What do JonBenet's clothes say?

[UKGuy]

UKGuy...JonBenet's bloomies were not "soiled". Drops of blood were on them.

Toltec,
not "soiled" ok fine, but did I say the size-12 bloomingdales were "soiled" ?

 

[beesy]

Remember also the bathroom odor that was picked up by BPD's noses the morning of 12/26/96. I cannot remember the details on that, so jump in anyone that has a source for that. It was an odor that the BPD guys could not identify, nor find a source for.

Hey
new to this thread. I've been haunting Darlie. Anyway, what's this about an odor? Was it a bad odor, good odor or just weird? Strange that they wouldn't know what the odor was considering what most people use their bathrooms for. Possibly some sort of cleaning agent? Did they ever Luminol that house? If they haven't they are big dumbs dumbs IMO

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

There were no bloodstains on the Barbie nightgown.

Oh, sorry, I'm sure I read that somewhere, but I don't remember where or how reliable it is. I'll have to try and find it again. Thanks for your interest and I'll get back to you

 

[Toltec]

This picture has a somewhat unusual aspect to it. Let it serve as a test. Evaluate this picture and give your impressions of how you would explain the marks.

WhyNutt...what a gruesome photo. Seems like this person put up a fight. I don't see where a cord might of been used in this "strangulation".

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

There were no bloodstains on the Barbie nightgown.

OK BlueCrab,

I have found the quote

'JonBenet's blood was found only on her body and the Barbie nightgown'

and it is from:

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA
ATLANTA DIVISION

ROBERT CHRISTIAN WOLF,
Plaintiff,

v.

JOHN BENNET RAMSEY and
PATRICIA PAUGH RAMSEY,
Defendants.

CIVIL ACTION NO 1:00-CV-1187-JEC

Now I know this conflicts with earlier evidence released but I thought it might be true but was initially kept from the public for some good reason. It might not be true. Which would be interesting in itself. I'm not sure whether it was evidence submitted by the plaintiff or the defendants. I'll have to find the site again and have another look.

 

[Camper]

Hey
new to this thread. I've been haunting Darlie. Anyway, what's this about an odor? Was it a bad odor, good odor or just weird? Strange that they wouldn't know what the odor was considering what most people use their bathrooms for. Possibly some sort of cleaning agent? Did they ever Luminol that house? If they haven't they are big dumbs dumbs IMO

All that I recall is that it was an odor that could not be identified by officer/s that morning. Which could have been an odor of 'a' common bathroom
cleaning product, but perhaps none of the officers had ever been exposed to
such a thing. The odor was never identified, as far as I know.

I do not remember reading anything in the media that said whether BPD used luminol. IT was not a bloody crime, two known locations for blood, JonBenet's panty and it appears that the Wolf trial mentions blood on the Barbie nightgown.



.

 

[sissi]

Maybe it was the smell of electric current zapping. Wouldn't that smell like ozone?

 

[UKGuy]

Hey
new to this thread. I've been haunting Darlie. Anyway, what's this about an odor? Was it a bad odor, good odor or just weird? Strange that they wouldn't know what the odor was considering what most people use their bathrooms for. Possibly some sort of cleaning agent? Did they ever Luminol that house? If they haven't they are big dumbs dumbs IMO

I've read it suggested somewhere that it may have been some coloring agent used on JonBenet's hair, since she was not a natural blonde.

Then again if there was some staging and the bathroom needed cleaning, well why not apply some sanitizing agent?

 

[tipper]

I've read it suggested somewhere that it may have been some coloring agent used on JonBenet's hair, since she was not a natural blonde.

Then again if there was some staging and the bathroom needed cleaning, well why not apply some sanitizing agent?

ST p4 " Her hair, which would go dishwater dirty during the Colorado winter, would blaze back blonde in the Michigan summer, with some help from a bottle, and she wore it in a pony tail or a braid."

 

[Toltec]

The odor in JonBenet's bathroom could have come from Patsy herself. She colored her hair Christmas day, and since her shower was broken, perhaps she used JonBenet's shower.

 

[Nehemiah]

The odor in JonBenet's bathroom could have come from Patsy herself. She colored her hair Christmas day, and since her shower was broken, perhaps she used JonBenet's shower.

Do we know if the coloring kit was taken out of the trash and into evidence?

It's difficult for me to imagine Patsy coloring her own hair. Perhaps she did, but with the emphasis that Patsy put on her looks (beauty queen looks) and being from the South, self hair coloring is a little questionable. I wonder if she colored JB's hair (root touch up, etc...) on Christmas Night, yet didn't want to admit to that because that would place JB up instead of asleep when they returned home? That could explain the ponytails...as the hair could have been sectioned off in that way to touch up the roots.

 

[tipper]

I've never heard of using ponytails to do root touchups. The hair gets sectioned, color is painted on the exposed part, another small section is made, more paint etc. You certainly wouldn't send someone to bed without being sure all the coloring gunk was washed out of the hair and conditioner put in and rinsed out.

 

[Zman]

K777angel:



IMO different people staged different aspects of JonBenet's death. This is why the issue of forensic evidence being missing is distinct from practise rn pages being left behind.

There were possibly three different stagings probaly done by different people, this is what makes the clothing aspect interesting, since you can see the different elements as being representive of the people who did the staging.

QUOTE]

First of all there is no evidence of a staging.

JBR was violently murdered.

Most likely tortured then strangled and then finished with the blow to the head.

It is what it is sometimes.

 

[BlueCrab]

K777angel:



IMO different people staged different aspects of JonBenet's death. This is why the issue of forensic evidence being missing is distinct from practise rn pages being left behind.

There were possibly three different stagings probaly done by different people, this is what makes the clothing aspect interesting, since you can see the different elements as being representive of the people who did the staging.

QUOTE]

First of all there is no evidence of a staging.
It is what it is sometimes.

Zman,

There's plenty of evidence of staging. The naive ransom note, of course, is staging exhibit no.1. A crime scene is what it is sometimes, as perceived by the observer.

 

[Camper]

The odor in JonBenet's bathroom could have come from Patsy herself. She colored her hair Christmas day, and since her shower was broken, perhaps she used JonBenet's shower.

Musta been some really stinky stuff to have lasted til the next morning when BPD arrived!

Also if something was used on JonBenets hair, the odor should have still been noted on her body, I would think. It wasn't too much longer after that her body was found. Bet maybe none of the BPD present for the odor in the bathroom were still there for when the body was found.

Good thought about the JonBenets bathroom shower being used by Patsy.


,

 

[Nehemiah]

My kids never wore pull-ups, so those of you who have knowledge...chime in here....

Could those oversized panties on JBR have been put on her over a pair of pull-ups before going to the Whites (or even after returning home, for that matter)? Would it take panties 2 sizes larger than the normal size? Is that a feasible thought?

 

[tipper]

I know one of my kids wore pull-ups, can't remember for the others. But in our house the pull-ups were the panties. Not sure why people would also put underpants on too. They were surprisingly slim so I think one size larger would be the most you could possible need to go.

 

[Toltec]

I know one of my kids wore pull-ups, can't remember for the others. But in our house the pull-ups were the panties. Not sure why people would also put underpants on too. They were surprisingly slim so I think one size larger would be the most you could possible need to go.

....unless the girl wore a dress, I too see no reason for putting panties on over the pullups.

Let's discuss the time when JonBenet was asked to change for the dinner party. At that time she was wearing her "play clothes".

JonBenet must have been aware that she had stained panties on...so she most likely took her pants and panties off in her bathroom.. Her play pants were found in the bathroom turned inside out and they were soiled. The soiled panties could or could not be "missing". So what does JonBenet do after removing her pants and panties?

Does JonBenet tell Patsy that she is "dirty"? Does Patsy wipe her down and place clean panties on?

Does JonBenet pull out clean underwear from her drawer and put them on?

This is important: Did JonBenet or Patsy put on the "Wednesday" panties on her? We know if she was wearing those panties to the White's....then it would have been Patsy picking out the panties because JonBenet could not read the word "wednesday".

This is important: What "play" top was JonBenet wearing? Was it the red turtleneck? Is that why Patsy initially told LE that JonBenet went to bed wearing the red turtleneck?

 

[UKGuy]

....unless the girl wore a dress, I too see no reason for putting panties on over the pullups.

Let's discuss the time when JonBenet was asked to change for the dinner party. At that time she was wearing her "play clothes".

JonBenet must have been aware that she had stained panties on...so she most likely took her pants and panties off in her bathroom.. Her play pants were found in the bathroom turned inside out and they were soiled. The soiled panties could or could not be "missing". So what does JonBenet do after removing her pants and panties?

Does JonBenet tell Patsy that she is "dirty"? Does Patsy wipe her down and place clean panties on?

Does JonBenet pull out clean underwear from her drawer and put them on?

This is important: Did JonBenet or Patsy put on the "Wednesday" panties on her? We know if she was wearing those panties to the White's....then it would have been Patsy picking out the panties because JonBenet could not read the word "wednesday".

This is important: What "play" top was JonBenet wearing? Was it the red turtleneck? Is that why Patsy initially told LE that JonBenet went to bed wearing the red turtleneck?

Toltec,

The issues surrounding her pullups and size-12 underwear can all be resolved by fiber analysis, if she wore either alone beneath the black velvet pants then they will retain a fiber residue.

Given that Patsy knew JonBenet had soiled her jeans, she may have decided to dress her in the pullups as a form of insurance against another accident at the "whites", but not on their own, most likely in combination with her underwear, that is size-6. Patsy would have dressed JonBenet in those, probably after either bathing or showering her, Patsy has stated she never allowed JonBenet to bathe herself!

Now lets consider Patsy allowed JonBenet to wear those size-12 pants, so she opened the packet selected a pair and said to JonBenet, "Look these are todays pair, put these on honey", so JonBenet enthusiastically put them on.

There is no big deal here, its all pretty straight forward. So why does Patsy forget it all?

Why would Patsy remember that they had an argument over the red turtleneck, why is that so necessary to explain away, when the size-12's or the potentially missing two-pairs of size-6's are not e.g. amnesia occurs.

Since IMO JonBenet's clothing is a central component in the staging that took place, its possible that the red-turtleneck had been initially chosen to dress JonBenet in. Or those and the jeans were what JonBenet was wearing when she was killed. And the soiling of the jeans was a consequence of her bowel moving after death. If you were attempting to remove soiled jeans from a lifeless body then peeling them down and leaving them inside out seems feasible?

So why the pullups, why the size-12's and why the Barbie nightdress when Patsy knew full well JonBenet's pink pijamas the ones she wore on xmas day probably up and until mid-day, were lying under her pillow or on her bed as she stated they were on christmas-eve, that is Patsy remembers this.

A possible explanation for this is that the clothes JonBenet was found wearing in the wine-cellar, were not the ones she was wearing after being re-dressed subsequent to her death.

That is she was re-dressed at least twice, and it was possibly not Patsy who did the re-dressing, since she knew where her pink pijamas were, ie no need for her Barbie nightdress, she knew where her size-6 underwear was kept, and the pullups are similar to the size-12 pants, not impractical as clothing, just incongruent if it was Patsy doing the re-dressing.

Lets speculate whomever authored the ransom note also assisted in dressing JonBenet to appear "kidnapped", could this be her play-clothes or outdoor clothing? Would she be evidently tied and bound, would she be blindfolded or enclosed in some material to emphasise her capture and lack of mobility?

Summarizing:

We have two pairs of trousers: black velvet pair and the soiled jeans.

We have two tops: the white gap and the red turtleneck.

We have two pairs of underwear: a size-6 worn prior to soiling her jeans, and the size-12's placed on her at some point either prior to or after her death.

So maybe its possible to see the above as part of JonBenet's re-dressing repertoire, there is a delicate symmetry in the pairings.

But if you add the pullups in this appears not to hold, but what if JonBenet was changed into size-6's for the Whites, then the symmetry remains.

So the Barbie nightdress is bit left out or odd, as far as the above pairings go, so where does it fit in? Well its likely the person who was revising JonBenet's staging realized the white gap top was not indicitive of her being abducted sleeping from her bed, so it was due to be placed on her, and her white gap top would probably have been flung back onto her bed!

This leaves either one or two pairs of JonBenet's size-6 underwear missing. These have either been removed to obscure forensic evidence or as trophies by her killer?

I believe Jonbenet was photographed on christmas day, and the the photograps show her smiling happy and relaxed, wearing her pink pijamas, her hair is loose, uncombed, hanging down. In one photograph where she is in portrait with Patsy, JonBenet's neck is plainly visible, she is wearing a gold necklace and cross, and there are no markings on her neck at all.

So JonBenet's clothes do have something to say, it just depends how much you want to hear!

 

[Nehemiah]

Great post, Guru. I totally agree.

There has to be something of interest in those Christmas photos taken at the White's party that night or they would have been leaked/released by now. We have never seen any of those pictures. And, in those photos, I believe, is a major clue about JB's clothes that ties into reconciling (or not) what she was wearing between then and when she was murdered.