West of Memphis

[UdbCrzy2]

It wasn't a shot at you just so you know. May or may not have been a legitimate link. Just saw the word and have had too many links that simply go to a spin site so I just chose not to go there.

If you really want to know the truth about Jessie's IQ, I suggest you check out the trial testimony of Dr. Wilkins and Dr. Rickerts. Don't take my word for it.
It's at Callahans and I have uploaded some of the documents here on WS in the documents area of this thread and there is also a whole discussion of this very subject.

The testimony says he was malingering when new tests were done. On previous tests he did much better.

 

[reedus23]

If you really want to know the truth about Jessie's IQ, I suggest you check out the trial testimony of Dr. Wilkins and Dr. Rickerts. Don't take my word for it.
It's at Callahans and I have uploaded some of the documents here on WS in the documents area of this thread and there is also a whole discussion of this very subject.

The testimony says he was malingering when new tests were done. On previous tests he did much better.

I'm not too much into bickering about what labels to place on a person because one expert will say one thing and another expert will say another. For myself, it is clear enough that JM simply was not the brightest bulb on the block and was therefore more susceptible to coercion/suggestive questioning. Heck, just his age alone makes him that. Quibbling over whether a test score was 82 or 88 or 80 doesn't seem to get anywhere. Plain and simple, he wasn't so impaired as to not be able to function in society but he also was slow minded.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I think the point is that Jessie has challenges.. And that is it..

I started watching west of Memphis last night but needed a break. This crime still just rips me up.

The only reason I can think for the motive of this crime is to keep those boys from talking about something. It is the only thing that makes sense to me at this point.

Ill get back to it later.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

I'm not too much into bickering about what labels to place on a person because one expert will say one thing and another expert will say another. For myself, it is clear enough that JM simply was not the brightest bulb on the block and was therefore more susceptible to coercion/suggestive questioning. Heck, just his age alone makes him that. Quibbling over whether a test score was 82 or 88 or 80 doesn't seem to get anywhere. Plain and simple, he wasn't so impaired as to not be able to function in society but he also was slow minded.

That's why I suggested you read what really went on to see the actual cross examination. I think you will also find that he was smart enough to have been malingering too. I agree that he's not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I personally do not buy the idea that he was coerced especially with all that we now know from previously discussed threads.

If you were to believe that he was borderline then, do you believe that he is now?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Thank you for the explanation. It strikes me as rather desperate when people try to argue that Jessie is not of below average intelligence. While I was clicking around that other board, posters there were discussing this topic. Todd Moore was saying that Jessie's IQ is actually something like 85 and that he can't be mentally retarded because he mentioned wanting to go to college, as if that is proof of anything.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jessie wanted to go to a community college to take a course in Auto Mechanics. Community colleges routinely offer GED classes and trade-type courses as well as the equivalent of "basketweaving" to anyone who is willing to pay the price. To even suggest that Jessie was trying to get into an academic college is, well, nonsense!

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I just finished watching this movie.

I have to say I am disgusted by the prosecutor at the end saying that The families now have peace over the 3 guilty pleas. I know that Mark Byers does not believe these people murdered his son, I don't thank Pam H thinks they murdered her son. I don't know about Michael Moore's family.

What I see is a lot of evidence that leads to TH door. I see a disgusting person who has beaten and bullied people forever it seems.

I see outside evidence including the polygraphs of Michael hobbs jr and their stories that also carry weight.

Does anyone know where Michael Hobbs SR was that night??

 

[reedus23]

That's why I suggested you read what really went on to see the actual cross examination. I think you will also find that he was smart enough to have been malingering too. I agree that he's not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I personally do not buy the idea that he was coerced especially with all that we now know from previously discussed threads.

If you were to believe that he was borderline then, do you believe that he is now?

I did get a chance to read all of the trial testimony early on, but it's been months. I truly didn't and still don't get caught up in the labels so exactly where his intelligence levels fall isn't a huge concern for me. I do agree that he could malinger. I also agree that he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. We simply depart on whether or not he could be talked into giving his "confession". I have seen adult, businessmen fall apart when getting questioned and just start agreeing to things just for the sake of ending the questioning. That's why, IMO, JM was even more susceptible regardless of what label one puts on him.

As to your last question, I'm still not going to get into attaching labels. I haven't heard any recent interviews and while I'm sure he has gained some level of intelligence over the years, I would not be one bit surprised if he's still not the sharpest tool in the shed at his age.

 

[reedus23]

I just finished watching this movie.

I have to say I am disgusted by the prosecutor at the end saying that The families now have peace over the 3 guilty pleas. I know that Mark Byers does not believe these people murdered his son, I don't thank Pam H thinks they murdered her son. I don't know about Michael Moore's family.

What I see is a lot of evidence that leads to TH door. I see a disgusting person who has beaten and bullied people forever it seems.

I see outside evidence including the polygraphs of Michael hobbs jr and their stories that also carry weight.

Does anyone know where Michael Hobbs SR was that night??

BBM - This is one of the most disingenuous statements. Regardless of which side of the fence you sit on frankly. On the one side are those that don't believe that the WM3 are guilty, in which case it's truly disingenuous. On the other side are those who believe the WM3 are guilty but who were just let out of prison with these pleas, in which case it's truly disingenuous to them as well to say that releasing those who they believe killed their children somehow brings peace.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

BBM - This is one of the most disingenuous statements. Regardless of which side of the fence you sit on frankly. On the one side are those that don't believe that the WM3 are guilty, in which case it's truly disingenuous. On the other side are those who believe the WM3 are guilty but who were just let out of prison with these pleas, in which case it's truly disingenuous to them as well to say that releasing those who they believe killed their children somehow brings peace.

I have not believed they did it for years. Watching this. I am pretty much at that cusp of it is impossible that they did this.

I really believe that what pam said makes sense. He lost in on Stevie for whatever reason, and it went to far, And then he killed them because they witnessed it.

That is what works for me now.

Did any of the kids have more wounds than another, One more beaten than the next?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I have not believed they did it for years. Watching this. I am pretty much at that cusp of it is impossible that they did this.

I really believe that what pam said makes sense. He lost in on Stevie for whatever reason, and it went to far, And then he killed them because they witnessed it.

That is what works for me now.

Did any of the kids have more wounds than another, One more beaten than the next?

BBM

Yes. At first, everyone thought that Christopher was the most injured, which led to speculation that JMB was/could have been involved. Then, with the certified forensic pathologists opining that many if not all of the more severe injuries were postmortem animal predation, the most injured child would be Steven, which should point to TH as a suspect. Again, as I've said many times, why the wmpd refuses to consider him a suspect is simply beyond belief - unless TH knows where the proverbial bodies are buried! Michael was certainly the least injured, being described as looking like he was asleep. If the worst of the animal predation is ignored, then Christopher would be considered to be less "injured" than Steven. Steven's injuries, IMO, seem to be the ones that were more personal and more severe.

And, it's no secret that I believe as you do. This murder was discipline out of control following elimination of witnesses.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

BBM

Yes. At first, everyone thought that Christopher was the most injured, which led to speculation that JMB was/could have been involved. Then, with the certified forensic pathologists opining that many if not all of the more severe injuries were postmortem animal predation, the most injured child would be Steven, which should point to TH as a suspect. Again, as I've said many times, why the wmpd refuses to consider him a suspect is simply beyond belief - unless TH knows where the proverbial bodies are buried! Michael was certainly the least injured, being described as looking like he was asleep. If the worst of the animal predation is ignored, then Christopher would be considered to be less "injured" than Steven. Steven's injuries, IMO, seem to be the ones that were more personal and more severe.

And, it's no secret that I believe as you do. This murder was discipline out of control following elimination of witnesses.

IT feels that way. It if was a sexual predatory assault there would have been something different.. I have never ever seen a predator take 3 kids at once.
Random? Most random killers are not going to try and trap 3 kids. One could always run. The only thing that makes sense to me is that for whatever reason Th lost it on Stevie. The other kids witnessed it and he had to dispose of them.

The fact that he did laundry that night, Changed his clothes, lied about where he was and when...

IT all fits.

I can not believe that someone can not make this prosecutor start really looking into this case. This case is a stain and embarrassment for the state of Arkansas.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

IT feels that way. It if was a sexual predatory assault there would have been something different.. I have never ever seen a predator take 3 kids at once.
Random? Most random killers are not going to try and trap 3 kids. One could always run. The only thing that makes sense to me is that for whatever reason Th lost it on Stevie. The other kids witnessed it and he had to dispose of them.

The fact that he did laundry that night, Changed his clothes, lied about where he was and when...

IT all fits.

I can not believe that someone can not make this prosecutor start really looking into this case. This case is a stain and embarrassment for the state of Arkansas.

BBM

And it is this situation that will, hopefully, change things in the end. If enough political pressure is applied, I am sure that the State will reopen the case and conduct a proper investigation.

 

[Ausgirl]

IT feels that way. It if was a sexual predatory assault there would have been something different.. I have never ever seen a predator take 3 kids at once.

I have.

And if those kids had been in contact with the guy for weeks or maybe months, and was somebody they knew from 'around' the neighborhood - well, maybe they would trust him somewhat.

I am in no way ready to let go of the possibility of a predator. The WMPD's 'consulting pedo' said himself that many child molesters prefer not to penetrate, as it leaves too much evidence. And if just one of those kids threatened to talk - well, things could get real ugly, especially if the molester had a lot to lose.

I also cannot discount the possibility that this was simply bullying gone wrong. One boy is struck in the head so hard he is or seems to be dead, the others are killed in sheer panic. That makes perfect sense too.

And both theories could easily fit the MHT as well.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I have.

And if those kids had been in contact with the guy for weeks or maybe months, and was somebody they knew from 'around' the neighborhood - well, maybe they would trust him somewhat.

I am in no way ready to let go of the possibility of a predator. The WMPD's 'consulting pedo' said himself that many child molesters prefer not to penetrate, as it leaves too much evidence. And if just one of those kids threatened to talk - well, things could get real ugly, especially if the molester had a lot to lose.

I also cannot discount the possibility that this was simply bullying gone wrong. One boy is struck in the head so hard he is or seems to be dead, the others are killed in sheer panic. That makes perfect sense too.

And both theories could easily fit the MHT as well.

If it was a child predator they all most likely would have been sexually assaulted. None of that happened. I would like to see the case where on guy took 3 children at a time.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Unfortunately, none of us was in the RHH woods on May 5, 1993. I guess we have to face the facts that we may never know all of the details unless the real killer grows a pair and confesses. However, given what we do know and can deduce from the dump site, I think it's clear that no drunken teenagers or Satan worshipers committed this crime.

I think it's equally clear that the killer was angry at someone. IMO, it stands to reason that that someone was close to the killer. Again, I can rule out TM as he was out of town. I can rule out JMB as he has been thoroughly investigated. I cannot rule out TH or JKM or LG or BL (the latter two as followers instead of instigators). I still have doubts about DJ. His scenes in WoM would lend credence to his innocence. He's either an actor worthy of an Oscar or he's innocent.

So, given the affidavits from Guy and Stewart and the statements from Michael Hobbs' friends implicating Hobbs, I just sit and scratch my head and wonder WTF is going on in Arkansas? Why won't they reopen the investigation? Is the government there really that corrupt?

Then, I remember that there's more information "out there" that hasn't been released yet. So, I try to remain patient. It gets harder every day!

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Unfortunately, none of us was in the RHH woods on May 5, 1993. I guess we have to face the facts that we may never know all of the details unless the real killer grows a pair and confesses. However, given what we do know and can deduce from the dump site, I think it's clear that no drunken teenagers or Satan worshipers committed this crime.

I think it's equally clear that the killer was angry at someone. IMO, it stands to reason that that someone was close to the killer. Again, I can rule out TM as he was out of town. I can rule out JMB as he has been thoroughly investigated. I cannot rule out TH or JKM or LG or BL (the latter two as followers instead of instigators). I still have doubts about DJ. His scenes in WoM would lend credence to his innocence. He's either an actor worthy of an Oscar or he's innocent.

So, given the affidavits from Guy and Stewart and the statements from Michael Hobbs' friends implicating Hobbs, I just sit and scratch my head and wonder WTF is going on in Arkansas? Why won't they reopen the investigation? Is the government there really that corrupt?

Then, I remember that there's more information "out there" that hasn't been released yet. So, I try to remain patient. It gets harder every day!

The thing that took DJ off my list is that He was willing to wire his cell and let people listen. If he was in cahoots or guilty I would think he would be too afraid to let that happen. I found him credible.
TH, In the deposition, His dd and all she went through, She is still defending her dad while saying what he did to her. and in that depo, He thinks it is funny.. He really is off his rocker at the very very least.
But I think there is enough there to launch a full investigation into this guy.

 

[Ausgirl]

Example 1 - The Beaumont children.

Example 2 - well, really, you can do your own legwork. Cases exist, you can look them up if you want to.

But really, it's kind of moot - these children were not 'abducted' per se, but attacked in a place they often frequented.

If you're in disbelief over any predator ever molesting three kids at once in an environment that is normally 'safe' for them -- well, there's nothing I can do about that. Except maybe point you toward the many cases out there, and suggest googling them.

There is --nothing-- to say these kids were NOT molested. They were not anally raped, say the experts, but I've already given you a statement from a convicted (multiple) child molester regarding why a molester would choose to molest in a different way.

It's one thing to say "I believe such and such" and quite another to announce a thing impossible, when it clearly is not.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I don't see how the beaumont children is quite the same thing.. All siblings that were never seen again. We don't know what happened to them. So to compare them to this, I don't see it.

And that was 40 years ago, in another country. Sadly that was so long ago the evidence was probably handled differently. How awful for that family.
I am not saying anything is impossible but improbable yes. Often child abductors want to do it quick and without being spotted.

I don't believe this was random.

 

[Cappuccino]

Example 1 - The Beaumont children.

Example 2 - well, really, you can do your own legwork. Cases exist, you can look them up if you want to.

But really, it's kind of moot - these children were not 'abducted' per se, but attacked in a place they often frequented.

If you're in disbelief over any predator ever molesting three kids at once in an environment that is normally 'safe' for them -- well, there's nothing I can do about that. Except maybe point you toward the many cases out there, and suggest googling them.

There is --nothing-- to say these kids were NOT molested. They were not anally raped, say the experts, but I've already given you a statement from a convicted (multiple) child molester regarding why a molester would choose to molest in a different way.

It's one thing to say "I believe such and such" and quite another to announce a thing impossible, when it clearly is not.

With the greatest of respect, Ausgirl, we're not talking about a case of molestation. Even if there was some kind of sexual molestation carried out, we are still talking about a triple murder. The murder of three unrelated children together is extremely unusual, sexual motive or no.

The only similar case I can think of is the Oklahoma girl scouts murder, and there is also a vague and creepy similarity to the abduction of Jacob Wetterling. Other than that, this case seems like a stand alone case in all sorts of ways.

 

[Ausgirl]

I was actually addressing Scarlett's question of whether a predator could take 3 kids at once. The answer is -- yes. Common or uncommon, it happens. The end.

I agree, it's unusual - not impossible though, which is all the point I was trying to make. It isn't -impossible- that a local pedo had been grooming these kids for weeks, tried it on with one of the boys who panicked and.. it went from there.

It's also not impossible that a bunch of mean teenagers went overboard with bullying and killed one child, and took out the others to prevent them talking.

It's quite possible Terry Hobbs killed them all.

I just have a deep allergy to thing being declared impossible, or even 'improbable' when they're really not.

As to what child molester will and won't do, sorry Scarlett - this a field I have researched all my life. No way do all molesters want to 'do it quick'. I don't wish to argue, but that's how it is. All kinds of molesters act in all kinds of ways to get what they want. And what they -want- isn't always the same, either.

I think there's about as much evidence for that possibility as any other here.