weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[Wondergirl]

I'm having a difficult time figuring out how people can so easily discount TLM's lies. The lies she told were HUGE, potentially life altering lies. She lied and said someone brutally killed a child, when it was, in fact, SHE who killed that child. Compare that to MR's lies to the women he dated and conversed with online and I fail so see how that makes him more evil than her.

She didn't tell just two lies either, she lied to the police numerous times.
At first she denied any and all involvement, that's a lie. How many times was she asked about her involvement and how many lies did she tell in order to throw the suspicion off of her. More lies. The accusation of rape could be another potentially life altering lie, as well as the lie she told about who's idea it was to buy the hammer and garbage bags.

She LIED to Tori in order to lure her to the car, she LIED to her family after she nuked the little puppy...LIES LIES and MORE LIES.

The most telling lie, IMO, is the lie she told on the stand while Derstine was reading all those letters she had written in juvie, letters full of violent thoughts and ideas about hurting people. She LIED on the stand, UNDER OATH and stated that was a long time ago, she's not like that anymore. Another lie. The very next day Derstine presented information showing TLM had violently assaulted a fellow inmate THIS YEAR!!, as well as statements she made to her godmother, that she had no remorse and would kill again.

How anyone can even begin to compare the lies she told to the ones MR told about his career choice, I'll never understand.
Yes, MR lied to the police too, but so did TLM, and her lies IMO were far more damaging than the ones MR told.

MOO

So, your interpretation of TLM's testimony, is that, everything is a lie, except the part where she says she killed Tori?

Is that correct?

 

[SFB73]

I think there are a couple of issues with a drug debt theory in this case, first if the alleged drug debt was $400 it's a paltry sum, would going to jail for abduction of a child really be worth $400 ? Perhaps in the world of low level street dealers... But even then I'd have a hard time thinking that it would unless their minds were so warped and so psychotic they could rationalize it. I think a warped mind in this case is a given.... So maybe it is a great defense curve ball to take the limelight of their client, but it won't float!

Secondly, if a child was taken as a form of ransom, there usually would be an outreach by the abductors for their ransom. Given a 400.00 alleged debt, I'm quite certain anyone, even those people without the financial means would do whatever it took to scrape up the 400.00 to pay a ransom debt for the safe return of their loved one. I, as with most of us here with the means to do so would gladly offer up 400 bucks to any family in a situation like this. This wasn't a masterfully thought out Multimillion dollar ransom case... It was only raised by the defense to try to make the jury think there may be more to the case than meets the eye...

Finally the biggest hole in the drug debt theory would be the fact that VS unfortunately was murdered within a few hours of her abduction. More than likely murdered even before a full scale police involved search had been initiated, the rapid series of events from 3:30pm onward doesn't suggest a ransom and why drive so far away from people your trying to collect the so called debt.

So in the end if it was 4 dollar debt a 400 dollar debt or a 4 million dollar debt, it really doesn't matter as the only thing that matters is the fact that MR put a child in his car without permission of said childs parents (from that point on all bets are off and in my opinion is guilty right there) drove an hour away to a secluded area, where VS body was found several weeks later buried under a rock pile. What really happened from the time the door on the beat up Honda civic slammed shut in a secluded nursing home parking lot until VS was placed in a makeshift stone pile grave may never be fully known as its TLM story vs the story of the defence. While forensics couldn't link MR to a sex assault TLM testimony and common sense in my mind and I'm sure in the minds of the jurors does.

What is known for fact is that the people who were involved with that poor child during her final hours of life came back to town and joined in the search and went about their lives as nothing was different, clearly the actions of people trying to cover up their crimes.

If MR was so innocent and not involved he had many opportunities for an out, these opportunities never were taken. Even If he did stumble upon the murder scene and if he had no part in that or a sex assault, he could have dialed 911 right away, a good defense lawyer probably could have turned his role in the abduction around, Ohhh but wait perhaps had he done that then an investigation would have turned up physical evidence. Instead he opted to help clean up, conceal a body and drive back to town and cary on life as normal. All clearly the steps any innocent rational person would have done. Right?

 

[snoofer]

Maybe he really wanted to abduct a little girl and raise her as his own?

if that was the case; it didn't quite work out that way :what::twocents:

 

[Jezbel]

Gosh, I never said the article said that at all? In any case I haven't seen one whit of EVIDENCE that there was a sexual assault by MR (and no, TLMs word doesn't count for anything in my book) so now I am off the sexual assault topic because it has become so ridiculous without any proof whatsoever and its relevance (or non-relevance) IMO will become readily apparent once the defence has its say.

Just saying ...

To me the fact the Tori was naked apart from her shirt coupled with the fact that her blood was found with sperm is evidence of sexual assault. I cannot think of any good reason as to why she would be only in her shirt and also how her blood had traces of sperm. I think the chance the her blood landed on the exact spot where sperm was is very very minimal.

My opinion only of course, but to me that IS evidence.

 

[snoofer]

I think there are a couple of issues with a drug debt theory in this case, first if the alleged drug debt was $400 it's a paltry sum, would going to jail for abduction of a child really be worth $400 ? Perhaps in the world of low level street dealers... But even then I'd have a hard time thinking that it would unless their minds were so warped and so psychotic they could rationalize it. I think a warped mind in this case is a given.... So maybe it is a great defense curve ball to take the limelight of their client, but it won't float!

Secondly, if a child was taken as a form of ransom, there usually would be an outreach by the abductors for their ransom. Given a 400.00 alleged debt, I'm quite certain anyone, even those people without the financial means would do whatever it took to scrape up the 400.00 to pay a ransom debt for the safe return of their loved one. I, as with most of us here with the means to do so would gladly offer up 400 bucks to any family in a situation like this. This wasn't a masterfully thought out Multimillion dollar ransom case... It was only raised by the defense to try to make the jury think there may be more to the case than meets the eye...

Finally the biggest hole in the drug debt theory would be the fact that VS unfortunately was murdered within a few hours of her abduction. More than likely murdered even before a full scale police involved search had been initiated, the rapid series of events from 3:30pm onward doesn't suggest a ransom and why drive so far away from people your trying to collect the so called debt.

So in the end if it was 4 dollar debt a 400 dollar debt or a 4 million dollar debt, it really doesn't matter as the only thing that matters is the fact that MR put a child in his car without permission of said childs parents (from that point on all bets are off and in my opinion is guilty right there) drove an hour away to a secluded area, where VS body was found several weeks later buried under a rock pile. What really happened from the time the door on the beat up Honda civic slammed shut in a secluded nursing home parking lot until VS was placed in a makeshift stone pile grave may never be fully known as its TLM story vs the story of the defence. While forensics couldn't link MR to a sex assault TLM testimony and common sense in my mind and I'm sure in the minds of the jurors does.

What is known for fact is that the people who were involved with that poor child during her final hours of life came back to town and joined in the search and went about their lives as nothing was different, clearly the actions of people trying to cover up their crimes.

If MR was so innocent and not involved he had many opportunities for an out, these opportunities never were taken. Even If he did stumble upon the murder scene and if he had no part in that or a sex assault, he could have dialed 911 right away, a good defense lawyer probably could have turned his role in the abduction around, Ohhh but wait perhaps had he done that then an investigation would have turned up physical evidence. Instead he opted to help clean up, conceal a body and drive back to town and cary on life as normal. All clearly the steps any innocent rational person would have done. Right?

:seeya: good post!:twocents:

 

[antiquegirl]

And statistic show pedos and rapists are sexual deviants and are not normal.

Wow I would think the majority of us are falling behind in life if there's a first time for EVERYTHING? :what: So many horrible things in life I chose not to make them a first time for excellent reasons. What a scary thought process if one has to experience everything in life. :moo:

(RSBM)

I'm afraid you have misunderstood this common expression. It does not mean that everything has to happen. It means that for everything that has happened, there had to be a first time. HTH

 

[Wondergirl]

JMO...It makes no difference in the world who told the first lie. They are both pathetic compulsive liars. MR lied for 6 weeks covering his azz in the involvement in the kidnapping and murder of VS as he went on with his daily life, talking to others about praying for VS and looking for VS and telling people that he was sure she would be ok when infact he knew her bloodied and battered body was buried under rocks where he left her....he is SICK SICK SICK!!!!! as is TLM!!!!!

Exactly!

Both psychopaths.

The whole link applies to both of them, but, here are a few of the important ones, most obvious, IMO.

I wonder how much remorse MTR has expressed for his involvement in the crime. Does he regret his actions? Does he focus blame on others?

Does he admit any responsibility or remorse to his friends and family?

Doubtful.

JMO

Psychopaths have a total lack of empathy and remorse, and have very shallow emotions. They are generally regarded as callous, selfish, dishonest, arrogant, aggressive, impulsive, irresponsible, and hedonistic.

and

Parasitic lifestyle

Due to their frequent lack of qualifications, concern only for their own welfare, irresponsibility, and disinterest in boring work, it is unlikely that a psychopath will be a productive member of any firm or family he is a member of. They tend to live parasitically, draining resources but contributing little. They have no qualms about draining the money of friends and family to satisfy their desires and bail them out of trouble. Some psychopaths specifically adopt a lifestyle of seducing men or women in order to obtain money and sex from them for as long as they can.

and

Lack of remorse

Psychopaths show a profound inability to feel remorse. Whatever the crime, whoever the victim, a psychopath simply does not accept responsibility for the consequences of his actions. They know the difference between right and wrong but do not care. In some cases, psychopaths are completely forthright about their attitude: they acknowledge the pain they caused but are not sorry. In other cases they may rationalize what happened, perhaps by minimzing the seriousness of the incident, or blaming the victim in some way. Other times they may deny any harm was done.

Though psychopaths don't feel remorse, they may often claim to in order to curry leniency and forgiveness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

JMO

 

[Macright]

Telephone whispers..the process by which a piece of information becomes less reliable each time it is told by one person to another...

 

[snoofer]

It is really uncanny how the rcmp profile and the american profiles for murderers of abducted children show that these murderers have such common similarities amoung them. It is almost like a script for deviant behavior. These profiles were written years ago and yet this case reads like a CLASSIC case to minute detail. JMO

 

[swedie]

Rafferty had the car for a few years I thought.

What year did he purchase his car? I know T Moore testified that it was bought at a used car lot.


http://www.1047.ca/local-news/michael-rafferty-trial

9. T. Moore aka Tam Tam, met MR on Yahoo 2003. She said MR bought car in 2007 from used car lot in TO. Noticed May 9/09 back seat and rear carpet missing from MR's car. HtH

 

[Wondergirl]

This post pains me to read. With all due respect Dilbert, TLM has confessed and waived trial. Look up how many times in history, a person who knew they would get 25 years and maybe never see the light of day again with denied parole, admit to the crime without trying to get out of it. Don't get me wrong here, she's a troubled, bad person and a liar and deserves to be where she is but it is IMO, worse to commit a crime against a child to this capacity and attempt to take no responsibility for it which shows a clear lack of empathy and remorse and that to me is a monster. This child was raped and killed at 8 years old, all he cares about is trying to save his .

Great post, Oldsoul2.

BBM: Thank-you for reminding us this fact.

 

[swedie]

In blue:

So, if everyone believes that MTR is such a liar, especially to past girlfriends and dates, why would these stories be any more believable than the one where he thought he had colon cancer, for example? Maybe he only said he had a "bad childhood" or that he "didn't get along with his brothers/family" to gain sympathy.

But let's say this is true. What exactly does a "bad childhood" mean? Could it be that his mother was divorced, had to work, and he was lonesome? Could it be that he was bullied at school? Could it be that his mom was ill? That they were poor? It could mean anything at all.

Lots of people don't get along with their siblings and other family. As the saying goes, you can pick your nose, but your can't pick your relatives. Doesn't make one a pedophile or murderer.

In purple:

This, too, has not been proven yet, except by what MTR told a girlfriend. Maybe this was a lie, as well. But if not, there could be many reasons why he had to live with relatives, such as his mom having a possible illness, abject poverty again, she had to move and didn't want to uproot him from his school and friends, etc., etc.

My point is we don't have facts, just second-hand information with no explanation for any of it. Yet.

JMO :moo:

:floorlaugh: Good one! :floorlaugh: I've heard "you can pick your friends and you can pick your nose but you can't pick your friend's nose", or the other "you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends put you can't wipe your friends on the chesterfield". But not your version I've never heard before. Oh I've heard "sometimes genetics suck". I must remember that one of yours in case I every run into family troubles. :rocker:

Well let's just say MR tells so many lies it's hard to know what's truth. Some of what I have posted has come out in MSM has it not? Also, I guess one might call it character assassination and believable, if you look at how he turned out. HTH. :moo:

 

[brighidin]

(RSBM)

This is an oft-repeated refrain. Do you have a link to show that MTR didn't tell LE what he did with his car seat? The only thing I've ever seen is that LE couldn't find it. There is a big difference there. He may very well have told LE right after his arrest what he did with that seat.








JMO

The tweets you posted have nothing to do with any potential conversations between MR and any members of LE.

There is no way that MR told LE what he did with the seat. If he had done so, why would they make it public that they were searching for a seat? Why would they send a random one found in Kitchener for forensic testing if they knew what MR did with his seat? They wouldn't.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090525/stafford_search_090525/20090525?hub=Toronto
Monday May. 25, 2009 2:10 PM ET
"Police are testing a discarded grey rear car seat they found in Kitchener, Ont. for forensic evidence, to see if it is connected to the kidnapping and murder of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford."

 

[Macright]

The tweets you posted have nothing to do with any potential conversations between MR and any members of LE.

There is no way that MR told LE what he did with the seat. If he had done so, why would they make it public that they were searching for a seat? Why would they send a random one found in Kitchener for forensic testing if they knew what MR did with his seat? They wouldn't.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090525/stafford_search_090525/20090525?hub=Toronto
Monday May. 25, 2009 2:10 PM ET
"Police are testing a discarded grey rear car seat they found in Kitchener, Ont. for forensic evidence, to see if it is connected to the kidnapping and murder of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford."

it could very well be that he did tell them....it was put out for collection for all the world to see so he would have no reason not to tell LE when they asked him...I think LE just didn't know where the trash was taken to so that is why they asked the public for help...who knows..maybe the trash pickers that come around each garbage day picking through garbage may have taken the seat ...:moo: remember we do NOT know everything that has transpired between MR & LE and perhaps we may never know every little detail...so I would say...lets wait and see.....:moo::moo::moo:

 

[tmhco]

It was n/t asking for a case: Have any of you heard of a gangster or drug dealer kidnapping and murdering a child for revenge on a parent? Any cases out there? I can't think of any.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

A quick Google comes up with this, as recent as last week. Go figure:

http://www.wfmz.com/news/news-regio...s-say/-/121418/10282730/-/qtfesn/-/index.html

Again, they did it for a ransom. If indeed TLM initiated this kidnapping, it would seem there would have been a means to
it. That is what makes no sense to me. JMO

 

[swedie]

Ahem, TLM is a drug-addicted dealer and a juvenile delinquent. And the victim was IMO not unknown to her. Of course children are the targets - they are easily accesible, naive, easily tricked and small enough to strong-arm if need be.

This is from the link posted above:


"Stranger abduction in Canada is a rare occurrence. However, each incident tends to shock the nation. The stereotypical view held by the public of countless strangers in the community abducting children is usually fuelled by media releases that meticulously describe a tragic kidnapping. These media reports most often heighten national paranoia and inflate child safety concerns.
Tragically, those individuals, predators, who harm children are generally known to the child. Consequently, children have difficulty determining who will harm them and who will not. For this reason, the onus is on parents to screen those persons supervising and caring for their child, and to educate their children on how to stay and play safe .

In 2000 and 2001, there were ninety police reports classified as stranger abduction. It is important to note that the Canadian law enforcement definition of a stranger not only refers to someone totally unknown to the child victim but also refers to relatives, friends, and acquaintances. In comparison to parental abduction cases, where the only threat to the child is from a parent, all children are at possible risk of abduction by a stranger."

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/pubs/omc-ned/abd-rapt-eng.htm

Do not know if anyone has heard this case of the Austrian random abduction of a ten year old little girl in 1998, who was held for eight and a half years before she escaped. Some similarities to Tori's case. It was the first time Natascha was allowed to walk to school on her own, she was abducted by a male psychopath, her mother was accused of being involved. Very interesting case and very heartbreaking what this sicko did to her during those years. I am thrill she came out on the other side strong and able to survive. :moo:

The 10-year-old Kampusch left her family's residence in Vienna's Donaustadt district on the morning of 2 March 1998, but failed to arrive at school or come home. A 12-year-old witness reported having seen her being dragged into a white minibus by two men,[4][5] although Kampusch did not report a second man being present.[6] A massive police effort followed in which 776 minivans were examined,[7][8] including that of her kidnapper, Priklopil, who lived about half an hour from Vienna by car in the Lower Austrian town of Strasshof an der Nordbahn, near Gänserndorf. Although he stated that on the morning of the kidnapping he was alone at home, the police were satisfied with his explanation that he was using the minibus to transport rubble from the construction of his home.[9]

Speculations of child rings or organ theft were offered,[10] leading officials to also investigate possible links to the crimes of the French serial killer Michel Fourniret.[11] Because Kampusch had carried her passport with her when she left (she had been on a family trip to Hungary a few days before), the police extended the search abroad. Accusations against Kampusch's family complicated the issue even more;[12] there have even been unsubstantiated allegations that Kampusch's mother was somehow involved in the abduction or its cover-up.[13]

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natascha_Kampusch"]Natascha Kampusch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[swedie]

Snipped and BBM

The fact that TLM said that Tori wasn't young enough and that younger girls are easier to manipulate tells me that if he's done this before that probably most of his victims were just too young to know what was really going on. But even an 8 year old child wouldn't know what was considered sexual molestation if he was just touching her. BTW I'm sure most people here know that you don't have to penetrate someone for it to be sexual molestation, it could be just touching. MTR could have been just touching little girls for a long time before he escalated to rape. (Just saying)

Here is an example: someone touches a little girl/boy innapropriately child does know it is bad becase child is too young and someone tells them they are just playing nurse or some such thing like that.

And it's it known MR sought out women with young children? Where did I learn that from?:waitasec:

 

[antiquegirl]

The tweets you posted have nothing to do with any potential conversations between MR and any members of LE.

There is no way that MR told LE what he did with the seat. If he had done so, why would they make it public that they were searching for a seat? Why would they send a random one found in Kitchener for forensic testing if they knew what MR did with his seat? They wouldn't.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090525/stafford_search_090525/20090525?hub=Toronto
Monday May. 25, 2009 2:10 PM ET
"Police are testing a discarded grey rear car seat they found in Kitchener, Ont. for forensic evidence, to see if it is connected to the kidnapping and murder of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford."

You're certainly entitled to your opinion and interpretation of events. As am I.

I believe that the neighbour saw him put it in the shed at the end of March (as per his signed statement to LE) and then several others saw it at the curb a week or two later. I do not believe that he removed it, put it back in, and took it out again - all within two weeks. :moo: I believe it's possible that he told this to LE when asked. LE searched the dumps and couldn't find it. They then hoped that someone either picked it off the curb or took it from the dump. They then hoped that whoever had it might let them know. LE did give up asking about it and I have to wonder if that was after they got the neighbour's statement.

It's too bad that we can't access the old threads. We had a man on here back then whose wife had the same car. This nice guy actually went to his garage, removed the bench from that vehicle, and then reported back to us on how difficult it was. They are also not easy to lift and carry by a single person.

Again, JMO!

 

[Macright]

Do not know if anyone has heard this case of the Austrian random abduction of a ten year old little girl in 1998, who was held for eight and a half years before she escaped. Some similarities to Tori's case. It was the first time Natascha was allowed to walk to school on her own, she was abducted by a male psychopath, her mother was accused of being involved. Very interesting case and very heartbreaking what this sicko did to her during those years. I am thrill she came out on the other side strong and able to survive. :moo:

The 10-year-old Kampusch left her family's residence in Vienna's Donaustadt district on the morning of 2 March 1998, but failed to arrive at school or come home. A 12-year-old witness reported having seen her being dragged into a white minibus by two men,[4][5] although Kampusch did not report a second man being present.[6] A massive police effort followed in which 776 minivans were examined,[7][8] including that of her kidnapper, Priklopil, who lived about half an hour from Vienna by car in the Lower Austrian town of Strasshof an der Nordbahn, near Gänserndorf. Although he stated that on the morning of the kidnapping he was alone at home, the police were satisfied with his explanation that he was using the minibus to transport rubble from the construction of his home.[9]

Speculations of child rings or organ theft were offered,[10] leading officials to also investigate possible links to the crimes of the French serial killer Michel Fourniret.[11] Because Kampusch had carried her passport with her when she left (she had been on a family trip to Hungary a few days before), the police extended the search abroad. Accusations against Kampusch's family complicated the issue even more;[12] there have even been unsubstantiated allegations that Kampusch's mother was somehow involved in the abduction or its cover-up.[13]

Natascha Kampusch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

actually there is a lot more to that story if you want to take the trouble to research it and read some of the books that have been published... it has been claimed that her Mother did indeed know the perp.. it's actually a very interesting tale and I would recommend you check it out...IMO it has no relation at all to this case....:moo::moo: do you know that to this day Natasha carries around a picture of him...now I wonder why that is...

 

[Wondergirl]

It's irrelevant what age TLM was when she nuked the puppy, she was old enough to lie about it after and blame the injuries on a neighbourhood dog, that to me proves she knew it was wrong to put the dog in the microwave in the first place.

MOO

Do you think MTR knew it was wrong for the child he was with to be murdered and buried under rocks half naked, while 13,000 GOOD people searched for her?

I am curious as to how he gets an overlook for that psychotic behaviour?

JMO