Weekend Discussion Thread 3/24-26/2012

[myzzy]

after reading up tonight, i searched and ran across this nice tribute to Tori
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svwy8cfklrg&feature=related"]The Story Of Victoria "Tori" Stafford - YouTube[/ame]

 

[~n/t~]

MR had six weeks to watch how this case was unfolding and to realize that the random child that they had abducted was actually connected to TLM, however vaguely. What an ironic co-incidence and a huge bonus for him when TLM eventually rolled on him.

He had several weeks to formulate a story, should he ever need one, using the victim’s own mother and what she unfortunately may have implied in the media and perhaps among close friends and family. TM considered TLM to possibly be the woman on the tape within 4 days of the abduction. She knew there was a connection there, both dogs and drugs. I believe that TM did think that maybe that connection is the reason why TLM was seen leading her daughter away on that video. What mother wouldn’t? That’s the first thing you are asked when a child goes missing. Who do you know who might have a problem with you and why? And when you actually have a video of someone looking very much like someone that you do have a connection with, well then your mind has to go to all kinds of possibilities.

So IMO MR jumped on that connection. He found out in those six weeks that TM had a theory about why someone might want to take her daughter to be “mildly vindictive”. And since we’ve yet to establish the drug connection (and if the defence is going to perpetuate that, why on earth haven’t they established it?!) perhaps it was the snub about the dog breeding that she had in mind. Or maybe JG did rip CM off for some pills and he‘s going to be brought in at a later date to testify. Either way, no one would kidnap and kill a child for this. Not even TLM with all her demons IMO. If everything that’s been suggested about TLM is true, she would have gone right up to JG and stabbed him on the spot if he didn‘t pay up. She did it to the last guy whom she asked for money and he didn’t comply. She would not have planned to kidnap and murder Victoria for payback. And if she did, she didn’t need to get an accomplice and drag her all the way out to a secluded field in Mt Forest to do this. She could have done it herself very easily right there in town I’m sure. Quickly, before Victoria was even reported as missing. What "gangsta" Cripp would take the chance of some random guy you barely knew rolling on you regarding a planned abduction and murder? She could have asked one of her Cripp posse to help out if she really thought she needed assistance with this payback revenge. She could trust one of them to keep quiet I'm sure.

But then if the motive was to help out your new boyfriend with some sick sexual urge he was fantasizing about, then that would certainly create a bond between you right? A bond she may have wanted to establish and keep. It worked for Karla Homolka. She went along with and assisted in the sexual assault on her own sister for her "boyfriend" Paul's sick fantasy. And we all know how their relationship progressed from there.

Victoria had NEVER walked home from school alone prior to that day. I’m sure she had been out and about plenty of times by herself after school and on weekends, but NEVER walked home alone. So why would TLM go looking for her after school to catch her on her walk home when she was ALWAYS with other children or being picked up by her grandmother? If TLM had this plan to abduct her, you’d think she would have gotten to know her habits. And walking home from school a long distance by herself was not one of them and TLM would have known that. And even if it was, or TLM thought it was, she would have tried to meet up with her further along the route, not on the outer fringes of the school property where she would likely have been seen by other parents and children. She could have befriended her at any time away from a busy school zone when there were few people around and carried this out. Why after school in a crowd of other children if it was this particular child she was looking for? This makes absolutely no sense and common sense is sorely lacking from this defence IMO. TLM was at the school to find the first child who appeared to be alone and not being picked up by a parent. Victoria just happened to be that child IMO.

Apparently, MR was connected to a good friend of TM’s, another ironic co-incidence. Woodstock does seem to be a small place in terms of who knows who co-incidences. He had the inside scoop for the first couple of weeks of just what was going through TM’s mind if he was asking Amanda questions and pestering her for inside info. I guess we might hear about what conversations they may have had regarding this if Amanda shows up on the witness stand. He also stayed in contact with CM and TLM. To get more information about their connection to TM and JG no doubt. He stayed updated on everything in the news, including the information about JG which according to TLM‘s testimony, he passed on to her. He knew everything about all of them from reading the media and the boards in my opinion.

I also believe he used all that information he gathered during those six weeks to formulate his defence, should it ever get to that. If it wasn’t for the evidence that placed him with TLM and Victoria throughout the whole time frame, and the DNA evidence we're yet to hear, we would not be hearing any of this reluctant admission that he was in fact there and knew that Victoria was actually murdered. He knew it all along as he went about his “normal” life in the days and weeks that followed. He knew it when his backseat went missing within days of the abduction. I bet he told people about his “theory” of why Victoria was missing. I bet we’ll hear from some of those people. And I believe he used this theory, that was perpetuated here and on other crime forums and media news article comments to formulate just why it was that he happened to end up with Victoria in his car that day.

TLM also had time during those six weeks to formulate her version of events. And her version of their travels that day prior to and up until the murder, based on the evidence so far, seems to be lining up. I don’t believe her version about how this came about though. I think it was a plan to abduct a child for sexual purposes. Between the two of them. That they had been working on for a while. Where it starts to really go off the rails for me is the part about MR being the actual killer. Because it is her jacket and the murder weapon that are missing. We don’t know at this point what items of clothing belonging to MR may be missing. There may have been a car wash involved but TLM was not going to lead LE there when prodded to discover the evidence that pointed to her as the person who wielded the hammer. They would likely find her bloody clothes and her prints on the weapon. If there is a car wash involved, it was likely not in Cambridge. By leading them to the crime scene however, I think we’re going to find evidence of MR’s DNA, fingerprints etc on at least the garbage bags. Which is why his defence has to concede that he was involved in the disposal of a murdered child IMO. It’s unlikely there will be any DNA evidence of either of them on Victoria’s remains after months of decomposition.

Why did TLM decide to "come clean" in January and admit to being the person who delivered the final blows to Victoria in that laneway that day? And to also admit to the horrific dog incident from her childhood? I hope her counsellor is also in the line up of witnesses to attest to how these revelations may have come about.

So the bottom line here is going to be whether the jury believes TLM’s account of the sexual assault. Because that also ties into the motive for the crime in the first place. Victoria was found without any of her clothing from the waist down. That speaks for itself IMO. I hope and pray that they do see through the smoke and mirror show that I believe the defence is trying to create here. And it sickens me that they are using the words and fears of the victim’s own mother to mount this defence. Nothing they have said so far makes sense to me in regards to MR’s actions that day. As I said, this defence is seriously lacking in common sense.

The only "engine" involved in this crime was the one in that Honda Civic. And the driving force behind that engine was MR. He could have put the brakes on that ride at any point. And he didn't.

As always, this is just my opinion.

:clap:

 

[~n/t~]

after reading up tonight, i searched and ran across this nice tribute to Tori
The Story Of Victoria "Tori" Stafford - YouTube

:cry:

 

[Hello_Kitty]

after reading up tonight, i searched and ran across this nice tribute to Tori
The Story Of Victoria "Tori" Stafford - YouTube

Thank you. That was beautiful. It made me cry. What a sweet-heart. How can anyone be so cruel to take that life

 

[antiquegirl]

As always, this is just my opinion.

(Respectfully snipped for brevity)

We may not agree about a lot of things, Kamille, but I have to give credit where it's due. This was a very well-thought-out, eloquent post. Thanks for your time and effort.

Kudos! :toast:

 

[flipflop]

London Free Press ‏ @RaffertyLFP
Rafferty "really liked his Blackberry" says Crown - was used by police to trace his movements

hmmm, from this tweet in the opening statement, I wonder if MR returned to areas where things were dumped.

 

[Wondergirl]

Good point. Once arrested why didn't he tell them where the body was as well as the car seat. If he was only there to clean up why lie ?

If TLM did actually murder little Tori, why didn't MTR admit it then and there, when he was arrested?

Why not peddle a deal with LE to TELL ALL, since it was TLM who did "it"?

Additionally, if TLM is really trying to pin this whole crime on MTR, then why admit to killing Tori? Why not continue to blame MTR?

I am beginning to think that poor Rodney may have been right at the start of the trial. That the only one who can tell us what really happened that day is dead.

So very sad.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

London Free Press ‏ @RaffertyLFP
Rafferty "really liked his Blackberry" says Crown - was used by police to trace his movements

hmmm, from this tweet in the opening statement, I wonder if MR returned to areas where things were dumped.

I wish they would have been able to track where he had disposed of the backseat.

 

[Wondergirl]

I wonder if this ex-boyfriend of MTR's mom will even be called to the stand. Having an argument with a family member is hardly indicative that someone is a pedophile. It was TLM who confessed to the violent hammer murder, wasn't it?

As for the word "violent", who can trust the media's interpretation of an event from info provided by the other party? Not me. I've seen too many mistakes and embellishments by the media to trust facts, much less an adjective. As someone pointed out, no one knows which of the two men started this or caused the most damage. No charges were laid, so I'm going to assume that there weren't much, if any, injuries.

vi·o·lent    [vahy-uh-luhnt] Show IPA

adjective

1. acting with or characterized by uncontrolled, strong, rough force: a violent earthquake.
2. caused by injurious or destructive force: a violent death.
3. intense in force, effect, etc.; severe; extreme: violent pain; violent cold.
4. roughly or immoderately vehement or ardent: violent passions.
5. furious in impetuosity, energy, etc.: violent haste.

Last night one of my neighbours had a violently raucous party. I'm just getting over a violent cold myself, where I experienced violent sneezing fits.

JMO

BBM: Ex? Did they split up?

 

[Wondergirl]

As far as MTR's voicemail being checked at 7:47 pm on April 8th, 209 near Mt. Forest, I do wonder if he had any messages, and if so, if he acted upon them in some way, thereby confirming that he was the one who retrieved the message?

 

[Wondergirl]

London Free Press ‏ @RaffertyLFP
Rafferty "really liked his Blackberry" says Crown - was used by police to trace his movements

hmmm, from this tweet in the opening statement, I wonder if MR returned to areas where things were dumped.

Great question, and if MTR did travel to MT. Forest AFTER TLM was incarcerated, and LE can prove this by cell pings, or conversations that he had with people while at/near the location, that may be very compelling evidence against him, his state of mind, and his intentions.


JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

BBM: Ex? Did they split up?

That's how I remember it. That he got tired of MTR mooching off his mother, had enough, and moved out. Sorry, I just don't have the time to try to find proof, but don't see why it matters much either way. HTH

 

[Alethea Dice]

What was the date that they added the charges. This article was May 20th, no body was found yet, what would they have that showed sexual assault. DNA evidence from gym bag, clothes etc wouldn't be back that quick...would it?

I don't think this has been answered yet. If it has, my apologies.

The sexual assault charges weren't laid until June 2010, which was the same month that the decision was made to forego the preliminary hearing and go straight to trial.

Rafferty also faces an additional charge of sexual assault causing bodily harm, reported Delaney. The charge, which is listed on Rafferty's indictment, was laid in June 2010.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20120116/michael-rafferty-pretrial-begins-120116/

A 29-year-old man charged in the death of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford will go straight to trial without a preliminary hearing.

Michael Rafferty's hearing was scheduled to start June 21, but the Ministry of the Attorney General is now proceeding with a direct indictment.

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/818177--michael-rafferty-suspect-in-tori-stafford-death-goes-straight-to-trial

Would it take a year to get DNA evidence of a sexual assault?

 

[swedie]

MR had six weeks to watch how this case was unfolding and to realize that the random child that they had abducted was actually connected to TLM, however vaguely. What an ironic co-incidence and a huge bonus for him when TLM eventually rolled on him.

He had several weeks to formulate a story, should he ever need one, using the victim’s own mother and what she unfortunately may have implied in the media and perhaps among close friends and family. TM considered TLM to possibly be the woman on the tape within 4 days of the abduction. She knew there was a connection there, both dogs and drugs. I believe that TM did think that maybe that connection is the reason why TLM was seen leading her daughter away on that video. What mother wouldn’t? That’s the first thing you are asked when a child goes missing. Who do you know who might have a problem with you and why? And when you actually have a video of someone looking very much like someone that you do have a connection with, well then your mind has to go to all kinds of possibilities.

So IMO MR jumped on that connection. He found out in those six weeks that TM had a theory about why someone might want to take her daughter to be “mildly vindictive”. And since we’ve yet to establish the drug connection (and if the defence is going to perpetuate that, why on earth haven’t they established it?!) perhaps it was the snub about the dog breeding that she had in mind. Or maybe JG did rip CM off for some pills and he‘s going to be brought in at a later date to testify. Either way, no one would kidnap and kill a child for this. Not even TLM with all her demons IMO. If everything that’s been suggested about TLM is true, she would have gone right up to JG and stabbed him on the spot if he didn‘t pay up. She did it to the last guy whom she asked for money and he didn’t comply. She would not have planned to kidnap and murder Victoria for payback. And if she did, she didn’t need to get an accomplice and drag her all the way out to a secluded field in Mt Forest to do this. She could have done it herself very easily right there in town I’m sure. Quickly, before Victoria was even reported as missing. What "gangsta" Cripp would take the chance of some random guy you barely knew rolling on you regarding a planned abduction and murder? She could have asked one of her Cripp posse to help out if she really thought she needed assistance with this payback revenge. She could trust one of them to keep quiet I'm sure.

But then if the motive was to help out your new boyfriend with some sick sexual urge he was fantasizing about, then that would certainly create a bond between you right? A bond she may have wanted to establish and keep. It worked for Karla Homolka. She went along with and assisted in the sexual assault on her own sister for her "boyfriend" Paul's sick fantasy. And we all know how their relationship progressed from there.

Victoria had NEVER walked home from school alone prior to that day. I’m sure she had been out and about plenty of times by herself after school and on weekends, but NEVER walked home alone. So why would TLM go looking for her after school to catch her on her walk home when she was ALWAYS with other children or being picked up by her grandmother? If TLM had this plan to abduct her, you’d think she would have gotten to know her habits. And walking home from school a long distance by herself was not one of them and TLM would have known that. And even if it was, or TLM thought it was, she would have tried to meet up with her further along the route, not on the outer fringes of the school property where she would likely have been seen by other parents and children. She could have befriended her at any time away from a busy school zone when there were few people around and carried this out. Why after school in a crowd of other children if it was this particular child she was looking for? This makes absolutely no sense and common sense is sorely lacking from this defence IMO. TLM was at the school to find the first child who appeared to be alone and not being picked up by a parent. Victoria just happened to be that child IMO.

Apparently, MR was connected to a good friend of TM’s, another ironic co-incidence. Woodstock does seem to be a small place in terms of who knows who co-incidences. He had the inside scoop for the first couple of weeks of just what was going through TM’s mind if he was asking Amanda questions and pestering her for inside info. I guess we might hear about what conversations they may have had regarding this if Amanda shows up on the witness stand. He also stayed in contact with CM and TLM. To get more information about their connection to TM and JG no doubt. He stayed updated on everything in the news, including the information about JG which according to TLM‘s testimony, he passed on to her. He knew everything about all of them from reading the media and the boards in my opinion.

I also believe he used all that information he gathered during those six weeks to formulate his defence, should it ever get to that. If it wasn’t for the evidence that placed him with TLM and Victoria throughout the whole time frame, and the DNA evidence we're yet to hear, we would not be hearing any of this reluctant admission that he was in fact there and knew that Victoria was actually murdered. He knew it all along as he went about his “normal” life in the days and weeks that followed. He knew it when his backseat went missing within days of the abduction. I bet he told people about his “theory” of why Victoria was missing. I bet we’ll hear from some of those people. And I believe he used this theory, that was perpetuated here and on other crime forums and media news article comments to formulate just why it was that he happened to end up with Victoria in his car that day.

TLM also had time during those six weeks to formulate her version of events. And her version of their travels that day prior to and up until the murder, based on the evidence so far, seems to be lining up. I don’t believe her version about how this came about though. I think it was a plan to abduct a child for sexual purposes. Between the two of them. That they had been working on for a while. Where it starts to really go off the rails for me is the part about MR being the actual killer. Because it is her jacket and the murder weapon that are missing. We don’t know at this point what items of clothing belonging to MR may be missing. There may have been a car wash involved but TLM was not going to lead LE there when prodded to discover the evidence that pointed to her as the person who wielded the hammer. They would likely find her bloody clothes and her prints on the weapon. If there is a car wash involved, it was likely not in Cambridge. By leading them to the crime scene however, I think we’re going to find evidence of MR’s DNA, fingerprints etc on at least the garbage bags. Which is why his defence has to concede that he was involved in the disposal of a murdered child IMO. It’s unlikely there will be any DNA evidence of either of them on Victoria’s remains after months of decomposition.

Why did TLM decide to "come clean" in January and admit to being the person who delivered the final blows to Victoria in that laneway that day? And to also admit to the horrific dog incident from her childhood? I hope her counsellor is also in the line up of witnesses to attest to how these revelations may have come about.

So the bottom line here is going to be whether the jury believes TLM’s account of the sexual assault. Because that also ties into the motive for the crime in the first place. Victoria was found without any of her clothing from the waist down. That speaks for itself IMO. I hope and pray that they do see through the smoke and mirror show that I believe the defence is trying to create here. And it sickens me that they are using the words and fears of the victim’s own mother to mount this defence. Nothing they have said so far makes sense to me in regards to MR’s actions that day. As I said, this defence is seriously lacking in common sense.

The only "engine" involved in this crime was the one in that Honda Civic. And the driving force behind that engine was MR. He could have put the brakes on that ride at any point. And he didn't.

As always, this is just my opinion.

Brilliant Kamille! Thank you kindly for your well thought out explanation. Just brilliant! :tyou:

 

[swedie]

I don't think this has been answered yet. If it has, my apologies.

The sexual assault charges weren't laid until June 2010, which was the same month that the decision was made to forego the preliminary hearing and go straight to trial.



http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20120116/michael-rafferty-pretrial-begins-120116/



http://www.thestar.com/news/article/818177--michael-rafferty-suspect-in-tori-stafford-death-goes-straight-to-trial

Would it take a year to get DNA evidence of a sexual assault?

The public was not aware of the sexual assault charged until January 16, 2012. MR's trial started March 5, 2012. I don't believe it would take a year for forensic DNA testing to be done. It's just that the wheels of justice turn ever so slowly. JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

The public was not aware of the sexual assault charged until January 16, 2012. MR's trial started March 5, 2012. I don't believe it would take a year for forensic DNA testing to be done. It's just that the wheels of justice turn ever so slowly. JMO

I realize that, but flipflop's question was, what was the date that the charges were added.

I have also heard that DNA testing generally takes 3 to 5 days. I wondered if anyone would know how long the waiting list is to get the evidence back from being tested.

 

[swedie]

I wish they would have been able to track where he had disposed of the backseat.

Something tells me MR more than likely disposed of some items in a lake at some point. TLM never spoke of anything to do with a lake during her testimony, therefore I wonder what if anything MR spilled to LE when he was arrested May 19th. :what:

It's highly believable MR had gone back some time after TLM's arrest on April 12/09, and located the items, or some of them from the dumpster at the car wash, and items they threw out along the roadways back to Woodstock.

I figure when the police came calling on May 15th, MR was shaking in his boots. He drove to some lake to dispose of evidence, including his car seat. If he didn't retrieve any of the items, I think he at least deposited his car seat in a lake. Why else would LE diving team be scouring lakes? :waitasec: And just coincidentally they lumped the lakes searches and car seat together in the same paragraph. The first sentence is a bit puzzling as it sounds like LE believed or had been told Tori was in a lake, which we now know is not true. JMHO

May 26, 2009
Meanwhile, investigators in Guelph shifted the focus of their search for Tori to a pair of lakes yesterday. Police diving teams were brought in to scour Belwood and Guelph Lakes. Police are also looking for the rear grey seat of the car Rafferty drove.

http://www.thespec.com/print/article/79705

 

[Oldsoul2]

Did the accused child abductor, rapist, murderer take a polygraph?

Interesting question, she did and passed when she claimed in that polygraph that it was not her who killed Tori, is she savvy enough to trick a polygraph because according to her testimony she was pretty dumb when it came to MR

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I realize that, but flipflop's question was, what was the date that the charges were added.

I have also heard that DNA testing generally takes 3 to 5 days. I wondered if anyone would know how long the waiting list is to get the evidence back from being tested.

I think that varies on factors such as whether or not the agency that has jurisdiction processes the evidence themselves or if they send it somewhere to be processed.

Here it seems like budget cuts have also had an impact on waiting times, I hope you all haven't been experiencing that kind of thing.

Have you tried going to the website of the agency responsible for doing those tests? The one time I found out the wait time for tox results I found it on the the county's website that had jurisdiction of the case.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Eta: see also post 382