weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[swedie]

But a life sentence is a life sentence, it's only that they become eligible for parole after 25 years. Lots of nasty criminals in Canada have been there a lot longer than 25 years. Many rot and die in prison (Clifford Olson, Wayne Boden, Dale Nelson and Roch Theriault come to mind).

It's discussed in myth #2 & #10 on the Parole Board of Canada's website!

http://pbc-clcc.gc.ca/infocntr/myths....shtml#mythtwo

2. Myth: Parole is automatically granted when an inmate becomes eligible for parole consideration.

Reality: Parole is not automatically granted when inmates become eligible.

Because an offender is eligible for parole does not mean that it will be granted. In fact, PBC denies full parole to approximately six out of ten offenders at their first parole review date.

The law gives PBC absolute discretion in decisions to grant or deny parole. In arriving at a decision, Board Members consider the risk that the offender may present to society if released and determine if, and to what extent, that risk can be managed in the community. The protection of society is the overriding consideration in any release decision.

10. Myth: A life sentence in Canada means that offenders only have to serve 25 years before they are released.

Reality : A life sentence means life. Lifers will never again enjoy total freedom.

Offenders, convicted of first-degree murder, serve life as a minimum sentence with their first parole eligibility set by law at 25 years. For offenders convicted of second-degree murder, the judge may set parole eligibility at a point between 10 and 25 years.

Lifers can only be released from prison if granted parole by the Board. Unlike most inmates who are serving a sentence of fixed length, i.e. 2, 10, or 20 years, lifers are not entitled to statutory release. If granted parole they will, for the rest of their lives, remain subject to the conditions of parole and the supervision of a CSC parole officer. Parole may be revoked and offenders returned to prison at any time if they violate the conditions of parole or commit a new offence.

Not all lifers will be granted parole. Some may never be released on parole because they continue to represent too great a risk to re-offend.

:tyou: Very helpful information KM. Much appreciated.

 

[flipflop]

okay I am going to ask a very dumb question here now:blushing::blushing::blushing:...since she had pleaded guilty in 2010 and received her 25 year sentence (which as you say could give her the chance of the faint hope clause) now because she has turned it all around and admitted to LE and the court that she was the one who really murdered Tori...well I guess my dumb question now is..can her original sentence be overturned and be re-sentenced or does it mean that the original sentence stands but for the record her admission of being the actual killer be duly noted in order for the faint hope clause to not appy to her down the road.... hope I have posted this clearly....:maddening:

JMO Her sentence was 25 years with no chance of parole. She can't get anything worse than this. .

 

[Hello_Kitty]

So according to the defence, MR turned down the "gift" but agreed to drive her to a safehouse as she was being held for a drug debt. Driving a child anywhere but home in this case is kidnapping. This proves that he is guilty of kidnapping!!!

That's what I was trying to point out in my earlier post Flip.

 

[Kamille]

I have now re-read my post to which this replies several times and still have no idea what you're referring to. I was discussing only the "relationship" between TLM and MTR. Nowhere do I see any mention of other women or disrespect to anyone.

If anything, I feel sorry for all of the women (except TLM) who got mixed up with MTR. They got a raw deal at the time and continue to get one with being forced to testify in court, adding to the horror and humiliation. That only two of them (so far) got anonymity from the media is unfair. IMO, none of their full names should have been allowed to be published. They could have used initials, as we do here, or first names and last initials. ITA that they will never get over this.

JMO

His relationship with TLM spanned over a couple of other relationships prior to the murder as well. So those other two women deserve our sympathy for the way they were played by MR but not TLM? He picked her up at a pizza shop. Called her a pretty little number. He took her driving and had sex with her in his car. He left her his number. She did not call him. He pursued her. She never went to his house, he always went to hers. And picked her up. And took her out driving, shopping, to the movies, to a motel. She was 18yrs old. He was 28.

While I absolutely despise what TLM did as her part in this crime, I do believe MR was playing on her emotions and manipulating her. To treat her as less than human while trying to figure out what would drive someone to do what she did is unfair and disrepectful IMO. It's just as disrespectful to her, because she was certainly another "dating" victim, as it is to the others.

The Crown would not have put all those women through the trama of testifying if they were not trying to point out how he was using and manipulating women prior to and after the crime. Everything he said to them was a form of manipulation since everything was lies. It was just a bonus that a lot of his lies revolved around Victoria's disappearance as well.

So it's not such a stretch that he was able to manipulate TLM, a massively drug addicted and broken teenager who had nothing to look forward to in her life until she met him.

MOO

 

[tmhco]

This is just a shout out to all of you who are keeping me in check! (kinda in check). I know we still have a long way to and I may change my mind, but I don't want to EVER feel the way I felt when the Casey Anthony verdict was read. I must be prepared for anything! JMO

 

[Flowercb]

okay I am going to ask a very dumb question here now:blushing::blushing::blushing:...since she had pleaded guilty in 2010 and received her 25 year sentence (which as you say could give her the chance of the faint hope clause) now because she has turned it all around and admitted to LE and the court that she was the one who really murdered Tori...well I guess my dumb question now is..can her original sentence be overturned and be re-sentenced or does it mean that the original sentence stands but for the record her admission of being the actual killer be duly noted in order for the faint hope clause to not appy to her down the road.... hope I have posted this clearly....:maddening:

She probably won't get parole and would spend all 25 years in prison.:moo:

 

[Macright]

JMO Her sentence was 25 years with no chance of parole. She can't get anything worse than this. .

I understand but I would hate for the records not to show and give credit to TLM as the one who murdered TS... rather than being an accessory to the murder.... just would like to see all the T's crossed and the I's dotted...IYKWIM:moo::moo:

 

[~n/t~]

JMO Her sentence was 25 years with no chance of parole. She can't get anything worse than this. .

I believe she was sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole for 25 years. After 25 years, she'll be eligible for parole which hopefully will be denied. She's dying in prison, imo.

 

[snoofer]

TLM did not "confess". Det Smythe had to cajole it out of her in bits and pieces. If her redeemable quality is that she attempted to assit LE to find TS and gave her version of what happened then that is her only redeeming quality.

Please remember that she was sentenced under false pretences - the |Statement of Facts in her sentencing did not acknowledge that she is the one that murdered Tori.

Why? Because if that came out no faint hope clause for her ever ... and she would be designated a dangerous offender - never to see the outside ever again.
She knows how the system works and she is clever, conivng and self-serving enough to use it to her advantage and to punish MR for having other "girlfriends" as well.

JMO

Excellent point. Have been calling it a confession but in actuality it was an interview/interrogation.:moo:

 

[snoofer]

She probably won't get parole and would spend all 25 years in prison.:moo:

but after 25 years is it considered time served and out she goes?:what::twocents:

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I understand but I would hate for the records not to show and give credit to TLM as the one who murdered TS... rather than being an accessory to the murder.... just would like to see all the T's crossed and the I's dotted...IYKWIM:moo::moo:

It doesn't matter if TLM was the one who actually swung the hammer or not, she is guilty either way. Just like MTR is guilty regardless of whether or not he swung the hammer if he knew that it was a kidnapping that would likely result in Troy's death at the time she was abducted.

 

[swedie]

I agree he told lies, even said that in my comment. The lies he told though, were a result of the lies TLM told.

Just think, if TLM had not lied to Tori in order to lure her away, Tori would most likely be alive and this trial would not be taking place.

TLM told the first and most damaging lie.

What I'm failing to understand is the importance placed on the lies MR told in his personal dating life. Those lies did not hurt anyone, whereas that one lie TLM told to Tori, hurt many, and the lies MR told to the police after, are the result of that one crucial lie.

MOO

Oh so all these women he found and used on POF where not affected by MR's lies? They are not affected by the thought they had contact with an alleged pedo, child murder? <modsnip> IMHO. We had nervous, scared women testifying against him who more than likely did not want to be there, their names released into the MSM. And MR's lies did not affect them? :floorlaugh:

Bottom line is he lied to LE from the get go and continues to lie by not telling LE what happened that horrific day and getting rid of evidence. For all those lies and cover ups, he is guilty. I again feel confident the jurors will feel this way also. A worse liar then TLM because at least she has come forward with the truth (yes :moo while MR continues to deny, deny, deny and his defense is trying to make him out to be that of a clueless bimbo who took a strange child for a two hour drive on the floor of his car just because he like zipping around town and the countryside. But what a sweetheart he must be because he help TLM cover up the murder, nice guy. Many here are failing to take that bait. Gives me more confidence the jurors are like minded with the majority here. :moo:

 

[snoofer]

It doesn't matter if TLM was the one who actually swung the hammer or not, she is guilty either way. Just like MTR is guilty regardless of whether or not he swung the hammer if he knew that it was a kidnapping that would likely result in Troy's death at the time she was abducted.

what is the point of this trial? Because it is MTR's right and this is all an exercise in futility for him? :what: Wow. Expensive.:twocents:

I wonder what the statistics are on those who plead compared to those who go to trial and are still found guilty. I wonder what the statistics say about which group gets the more servere sentence or is it all equal in the end.:twocents:

 

[~n/t~]

It doesn't matter if TLM was the one who actually swung the hammer or not, she is guilty either way. Just like MTR is guilty regardless of whether or not he swung the hammer if he knew that it was a kidnapping that would likely result in Troy's death at the time she was abducted.

Exactly. It doesn't matter if she did or not. She pleaded guilty and is serving her sentence. The accused opted to stand trial and will get convicted and sentenced and will face the same penalty. A life sentence. :moo:

 

[brighidin]

This is just a shout out to all of you who are keeping me in check! (kinda in check). I know we still have a long way to and I may change my mind, but I don't want to EVER feel the way I felt when the Casey Anthony verdict was read. I must be prepared for anything! JMO

Yeah, that was a real kick in the arse!

 

[swedie]

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, as I am mine, but considering the fact that Victoria died as a result of that lie, it makes a difference to me.

MOO

IMHO Tori died because MR wanted a little girl to sexually assault and was too chicken to get one on his own. Plus he needed someone to blame once caught. Whose lying now and won't confess? Certainly not TLM. HTH :moo:

 

[antiquegirl]

That is true, but why did she think that MTR would be interested in sexually abusing a child? The defence didn't say that TLM took Tory so she could abuse her, the defence said that TLM took Tory as a gift to MTR so he could molest her.

Can anyone show me any kind of data that indicates it is common for child sex abuse survivors to abduct children for their partners to molest when that partner has said nothing to indicate they are interested in molesting a child? Because :moo: that is very different than molesting a child on one's own, turning one's back while their child is raped or giving a child to someone who has asked for that.

Are there any missing children that TLM gave as gifts to her other boyfriends, or was MTR special? If MTR was "special" it would make the most sense to me that he was because none of TLM's other boyfriends expressed interest in something so hideous.

If one wants to argue that TLM has never offered a child to a boyfriend before, then the same argument can be made that MTR has no record of having molested children before. Neither has been proven.

I fail to understand why people want a precedent for everything. Yes, having statistics or a history of similar behaviour would bolster an argument, but it's not necessary. Everyone has to start somewhere. Or, if you prefer, there's a first time for everything.

Each person is unique, as is the way his/her mind works. How and when impulses or whims become reality would vary from one human to the next.

JMO

 

[brighidin]

His relationship with TLM spanned over a couple of other relationships prior to the murder as well. So those other two women deserve our sympathy for the way they were played by MR but not TLM? He picked her up at a pizza shop. Called her a pretty little number. He took her driving and had sex with her in his car. He left her his number. She did not call him. He pursued her. She never went to his house, he always went to hers. And picked her up. And took her out driving, shopping, to the movies, to a motel. She was 18yrs old. He was 28.

While I absolutely despise what TLM did as her part in this crime, I do believe MR was playing on her emotions and manipulating her. To treat her as less than human while trying to figure out what would drive someone to do what she did is unfair and disrepectful IMO. It's just as disrespectful to her, because she was certainly another "dating" victim, as it is to the others.

The Crown would not have put all those women through the trama of testifying if they were not trying to point out how he was using and manipulating women prior to and after the crime. Everything he said to them was a form of manipulation since everything was lies. It was just a bonus that a lot of his lies revolved around Victoria's disappearance as well.

So it's not such a stretch that he was able to manipulate TLM, a massively drug addicted and broken teenager who had nothing to look forward to in her life until she met him.

MOO

Very well said, Kamille. Thank you.

 

[dilbert]

The puppy thing CAN NOT be verified AT ALL. I know it is shocking but it could have been a story that she has accepted to go with since it ONLY came out at the same time as her NEW VERSION of events r.e. Tori.

"She's not like that anymore." Kicking and getting into a fight with another inmate is really NOT that surprising and shocking at all. She kicked a person while they were down, it is what someone would do in a fight IMO. It's typical not atypical of someone in a fight. A prison guard would likely testify to seeing that type of fighting behaviour as not unusual in a fight, IMO.

The lies she told to police were likely what Rafferty told her to say to police. BRING TORI HOME was on Rafferty's MYSPACE. WE'RE PRAYING FOR TORI. I think that's pretty demented. HE could have brought Tori home. Instead, he was shacking up with multiple women up until just before the date of his arrest. What happened to his car seat? What happened to his knife blade? What happened to his white shirt and other clothes from that day? In my opinion, they are BOTH culpable of the death of this poor innocent girl. JMO MOO

She ADMITTED to her GODMOTHER in 2012 that she put the puppy in the microwave and LIED about it after, she ADMITTED on the stand that she put the dog in the microwave. Why would she lie about that if she didn't do it? That's enough for me to prove she did it.

Lets be fair, if MR admitted to someone that he put a puppy in the microwave, even though there were no other proof he did it, you and a whole bunch of other people would believe it to be true. So why not believe TLM did that?

Regarding TLM fighting in prison, that is not surprising to me that SHE did that, after all we've heard of her propensity for violence. She lied on the stand when she said she had changed, when really she hadn't changed at all. She wasn't fighting to protect herself, she manipulated the prison peer to peer program in order to get the one inmate (that said bad things about her) alone so she could beat her up. Act of revenge? Oh yes.

Regarding the last part of your post, I am not denying MR lied to cover up his involvement in the crime, he lied just as much about it as TLM did. No doubt about that. My original post on this subject was referring to the lies he told all his "dates", I don't see how those lies are relevant to his guilt/innocence in this case.

What's the point of Derstine even bringing this up anyway? To rationalize why Rafferty raped Tori? I don't get it. JMO

That's very interesting that he would bring this up considering, in the same suggestion, Derstine said MR declined the offer. Maybe he brought it up because it's the truth?

MOO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I'm pages behind but wanted to address this. Why does the defense have to prove motive? Even if it was a drug debt (which I totally do not believe), how does justify kidnapping, raping and murdering an 8 year old little girl?

I seriously don't get how that would let the accused child killer off the hook. :waitasec:

They're trying to prove that MTR didn't know that she was being kidnapped for a drug debt when TLM put Tori in the car. So, to them that justifies him driving her out of Woodstock with TLM. Also they are saying that MTR was offered Tori as a gift and that he refused.

I think their theory sucks, I wouldn't even drive a child I didn't know to purchase a baggie of percs. (Not that I buy illegal drugs)