What did Caylee's age have to do with her death?

[Zoe Bogart]

As far as I am aware, the only evidence 'on the body' was the duct tape, and the presence of this does 'suggest' an intentional act rather than an accident. I see nothing in this report of Det. Melich's observations that indicates that an accident has been ruled out, only that it is his opinion that the evidence he refers to suggests otherwise.

Ah, but Devon, under Florida law, that duct tape makes it intentional murder. If a child is intentionally harmed and dies from that harm, in Florida, it is considered murder.

True, US laws are based on English laws in most states, but there are some that have quirky tricks up their sleeves, and Florida is one of those states. This is the reason the attorneys appearing on various TV shows such as Issues with Jane Velez-Mitchell, Nancy Grace, and Prime News sometimes give out incorrect info, because they don't practice law in Florida. Most of those attorneys are shocked at the amount of disclosure in this case because they aren't used to seeing it in the states they practice in.

The state of Louisiana has been under a form of Napoleanic law since it was settled by the French a few centuries ago. Laws are changing but the state still has some humdinger laws on its books.

About the age question, Caylee was certainly at the age for chatting. It may be a bit difficult for some of us to understand her speech in those videos, but I'm sure her family was tuned into her speech pattern and usually knew what she was saying. Anything she said that they didn't understand, they'd probably ask her to repeat. With little kiddies, that's what one does, over and over and over, until their speech gets better as they grow.

I tend to think there were a number of things going against Caylee. Yes, her age and her talkativeness, plus extreme jealousy because Caylee (allegedly) preferred Cindy over KC, Caylee was in KC's way, KC had a new life, a new boyfriend, lots of parties......any number of things. Caylee was definitely a burden and there was no babysitter. What to do with the kid when Mom and Dad are working? What to do with the kid when I want to party? Such an obstacle to my social life!

Did Caylee die in the trunk or at home? I tend to think it may have been in the house, possibly in KC's bedroom. Did KC fly into a rage because the toddler was not behaving? Why duct tape her mouth? Were George and Cindy in another room and KC was trying to keep the child quiet? Did Caylee blab something to Grandma? Was KC still in a rage from her (alleged) fight with Cindy? Or was the trunk babysitting and the living child was already duct taped and chloroformed before her death?

No matter, under Florida law, the fact that she was abused with duct tape and possibly chloroform, and she died from that abuse, constitutes murder.

 

[Devon]

this is a genuine question, i am not being sarcastic and i want to be clear about that b/c i don't want to accidentally offend anyone.
as i've said many times, i'm not an American and your laws and judicial system occasionally seem very strange to me so i apologize if this is a stupid question - wouldn't the very act of charging someone w/ murder show that any idea of the victim's death being an accident had been ruled out by LE?
i do of course mean an innocent accident, like a fall, and not accidentally ODing someone for example.

I'm not an American either, so I've had read up on the relevant laws and the judicial system.

KC was charged with 3 alternative counts, first degree murder, aggravated manslaughter, and aggravated child abuse, so it's clear that at that point they were allowing for an accident, but one for which they believed KC would have borne some responsibility. Her behaviour after Caylee was last seen, and her obvious lies as to what happened has led them to suspect that it could not have been an 'innocent' accident (i.e with no blame attached to KC), otherwise she would have no reason to lie.

The report made by Det. Mellich in February documents his opinion based upon evidence found on the remains (which I presume means the duct tape) which is suggestive of an intentional act.

 

[eddeva]

I'm not an American either, so I've had read up on the relevant laws and the judicial system.

KC was charged with 3 alternative counts, first degree murder, aggravated manslaughter, and aggravated child abuse, so it's clear that at that point they were allowing for an accident, but one for which they believed KC would have borne some responsibility. Her behaviour after Caylee was last seen, and her obvious lies as to what happened has led them to suspect that it could not have been an 'innocent' accident (i.e with no blame attached to KC), otherwise she would have no reason to lie.

The report made by Det. Mellich in February documents his opinion based upon evidence found on the remains (which I presume means the duct tape) which is suggestive of an intentional act.

thank you devon, i'm honestly not being lazy although i can see how it might look that way. i've tried to learn about the judicial system as it pertains to florida, but i have so very little time of my own (young family, military life, personal commitments) that i've found it impossible. i'm very grateful that you took the time to explain :blowkiss:

 

[eddeva]

Ah, but Devon, under Florida law, that duct tape makes it intentional murder. If a child is intentionally harmed and dies from that harm, in Florida, it is considered murder.


No matter, under Florida law, the fact that she was abused with duct tape and possibly chloroform, and she died from that abuse, constitutes murder.

*resp. snipped.
i understand what you're saying aksleuth, but i think the problem w/ the duct tape evidence is purely that quite a few people have a firm belief that caylee died in an accident and the duct tape was apllied later to make it look like a kidnapping. using this reasoning the duct tape was not utilized for the purpose of abusing caylee and therefore some feel it should not be used as evidence of murder. i don't happen to subscribe to this theory but it does seem to be quite popular.

sorry i've gone a bit OT.

 

[Devon]

thank you devon, i'm honestly not being lazy although i can see how it might look that way. i've tried to learn about the judicial system as it pertains to florida, but i have so very little time of my own (young family, military life, personal commitments) that i've found it impossible. i'm very grateful that you took the time to explain :blowkiss:

You're very welcome. My four babies are all independent adults now, so I have more time on my hands than some. :blowkiss:

 

[Devon]

Ah, but Devon, under Florida law, that duct tape makes it intentional murder. If a child is intentionally harmed and dies from that harm, in Florida, it is considered murder.

Yes, I understand about the felony murder rule in Florida, but a conviction on that basis would require evidence that the duct tape was applied antemortem and that it's application caused or contributed to her death. As far as I can see, the only relevant factor from the list of 17 that would constitute felony murder in the circumstances of this case would be aggravated child abuse. The Fl statutes categorises this as:

(2) "Aggravated child abuse" occurs when a person:

(a) Commits aggravated battery on a child;

(b) Willfully tortures, maliciously punishes, or willfully and unlawfully cages a child; or

(c) Knowingly or willfully abuses a child and in so doing causes great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the child.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes....HTM&Title=->2008->Ch0827->Section 03#0827.03

So it seems to me that the abuse has to be of a certain level of severity and to have caused measurable physical harm.

Sorry - this is getting a bit OT again, but IMO does have some relevance to the topic - i.e Caylee's age and the significance of a possibility that she was killed by an act of abuse.

 

[Zoe Bogart]

And pitching her into a trunk, alive or dead, would not constitute some form of abuse? Then following suit by ditching her into a swamp?

The fact that this innocent child was less than three years old is a key factor. Her mother didn't give a damn that she was dead, didn't bother to report her child "missing" but instead spent her month shacking up with some guy and partying her nights away the whole time.

This woman wanted her freedom. She got it for a month. She never shed tears for Caylee, only for herself and her parents. She searched "chloroform" and "neckbreaking" and whatnot on her computer. And we're supposed to believe Casey was innocent, a loving mother, who would never harm her daughter of 2 years, 10 months?

I believe it was a deliberate act that was in the planning stages for a few months. I'd even bet her last angry words to her mother were, "I'll leave and I'm taking Caylee with me and you'll never see her again."


I'm calling my own "time out"..........

 

[Devon]

And pitching her into a trunk, alive or dead, would not constitute some form of abuse? Then following suit by ditching her into a swamp?

Snipped

Shutting a live child in a car trunk would of course be abuse, and if she suffered actual physical harm by that act it would be aggravated abuse. Any abuse of a body is abhorrent but has no relevance in terms of harm to a child.

 

[Patty G]

This thread is closed FOREVER!