Weekend Discussion Thread 3/24-26/2012

[Tugela]

Interesting question, she did and passed when she claimed in that polygraph that it was not her who killed Tori, is she savvy enough to trick a polygraph because according to her testimony she was pretty dumb when it came to MR

If she is a psychopath, yes, she could easily do that. A polygraph monitors physiological changes that happen with most people when they feel threatened, but if you feel justified and have no remorse, it will show you as being truthfull.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Apparently they have done a lot of research that proves that psychopaths cannot beat lie detector tests.

Psychopaths Can't Beat A Polygraph Test
http://polygraphreality.wordpress.com/2009/10/05/psychopaths-cant-beat-a-polygraph-test/

*
*

"The answer to that question is a resounding “No”.* Research scientists have published the results of experiments in journals such as Psychophysiology, The Journal of Applied Psychology, and The Journal of Research In Personality.* In all of these studies, we find that psychopaths and others with antisocial personalities are detected in their lies at the same rate as everybody else.* In fact, some of the physiological reactions of psychopaths are actually stronger than other people when taking a polygraph test."

 

[matou]

After the interview, police later learned, Rafferty spent the weekend contacting auto wreckers and rental agencies about getting another car. He also went to Masonville Place in London to get a new BlackBerry.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-murder-trial-gets-underway

So what if MR went back to Mount Forest before his arrest and after getting a new phone. He had a new blackberry that weekend. What if he brought that new BB with him and that also pinged out there? JMO

 

[puppyraiser]

Sounds like he went into "clean up" mode that weekend. Why would he need to replace his Blackberry? Perhaps there was something on it he was afraid he could not delete permanently, like photos, videos or text messages?

 

[scapa]

If in fact it was over a drug debt, seems it was punishment for the debt as opposed to collateral.

JMO

Wasn't this alleged drug debt pretty small? Like $600? I just can't see anyone risking a long sentence (child kidnapping) over an amount this small, even a tactical genius like TLM. Given the general and continuous drug-addledness of the major players, I wonder how important defining the actual motive is.

s

 

[~n/t~]

Wasn't this alleged drug debt pretty small? Like $600? I just can't see anyone risking a long sentence (child kidnapping) over an amount this small, even a tactical genius like TLM. Given the general and continuous drug-addledness of the major players, I wonder how important defining the actual motive is.

s

$400.00 according to Tara. Motive is not required or necessary in a trial but juries love to have one. :moo:

 

[nursebeeme]

peeps, we are discussing testimony and evidence thus far in the trial... please do not bump up old posts from past threads and discuss things that are not in evidence... thanks so much

 

[antiquegirl]

Wasn't this alleged drug debt pretty small? Like $600? I just can't see anyone risking a long sentence (child kidnapping) over an amount this small, even a tactical genius like TLM. Given the general and continuous drug-addledness of the major players, I wonder how important defining the actual motive is.

s

Actually, I believe TM said the drug debt was $400. However, given all her previous lies, I'm reluctant to believe anything she says. Early on, she denied there was any drug debt at all. She also claimed she hadn't done drugs since high school. There would be no way for LE to confirm or refute what the actual amount was. It's not as if there would be a written record of it and who would admit it and be trusted to tell the truth?

But I wouldn't assume that any amount would be too small to keep TLM from seeking revenge. After hearing her history as shown by the defence, I believe that it didn't take much to get her nose out of joint and would put nothing past her.

The motive for the kidnapping is extremely important here. It could very well establish whether or not a sexual assault actually took place. If the motive was for a drug debt owed to TLM (or revenge for the dog breeding snub), it puts the sexual one into question. The same thing applies if TLM wanted to gain favour with MTR by offering up a child for him and it was her idea. If there is no DNA evidence proving the sexual assault, defining a motive for the abduction could swing the verdict in another direction. More evidence needs to be seen for this, however, as currently it's just TLM's word as to why Tori was taken. (Even the lack of clothing on Tori could be explained as staging, or TLM doing the sexual assault.) It all boils down to raising reasonable doubt.

JMO

 

[giantalkinghead]

Wow, wow, wow... I initially found this website during the time that little Victoria was missing and haven't visited here in many years - up until the trial started and I remembered this site so I revisited to see what is going on here.... wow !

The most important thing to remember is that under either circumstance of her death... be it by sexual desire or drug debt... either... it is just plain horrible that sweet little Victoria had to pay the ultimate price. There is NO justice ever that can repay her.... none.

After reading up on the posts... at least as much as time will allow me to, I have a few thoughts and lots of questions. It's really apparent to me anyhow, that there are a number of supporters of each sides making posts here on the board that are more than likely very close to people involved in the case. Time and lots more evidence is needed, in my mind anyway, to determine who is in fact the guilty party.

1) IMO - TLM has decided to claim the death of Victoria ( whether she did it or not ) for her own purpose. I figure she is looking to get herself declared a Dangerous offender. Her life never amounted to anything from day one. She doesn't ever want to be released from prison - she has no where to ever go and has no problem what so ever in staying right where she is for the rest of her life. She could be scared of being released - how would she support herself - who may decide to take revenge on her... it's just plain easier on her to stay where she is. The attack on the other prisoner would also help her in a quest for Dangerous offender status.

2) The drug debt theory does make some sense to me. The debt could have been to someone higher up the drug chain. It is possible that TM, JG, TLM, CM MR were all involved in the drug trade together - with money owing further up. IMO - thus the phone calls while they had TS in the car and the visit for more drugs. Who knows there could have been calls made from the drug house on another phone other than MR's Bberry.

3) The fact that MR didn't admit to the murder during his initial police interview could have been because he didn't do it... simple... he had, at that point, no knowledge that TLM would turn on him and try to implicate him as the murderer. I can't understand why if there was any chance of DNA evidence... he wouldn't have gotten rid of the gym bag ? or burnt his car.... makes no sense.

4) What was the turning point that make TLM decide to admit to police of the murder? Did police play her "boyfriend's" audio interview with police for her? During the interview they ask if she is his girlfriend... he laughs and with a sarcastic voice... says... she not my girlfriend. This could have been enough to set her off to want revenge against MR and bring him down with her... thus the statement in court that " I'm not the only guilty party here " He also talks about other girls during the interview. Maybe as far as he was concerned they were connected for the purpose of drugs - or sex for drugs... or friends with benefits... who knows... maybe she thought it was more.

Time and DNA will tell more..... until then .... wow.... it is really sad how evil people can get.

 

[Oldsoul2]

After the interview, police later learned, Rafferty spent the weekend contacting auto wreckers and rental agencies about getting another car. He also went to Masonville Place in London to get a new BlackBerry.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-murder-trial-gets-underway

So what if MR went back to Mount Forest before his arrest and after getting a new phone. He had a new blackberry that weekend. What if he brought that new BB with him and that also pinged out there? JMO

Don't quote me but I heard that when you take the battery out of the phone you can't be pinged. I know with some of the new smartphones, I have one, you cannot take the battery out period. IMO if he wanted to change his blackberry, it's probably because when he was in the area, he was pinged to the registration of that phone.

 

[Wondergirl]

Wow, wow, wow... I initially found this website during the time that little Victoria was missing and haven't visited here in many years - up until the trial started and I remembered this site so I revisited to see what is going on here.... wow !

The most important thing to remember is that under either circumstance of her death... be it by sexual desire or drug debt... either... it is just plain horrible that sweet little Victoria had to pay the ultimate price. There is NO justice ever that can repay her.... none.

After reading up on the posts... at least as much as time will allow me to, I have a few thoughts and lots of questions. It's really apparent to me anyhow, that there are a number of supporters of each sides making posts here on the board that are more than likely very close to people involved in the case. Time and lots more evidence is needed, in my mind anyway, to determine who is in fact the guilty party.

1) IMO - TLM has decided to claim the death of Victoria ( whether she did it or not ) for her own purpose. I figure she is looking to get herself declared a Dangerous offender. Her life never amounted to anything from day one. She doesn't ever want to be released from prison - she has no where to ever go and has no problem what so ever in staying right where she is for the rest of her life. She could be scared of being released - how would she support herself - who may decide to take revenge on her... it's just plain easier on her to stay where she is. The attack on the other prisoner would also help her in a quest for Dangerous offender status.

2) The drug debt theory does make some sense to me. The debt could have been to someone higher up the drug chain. It is possible that TM, JG, TLM, CM MR were all involved in the drug trade together - with money owing further up. IMO - thus the phone calls while they had TS in the car and the visit for more drugs. Who knows there could have been calls made from the drug house on another phone other than MR's Bberry.

3) The fact that MR didn't admit to the murder during his initial police interview could have been because he didn't do it... simple... he had, at that point, no knowledge that TLM would turn on him and try to implicate him as the murderer. I can't understand why if there was any chance of DNA evidence... he wouldn't have gotten rid of the gym bag ? or burnt his car.... makes no sense.

4) What was the turning point that make TLM decide to admit to police of the murder? Did police play her "boyfriend's" audio interview with police for her? During the interview they ask if she is his girlfriend... he laughs and with a sarcastic voice... says... she not my girlfriend. This could have been enough to set her off to want revenge against MR and bring him down with her... thus the statement in court that " I'm not the only guilty party here " He also talks about other girls during the interview. Maybe as far as he was concerned they were connected for the purpose of drugs - or sex for drugs... or friends with benefits... who knows... maybe she thought it was more.

Time and DNA will tell more..... until then .... wow.... it is really sad how evil people can get.

Good post, thanks. I agree with some of the things you say, lol.

BBM: Just wanted to point out a possible answer regarding him not getting rid of the gym bag, burning his car etc.

We don't know yet just how large the forensic sample of blood is from the Gym Bag. It may not have been readily visible to the naked eye.

It sounds like MTR did indeed start the process of getting rid of his car that weekend, and had already gotten rid of the back seat. I wonder if there was any forensic evidence of Tori in the FRONT SEAT(S), as I was sure I read something about TLM stating that she was there also.

Also, if you followed the case of Russell Williams at all, he was so arrogant, and sure of himself (or just plain psychotic) that he continued to wear the very boots that he wore when he abducted and murdered Jessica Lloyd, and in fact wore them right to his interview with Police (during which he ended up confessing).

Just sayin'.

 

[KMouse]

I don't buy the drug debt theory. Never did.
I think when somebody is seeking revenge there is a series of escalation that would lead up to violence. We haven't heard anybody come forward and say there was an arguement between TLM and TM/JG. We haven't heard anybody come forward and say that anybody had made any threats. We haven't heard anything about a situation where TLM goes to TM's house to collect the debt. If the defence is going to throw out the drug debt idea then they need something to back it up.

 

[giantalkinghead]

Good post, thanks. I agree with some of the things you say, lol.

BBM: Just wanted to point out a possible answer regarding him not getting rid of the gym bag, burning his car etc.

We don't know yet just how large the forensic sample of blood is from the Gym Bag. It may not have been readily visible to the naked eye.

It sounds like MTR did indeed start the process of getting rid of his car that weekend, and had already gotten rid of the back seat. I wonder if there was any forensic evidence of Tori in the FRONT SEAT(S), as I was sure I read something about TLM stating that she was there also.

Also, if you followed the case of Russell Williams at all, he was so arrogant, and sure of himself (or just plain psychotic) that he continued to wear the very boots that he wore when he abducted and murdered Jessica Lloyd, and in fact wore them right to his interview with Police (during which he ended up confessing).
Just sayin'.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on my orignal post. As far as your comments bolded by me above... This could very well be true, however it hasn't been brought up in court as evidence yet through testimony with TLM -- so far, IMO the Crown needs a whole lot more than her testimony to get a guilty verdict - so "IF" in fact MR is guilty - let's hope that the Crown has DNA that cannot be explained away. "IF" MR "IS" guilty... the worse thing that could happen at this point is that he gets away with a lower convicition, or still worse some sort of a mistrial.

Also regarding the arrgogance issue you brought up... when I listen to the tape of MR... I just don't hear arrogance at all - granted I do hear and understand that there were lies... but not arrogance. He was trying to cover his involvement... involvment to what degree is the question. Don't get me wrong... cleaning up after the murder of a little girl is way, way beyond being ok... but, it in itself isn't first degree murder. He certainly was acting... to cover what is the question. Murder, sexual assault, hiding the murder and/or drug involvement ????

 

[KMouse]

I wonder at what point LE tipped their hand to MTR in letting him know he was a suspect, and what his stories were then (i.e. are there other audio interviews prior to him retaining Hal Mattson?)

When they showed up at house to interview him about "that girl that is missing", TLM, and his whereabouts on the day "that girl" went missing.

All the police got was vague answers and MR trying to distance himself from TLM.

 

[fats]

I'm not being silly, I honestly don't know what the defence's theory is. I've heard different versions.

We know their theory is TLM was the mastermind.

What is their theory? That MR wasn't there? That MR was there but he turned around at the spot where Tori was murdered and didn't notice anything until it was too late? Where did he go? Take a whizz as some suggested here? Other theories suggested a safe house? Did he think they were taking Tori to a safe house?

Seriously. What is their theory or are they throwing everything on the wall like overcooked spaghetti and see which ones stick?

I have faith the jury will use common sense. He was there. He saw a murdered child and didn't do anything except help her cover it up ?? He lied to the cops in the interview.

Normal people don't do that. They see a crime, they call 911. The fact that he didn't have priors can go either way, imo. It can help the defence but it can also help the prosecution. With no priors, why was he so afraid to report a crime?

I've watched and followed many cases and one thing that "most" jurors do is use their common sense. As a matter of fact, I watched one last night. It was a 48 hour mystery re run of Mike Oakes trial. He claimed self defense but when it came down to verdict time, the jury came back with guilty. The evidence presented showed he disposed of the victim's body. One juror said after deliberating for 3 days, one thing that always came back...if it was self defence, why not call 911? Instead, he got rid of the body (still not found). It makes no sense.

Same thing will happen in this case, imo. The jury will realize that regardless of what he did and/or didn't do (all evidence not presented yet), it will come down to : Why did he not save Tori? Why did he not call 911? If he was not involved, why did he help cover up a murder?

It's called common sense!

HIS RECORD
The fact that MR has no criminal record or "priors" is neither here nor there with the jury IMO as there is always a first time being caught. Many people don't ever get caught.

BEHAVIOR

So many red flags here from letting Tori into his car accompanied by a known junkie with criminal past, to leaving town with TLM and Victoria to "helping dispose of a body" and to not leading police to the whereabouts of the body. TLM is a sicko but she did lead the police to the body--not giving her too many props here but it's better than not helping.

Also he does have a feminine voice however that's here nor there. But his track record with women is very unstable based on the # of relationships her had inside one year--that he's admitting to.

OPP Interview

What can I say--Liar Liar pants on fire all throughout the interview--bearing his mind what his defense is proclaiming. Especially casting doubt on the TM when he knew full well his involvement. He was jumpy in the interview--He reminded me of an interview posted on Youtube of Paul Bernardo in his arrogance and manipulation.



OPP Interview

 

[KMouse]

With the defence having heard this interview I cannot understand why they would try and paint MR as a poor manipulated doofus who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Ardy]

I don't know why people would be surprised that MTR wouldn't suddenly confess during the interview.

Why would someone trying to cover up ANY involvement do that?

Of course he was going to maintain that he knew nothing about it. It is not like he could say........now that you ask me,I did happen to be there when it all happened........but it wasn't my fault.....and expect to walk away.

Even under the best circumstances for him........he was already guilty of numerous crimes.

 

[Oldsoul2]

With the defence having heard this interview I cannot understand why they would try and paint MR as a poor manipulated doofus who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

When you are presented with the "golden" oppportunity to have a confession from a witness who was there with your client, who does not have a record and this person has a rap sheet, history of violence etc who better to pin it on with that "theory" she bullied him, she coax him, she masterminded the whole plan etc...IMO there's a serious problem with that, he lied and she confessed. His lies have already been discovered, he was in fact there (he denied it) he knew Tori was killed because he was there (he denied it) and so on and so on. Where does anyone get that it's only TLM who's the liar? YOU DON"T LIE UNLESS YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE, or you fear the consequences of the truth to which will reflex back on you, she did not pin it on him and he knew she wouldn't so lie, deny it why not. If he wasn't involved, there would be no proof, no blood, no dna, no evidence, NO CASE. They HAVE A CONFESSION. A normal human being who could get caught up in this scenerio would RUN from that car not walk away and come back and certainly not wait for LE to arrive at his house at a later date and than lie about it. If there's ever been a more telling admission of guilt, I haven't seen it.

 

[JayFriend]

I don't know why people would be surprised that MTR wouldn't suddenly confess during the interview. <snip>

It's not like he was asked outright, "Did you do this?"

From the interview transcript :

"...back on the eighth (8th) of April two thousand nine (2009) and as part of our investigation we’ve bin interviewing all kinds of people and ah your name has has come up just as a person to contact now do you know anything about the case at all have you heard anything or..."

bin [sic] Really?

Anyway, it's left pretty wide open what information he might volunteer. The less accusatory the interviewer is, the more likely MR would have his guard down and let something slip. He's just one of hundreds being interviewed by a cop from out-of-town.

 

[myzzy]

Afternoon everyone, just catching up but thought about the speculation on why/when he tried getting rid of his.

Personally getting rid of a car here is beyond simple, call a junk yard they will come out that day give you $100 and then tow the vehical away to crush it, as u sign a waver that the vehical is being demolished and will not be resold..

I have done this 2x in the last couple of years for my junker cars, 6 weeks had passed before questions even came into the pitcure about MR, if im correct.

Now why would someone who raped/murdered/kidnapped a little girl not go and quickly get rid of the vehical ( either burn, dump in a lake, scrap, sell ect ) asap not 6 weeks later and after detectives are on his radar.

I personally would be getting rid of everything from the night of a murder if i was going to hide it and try and not to get caught. ( Anyone who wanted to get away with murder i would think would act the same way ) right down to personal belonging on me and in a vehical i was in, I would no longer have in my possession anything from that night ( but then again i would never be in this position)

Anyways just some thoughts