions that day. As I said, this defence is seriously lacking in common sense.

The only "engine" involved in this crime was the one in that Honda Civic. And the driving force behind that engine was MR. He could have put the brakes on that ride at any point. And he didn't.

As always, this is just my opinion.

WOW! EXCELLENT POST! This is one of the best things I've read on this forum so far. :blowkiss: JMO

 

[Flossie JMO]

court is out till tues correct?

yes, it's Tuesday to Friday iirc

 

[flipflop]

court is out till tues correct?

this was from fridays tweet.
@AM980_Court
Heeney reminds the jury they won't be sitting next Thursday due to a scheduling conflict. We resume at 10 am Tuesday.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Victoria had NEVER walked home from school alone prior to that day. I’m sure she had been out and about plenty of times by herself after school and on weekends, but NEVER walked home alone. So why would TLM go looking for her after school to catch her on her walk home when she was ALWAYS with other children or being picked up by her grandmother? If TLM had this plan to abduct her, you’d think she would have gotten to know her habits. And walking home from school a long distance by herself was not one of them and TLM would have known that. And even if it was, or TLM thought it was, she would have tried to meet up with her further along the route, not on the outer fringes of the school property where she would likely have been seen by other parents and children. She could have befriended her at any time away from a busy school zone when there were few people around and carried this out. Why after school in a crowd of other children if it was this particular child she was looking for? This makes absolutely no sense and common sense is sorely lacking from this defence IMO. TLM was at the school to find the first child who appeared to be alone and not being picked up by a parent. Victoria just happened to be that child IMO.

Snipped for space

Very good point!