weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[Macright]

<modsnip>

I do believe that TLM had scoliosis, which a abnormal curving of the spine, so it can be very painful. I don't think she had colon cancer. But I do understand what you mean by wannabes and those who abuse to get a high and lie and pretend to have all these diseases that real people suffer from.

Here is a link on scoliosis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002221/

I didn't know that TLM also stated she had colon cancer... so that makes the two of them now...TLM & MR...I must have missed that piece of info...:what::moo:

 

[dilbert]

That is true, but why did she think that MTR would be interested in sexually abusing a child? The defence didn't say that TLM took Tory so she could abuse her, the defence said that TLM took Tory as a gift to MTR so he could molest her.

Can anyone show me any kind of data that indicates it is common for child sex abuse survivors to abduct children for their partners to molest when that partner has said nothing to indicate they are interested in molesting a child? Because :moo: that is very different than molesting a child on one's own, turning one's back while their child is raped or giving a child to someone who has asked for that.

Are there any missing children that TLM gave as gifts to her other boyfriends, or was MTR special? If MTR was "special" it would make the most sense to me that he was because none of TLM's other boyfriends expressed interest in something so hideous.

The defence did not say that at all, the defence suggested TLM took Tori because of a drug debt. At some point later she told MR that she took Tori because of a drug debt, and even later, she offered Tori to MR as a gift.

"The abduction was your idea," he suggested to McClintic. "You went and lured this girl. You brought her in the car all friendly that Michael thought nothing of it. Later on you told him that the girl was in the car for a drug debt. Still later . . . you offered her to Michael, sexually. When it became clear that he didn't want your gift, you directed him to a rural location on a pretext . . . You said that she could be taken to a safe house. Once you got to that lane you told him to walk away because you wanted to talk to the little girl because she was scared of him. You . . . threw her down and killed her. Mr Rafferty came back after the death, was horrified, but helped you clean up."

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/23/19543041.html

 

[flipflop]

I agree he told lies, even said that in my comment. The lies he told though, were a result of the lies TLM told.

Just think, if TLM had not lied to Tori in order to lure her away, Tori would most likely be alive and this trial would not be taking place.

TLM told the first and most damaging lie.

What I'm failing to understand is the importance placed on the lies MR told in his personal dating life. Those lies did not hurt anyone, whereas that one lie TLM told to Tori, hurt many, and the lies MR told to the police after, are the result of that one crucial lie.

MOO

JMO...It makes no difference in the world who told the first lie. They are both pathetic compulsive liars. MR lied for 6 weeks covering his azz in the involvement in the kidnapping and murder of VS as he went on with his daily life, talking to others about praying for VS and looking for VS and telling people that he was sure she would be ok when infact he knew her bloodied and battered body was buried under rocks where he left her....he is SICK SICK SICK!!!!! as is TLM!!!!!

 

[Tahorn]

That is true, but why did she think that MTR would be interested in sexually abusing a child? The defence didn't say that TLM took Tory so she could abuse her, the defence said that TLM took Tory as a gift to MTR so he could molest her.

Can anyone show me any kind of data that indicates it is common for child sex abuse survivors to abduct children for their partners to molest when that partner has said nothing to indicate they are interested in molesting a child? Because :moo: that is very different than molesting a child on one's own, turning one's back while their child is raped or giving a child to someone who has asked for that.

Are there any missing children that TLM gave as gifts to her other boyfriends, or was MTR special? If MTR was "special" it would make the most sense to me that he was because none of TLM's other boyfriends expressed interest in something so hideous.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mo...ing-a-schoolgirl/story-e6frf7lf-1226241875714

Desperate people do desperate things ... And from all accounts TLM was very desperate.

&#8216;You will do anything for a little bit of love eh?&#8217;&#8221;

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...ce-statement-michael-rafferty/?__lsa=9a62a1c0


http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1127496

 

[Kamille]

I agree he told lies, even said that in my comment. The lies he told though, were a result of the lies TLM told.

Just think, if TLM had not lied to Tori in order to lure her away, Tori would most likely be alive and this trial would not be taking place.

TLM told the first and most damaging lie.

What I'm failing to understand is the importance placed on the lies MR told in his personal dating life. Those lies did not hurt anyone, whereas that one lie TLM told to Tori, hurt many, and the lies MR told to the police after, are the result of that one crucial lie.

MOO

It's interesting how you skip over the part about how MR cruised the school at 9:05am, 3:05pm, dared TLM that she was all talk, dropped her off at the school to tell that lie to Victoria, drove slowly past her to make sure she was carrying out his plan, parked in an out of the way parking lot quite far from the school and sped away with both of them in the car after the fact. All of which has been entered into evidence via testimony and video surveillence to back it up.

We don't know what lies MR might have told during his confession because...wait...he didn't confess. To anything. Not even to being there. He's letting his lawyer lie for him now.

MOO

 

[Macright]

I'm having a difficult time figuring out how people can so easily discount TLM's lies. The lies she told were HUGE, potentially life altering lies. She lied and said someone brutally killed a child, when it was, in fact, SHE who killed that child. Compare that to MR's lies to the women he dated and conversed with online and I fail so see how that makes him more evil than her.

She didn't tell just two lies either, she lied to the police numerous times.
At first she denied any and all involvement, that's a lie. How many times was she asked about her involvement and how many lies did she tell in order to throw the suspicion off of her. More lies. The accusation of rape could be another potentially life altering lie, as well as the lie she told about who's idea it was to buy the hammer and garbage bags.

She LIED to Tori in order to lure her to the car, she LIED to her family after she nuked the little puppy...LIES LIES and MORE LIES.

The most telling lie, IMO, is the lie she told on the stand while Derstine was reading all those letters she had written in juvie, letters full of violent thoughts and ideas about hurting people. She LIED on the stand, UNDER OATH and stated that was a long time ago, she's not like that anymore. Another lie. The very next day Derstine presented information showing TLM had violently assaulted a fellow inmate THIS YEAR!!, as well as statements she made to her godmother, that she had no remorse and would kill again.

How anyone can even begin to compare the lies she told to the ones MR told about his career choice, I'll never understand.
Yes, MR lied to the police too, but so did TLM, and her lies IMO were far more damaging than the ones MR told.

MOO

:yesss: what a fantastic post and so spot on and to the point....many thanks....:moo:

 

[dilbert]

JMO...It makes no difference in the world who told the first lie. They are both pathetic compulsive liars. MR lied for 6 weeks covering his azz in the involvement in the kidnapping and murder of VS as he went on with his daily life, talking to others about praying for VS and looking for VS and telling people that he was sure she would be ok when infact he new her bloodied and battered body was buried under rocks where he left her....he is SICK SICK SICK!!!!! as is TLM!!!!!

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, as I am mine, but considering the fact that Victoria died as a result of that lie, it makes a difference to me.

MOO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I agree he told lies, even said that in my comment. The lies he told though, were a result of the lies TLM told.

Just think, if TLM had not lied to Tori in order to lure her away, Tori would most likely be alive and this trial would not be taking place.

TLM told the first and most damaging lie.

What I'm failing to understand is the importance placed on the lies MR told in his personal dating life. Those lies did not hurt anyone, whereas that one lie TLM told to Tori, hurt many, and the lies MR told to the police after, are the result of that one crucial lie.

MOO

Good point.

For me it shows that MTR is just like TLM. Based on his history we have no more reason to believe anything that comes out of his mouth than what TLM says. It is then up to each individual person to look at available evidence that supports what they are saying to discern the truth.

It is not just about believing what each has said based solely on their word. I don't think I could do that even if neither one had a history of lying.

 

[Macright]

It's interesting how you skip over the part about how MR cruised the school at 9:05am, 3:05pm, dared TLM that she was all talk, dropped her off at the school to tell that lie to Victoria, drove slowly past her to make sure she was carrying out his plan, parked in an out of the way parking lot quite far from the school and sped away with both of them in the car after the fact. All of which has been entered into evidence via testimony and video surveillence to back it up.

We don't know what lies MR might have told during his confession because...wait...he didn't confess. To anything. Not even to being there. He's letting his lawyer lie for him now.

MOO

yes but consider whose mouth those statements are coming from...other than the video I wouldn't believe a thing that came out of TLM's mouth...:moo:

 

[daisy.faithfull]

The defence did not say that at all, the defence suggested TLM took Tori because of a drug debt. At some point later she told MR that she took Tori because of a drug debt, and even later, she offered Tori to MR as a gift.



http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/23/19543041.html

But I still get stuck on the part about offering Tory as a gift. The defence did speculate that that is what TLM did regardless of at what point she did it, and :moo: it doesn't make sense that she would do that without any indication from MTR that he was interested in that.

 

[flipflop]

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, as I am mine, but considering the fact that Victoria died as a result of that lie, it makes a difference to me.

MOO

VS died as a result of MR and TLM's involvement together!!!!! Yes TLM lied to lure VS, MR could have refused to allow her in his car. He could have refused to take them to Guelph to pick up the drugs. He could have went alone that day for his drug pick up. He could have taken VS to the police station at any point from 330 to before she was murdered. He could have saved this innocent childs life and he DIDN'T. So in my books, VS died as a result of both MR and TLM's involvement. JMO

 

[snoofer]

yes but consider whose mouth those statements are coming from...other than the video I wouldn't believe a thing that came out of TLM's mouth...:moo:

you have convinced me! I am not believin' nuttin outta either of their mouths!:woohoo::moo:
I think I would rather believe LE take on it. JMO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mo...ing-a-schoolgirl/story-e6frf7lf-1226241875714

Desperate people do desperate things ... And from all accounts TLM was very desperate.

‘You will do anything for a little bit of love eh?’”

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...ce-statement-michael-rafferty/?__lsa=9a62a1c0


http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1127496

I get that. But :moo: is that someone wouldn't think to go to that kind of desperate act unless it were asked of them. Otherwise, I'd think that offering a child sexually to a romantic partner would have quite the opposite effect. Even in TLM's demented little mind, I think that she would know that offering a child sexually to someone who had never indicated interest in that would defiantly end the relationship.

 

[dilbert]

It's interesting how you skip over the part about how MR cruised the school at 9:05am, 3:05pm, dared TLM that she was all talk, dropped her off at the school to tell that lie to Victoria, drove slowly past her to make sure she was carrying out his plan, parked in an out of the way parking lot quite far from the school and sped away with both of them in the car after the fact. All of which has been entered into evidence via testimony and video surveillence to back it up.
We don't know what lies MR might have told during his confession because...wait...he didn't confess. To anything. Not even to being there. He's letting his lawyer lie for him now.

MOO

re: bold in black:

We don't know for a fact (yet) that it was MR's car that cruised by the school in the morning, it could have been any car that looked similar to his.
I believe that the Crown will try to prove it was his car in the last chapter of the trial, when they review the surveillance video.
So that is why I skipped that assumption.

re: bold in red:

As for the rest, it's up to what you or I personally believe to be the motive. You believe the motive was rape, so you believe TLM was telling the truth. I believe the motive was something other than rape, so at this point, I believe TLM was telling lies.

MOO

 

[Ardy]

Regarding comments about the defense opening statement.

I would have been surprised if Derstine had presented his opening statement at the beginning of the trial, as it would have been many weeks before he had the opportunity to address the jury directly again........following the completion of the Crown case.

From his perspective, it is better to present his argument without interruption this way:

1) Opening statement to the jury.......focusing on any weaknesses or inconsistencies in the Crown evidence, and presenting the defense version of events.

2) Examination of witnesses or presentation of evidence that supports his opening statement or rebuts Crown evidence.

3) Closing argument......Derstine links the (1) Opening statement to the (2) testimony of witnesses or presentation of evidence, into a plausible theory strong enough to provide sufficient reasonable doubt for the jury to acquit.

JMO...........

 

[dilbert]

VS died as a result of MR and TLM's involvement together!!!!! Yes TLM lied to lure VS, MR could have refused to allow her in his car. He could have refused to take them to Guelph to pick up the drugs. He could have went alone that day for his drug pick up. He could have taken VS to the police station at any point from 330 to before she was murdered. He could have saved this innocent childs life and he DIDN'T. So in my books, VS died as a result of both MR and TLM's involvement. JMO

Maybe he would have if he KNEW she was being kidnapped, maybe he didn't KNOW she was being kidnapped and didn't KNOW she would be killed until it was too late to do anything at all - to which the circular argument, about why MR didn't immediately go to the police that night, begins again. I'm not one for repeating myself ad nauseum, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

MOO

 

[swedie]

(RSBM)

From these Tweets and a now unavailable article from The Globe & Mail, I got the distinct impression that TLM listed MTR as her "boyfriend" only so that he would be able to visit her in the detention centre.





TLM may have been hoping that he'd become her boyfriend, but I don't believe that either of them actually believed that he already was. According to her testimony, they only had sex three times during the two months or so they were together. That doesn't sound to me like a serious relationship. We also know that he was in contact with many other women during that period. How could this have escaped her attention, unless she didn't see him very often?

I also believe that MTR didn't lie during his interview with LE when he laughed and denied that TLM was his girlfriend. Seems obvious to me that a sexual encounter or three did not equal a BF/GF relationship in his mind. Was he using her for drugs and a bit of sex? More than likely. Did she hope it would become more than that? Probably. But I don't believe even she was delusional enough to think that they were in a romantic relationship.

I think it's entirely possible that MTR was helping her out by driving her around for household errands (and to pick up drugs, I suppose), maybe even trying to do a Henry Higgins to her Eliza Doolittle. I believe he did enlist his mother to give CM furniture and that he agreed to look after CM while TLM was in jail. He considered TLM a "friend" of sorts (with a few benefits), which is what he told LE on the 15th and to a few other people who have testified and may still testify.

It's also feasible to me that TLM tried to cement this relationship by offering up Tori to him as "a gift" and he refused. :moo:

JMO

Is that how normal guys treat woman who they consider friends or acquaintances? Pick them up by calling them a pretty little number, having sex with them in their cars within hours of meeting them. Then taking the on dates to the movies just to have sex with them and not to mention staying in a motel room with them telling them hewants to wake up next to her? I know the times are much different now then when <modsnip> I <modsnip> in the dating scene <modsnip>. I certainly never encountered this type of treatment from my male friends, <modsnip>

MR only used TLM that's pretty apparent and unfortunately she fell for his BS. The fact in which TLM claimed they only had sex maybe three times leads me to the fact he had other women he was playing out his sexual fantasies with. This fact escaped her because he took his running around out of town and had those women drive him around in their cars or have him shack up with them in their homes or apartments, highly likely and according to one.

Of course in MR's mind he didn't lie to LE about TLM being his girlfriend because he knew he was only using her to serve his sexual needs when other women weren't available. TLM was someone naive and stupid enough to help him abduct a child. Your sentence: It's also feasible to me that TLM tried to cement this relationship by offering up Tori to him as "a gift" and he refused. The bolded part is feasible omitting the underlined and replacing it with by abducting Tori for him, per his request, but the later, untrue IMHO. The whole case is based on sexual and/or nefarious purposes according to LE and the Crown. The Crown is doing an exceptional job showing the jurors MR's sexual warped side by parading all these women into the courtroom. Also taking TLM's testimony into account how she was treated by MR. All JMHO. <modsnip>. Just thought I would provide food for though. HTH

 

[tmhco]

Did the defence ever "suggest" what TLM planned on doing with Tori after she nabbed her? I would think getting her money back would have been the objective? JMO

 

[tmhco]

Maybe he would have if he KNEW she was being kidnapped, maybe he didn't KNOW she was being kidnapped and didn't KNOW she would be killed until it was too late to do anything at all - to which the circular argument, about why MR didn't immediately go to the police that night, begins again. I'm not one for repeating myself ad nauseum, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

MOO

How do you explain the fact the MR would not divulge where Tori was buried? I would happily see him imprisoned for letting that family go thru that for months after he was arrested. JMO

 

[Ardy]

Did the defence ever "suggest" what TLM planned on doing with Tori after she nabbed her? I would think getting her money back would have been the objective? JMO

I don't believe so.......and it would be interesting to know.

JMO.........