What do we know about hair decomp ***REVISITED***

[Muzikman]

Did MM p/u the latest docs? I can see the media wanting to hold onto the "exclusive", but if they got them they'd have to be out there for the public to get as well. Unless, LE requested them not to post them for some reason.This is info that's never been seen...now I wonder if there is more. I guess someone can always ask WESH.

ETA: gonna try and track them down...having a hard time locating them on WESH.

I have not gotten these yet, I've been out of state, and will not be able to get them until after the 25th unfortunately... really want to see them tho.

These were in the 8/7 doc dump, and I believe there's several other things in there that the media hasn't put up also.

 

[AZlawyer]

I recall seeing one email from the body farm dude that said he was discontuing that work? and cannot even find THAT one now, but otherwise, I did not see the emails in question, nor has Wesh responded to my email so I guess unless Muzikman has the docs and can locate it within his, we won't be seeing these... And what a shame, because this is a VERY important piece of this puzzle imo...Has anyone got a link about the chloroform one? Perhaps we can go from there and hunt it down...

I don't think we really saw that email in the doc dump. I think a large chunk of it was directly quoted in the news reports and so we think we saw it...but we didn't. This is a quote from the email(s) that I believe were NOT in the doc dump (from the Body Farm guy, I believe, to OSCO):

"I try very hard not to second-guess people since I am well aware that I know very little of what is really going on in an investigation, but I think the early release of the chloroform data was a mistake. Since I am saying nothing to anyone outside my group, I am now getting criticized for other reasons and feel that it might be time to back away from this work. I will of course get the next report out to you and Yuri as promised as soon as I can. On a final note, some of the products we have seen include Pinene and Limonene. This could point to a (possibly) shallow marshy area with decaying vegetation. Is there such an area anywhere near where the car was found? Is it possible to get a topo map of the area? Would it be possible to speak to the individual leading the search from Necrosearch?"

There was an email in the doc dump about no blood in the car, and asking for the chemical composition of the BlueStar blood test. But the other emails were not with that one. Here's a quote from the email I believe WAS in the doc dump:

I am in the middle of a high profile Homicide Investigation where the victim, age 3, may have been placed into the trunk of a vehicle long enough where the odor of death/decomp is present. I did use bluestar in the trunk to detect any blood which was negative.

 

[Gma Kat]

--------------------------
I just spent over an hour at the body farm. I read a lot,much revisiting but good to refresh my memory.Most interesting was Dr. Baden writing about the hair rings which definately tell of death,also mentions of chloroform.I read (quite a while ago) of the chloroform in KCs car,way above level for the decomp..I cannot for the life of me find that page! I believe they took it off as I have looked for months.I must learn how to ccp a url, I would post it. I went to "the body farm Caylee Anthony" a wealth of info and refreshing info.. I also read on "the body farm".I cant believe they have so many pages om Caylee.I haven't seen any emails but I remember reading the one from fellow who said he'd quit, it was posted I believe with the report from FBI to OSCO..I am quite sure it was in the last drop.(oh to have a young mind again!).

bbm: That is the only email I remember also. I also recall the report re the chloroform, which I just read a few days ago, I thought in the last doc dump.

 

[RR0004]

I have not gotten these yet, I've been out of state, and will not be able to get them until after the 25th unfortunately... really want to see them tho.

These were in the 8/7 doc dump, and I believe there's several other things in there that the media hasn't put up also.

Yeah, MM!!

But, boo...I'm leaving for vaca on the 25th.

 

[RR0004]

I don't think we really saw that email in the doc dump. I think a large chunk of it was directly quoted in the news reports and so we think we saw it...but we didn't. This is a quote from the email(s) that I believe were NOT in the doc dump (from the Body Farm guy, I believe, to OSCO):

"I try very hard not to second-guess people since I am well aware that I know very little of what is really going on in an investigation, but I think the early release of the chloroform data was a mistake. Since I am saying nothing to anyone outside my group, I am now getting criticized for other reasons and feel that it might be time to back away from this work. I will of course get the next report out to you and Yuri as promised as soon as I can. On a final note, some of the products we have seen include Pinene and Limonene. This could point to a (possibly) shallow marshy area with decaying vegetation. Is there such an area anywhere near where the car was found? Is it possible to get a topo map of the area? Would it be possible to speak to the individual leading the search from Necrosearch?"

There was an email in the doc dump about no blood in the car, and asking for the chemical composition of the BlueStar blood test. But the other emails were not with that one. Here's a quote from the email I believe WAS in the doc dump:

I am in the middle of a high profile Homicide Investigation where the victim, age 3, may have been placed into the trunk of a vehicle long enough where the odor of death/decomp is present. I did use bluestar in the trunk to detect any blood which was negative.

Yup...I don't even think the guys reporting know the media hasn't put everything out there.

 

[magic-cat]

http://www.wesh.com/news/20314235/detail.html

At this link there is a video that discusses many of the emails we are discussing. It states "a glimpse of emails between investigators on the case", goes on "The FBI has a hair that shows signs of decomposition, the dead mans ring" (this was from Yuri to Dr. Vass, the Body Farm expert) then it goes on to show a close shot of the very email we are all discussing and cannot find which details the mistake of releasing the chloroform results and the "marshy area". I captured a screen shot and zoomed it. Will try to upload and post but have NOT been able to actually view this email in ANY of the document dumps nor any of the other emails that they discuss in this video. Supposedly there were a series of, which is indicative of several...

I have also taken a screen shot of "the dead mans ring" in case that should become unavailable for some reason and will post that as well.

 

[magic-cat]

Am having difficulty getting the "manage attachments" function to work. It was just working and now? Nope...will try again in a little bit. Anyhow that same screen shot I posted in my previous post also is the same email that is discussing the mistake it was to release the chloroform results and about the marshy area and I spotted the word pinesol I do believe...

 

[magic-cat]

Finally got this link to load with the screenshot of the "dead mans ring" from the video.

 

[magic-cat]

Yup...I don't even think the guys reporting know the media hasn't put everything out there.

I think your right about that. Wesh OBVIOUSLY has the emails. Why are they NOT releasing them?

 

[BionicSurfer]

"On a final note, some of the products we have seen include Pinene and Limonene. This could point to a (possibly) shallow marshy area with decaying vegetation. Is there such an area anywhere near where the car was found?"

Snipped by me

These 2 chemicals caught my attention as we make them here. They are made from a "left-over" stream from paper mills mostly scrub pine. I'm sure that there were several pines in the area where Caylee was found. Don't know if this is a naturally occurring chemical process. I DO know that both of these products can be found in cleaning chemicals. The "pine" cleaning product comes to mind. These just caught my eye. Could this be an artifact from the attempted clean-up?

 

[AZlawyer]

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/20483047/detail.html

pp. 87-90 are some of those emails we wanted to see.

 

[magic-cat]

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/20483047/detail.html

pp. 87-90 are some of those emails we wanted to see.

Finally! Isn't it strange though that we end up seeing them in a motion rather in a posting of the documents.

 

[magic-cat]

I happened upon yet another instance where "hair banding" is specifically noted in the discovery, or at least in one of the motions by the defense. It is on page of 22 of 91 of the Renewed Motion to compel Bench Notes, etc... It states: 21.) Any and all standards or other references used by the FBI to determine the existence of hair banding.

I would attach a link, but I saved the document to my computer so no link is available.

So the defense is very concerned about this single hair of Caylees and for good reason. No matter what else-there was a hair from a corpse in the trunk of Caseys car and their was the smell of a decomposing body in the car, and the corpse was Caylee and the only one in control of that car? Casey.:behindbar

 

[seagull65]

From the June 26, 2009, FBI Lab report

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/conwayrelease.pdf
Just wondering about the part (page 10 of 19 at the link, page 7 / 9587 in the report itself)

"Results of examinations:

No hairs exhibiting characteristics of apparent decomposition were found in or on specimens submitted from the vehicle/residence (Q319 through Q337, FBI Laboratory number 081121015 to LF; Q242, Q244 and Q248 through Q248.4.)"


Q319 through Q 337 includes "debris from inside trunk", "debris from trunk liners" and "debris from spare tire cover", as well as debris from many items of trash found in the trunk such as the pizza box and others.

Q242 is knife from vehicle
Q244 is doll from vehicle
Q248 through Q248.4 is napkins from vehicle.

Does anyone know (please post link if you have something) if there was any other trunk debris or sweepings listed somewhere else in evidence, not included in this listing, that did or may have hair that exhibited decomp? Or does this report cover all the trunk (hair) evidence and mean there were not any hairs showing decomp in the trunk?

 

[marspiter]

Hair in trunk (Q 12.1) was from a dead person with the same mitochondrial DNA as Casey Anthony, which runs in the female line of a family. http://blogs.discovery.com/files/18530294.pdf p. 8. As Casey said, "well, I'm alive"...and Lee's alive, and Cindy's alive, and SP (grandma)'s alive...and really the only person who would have that mDNA who is not alive and became not-alive anytime recently is Caylee.

The hair in the trunk (Q12.1) was also microscopically similar to the hair in Caylee's hairbrush. http://www.wftv.com/pdf/18740657/detail.html p. 29

The hair in the trunk (Q12.1) was also microscopically similar to the hair attached to Caylee's head when her body was found (Q59). http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFile...01redacted.pdf p. 55.

The Q59 hair also had the same mDNA as Casey. http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFile...01redacted.pdf p. 41.


Quoted from AZlawyer at [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4236922&postcount=74"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - LKB & JB On Today Show Oct.2, 2009[/ame]

Sorry not sure how to move a quote from one thread to another. This should answer your question though.

 

[faefrost]

From the June 26, 2009, FBI Lab report

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/conwayrelease.pdf
Just wondering about the part (page 10 of 19 at the link, page 7 / 9587 in the report itself)

"Results of examinations:

No hairs exhibiting characteristics of apparent decomposition were found in or on specimens submitted from the vehicle/residence (Q319 through Q337, FBI Laboratory number 081121015 to LF; Q242, Q244 and Q248 through Q248.4.)"


Q319 through Q 337 includes "debris from inside trunk", "debris from trunk liners" and "debris from spare tire cover", as well as debris from many items of trash found in the trunk such as the pizza box and others.

Q242 is knife from vehicle
Q244 is doll from vehicle
Q248 through Q248.4 is napkins from vehicle.

Does anyone know (please post link if you have something) if there was any other trunk debris or sweepings listed somewhere else in evidence, not included in this listing, that did or may have hair that exhibited decomp? Or does this report cover all the trunk (hair) evidence and mean there were not any hairs showing decomp in the trunk?

I'm betting this batch was the hair samples that Dr. Lee found that day. The one that tested positive looks to be a much ealier sample, just going by the Q numbering.

 

[seagull65]

Thanks Faefrost, and thanks for the link, marspiter

 

[Brini]

http://www.wesh.com/news/20314235/detail.html

At this link there is a video that discusses many of the emails we are discussing. It states "a glimpse of emails between investigators on the case", goes on "The FBI has a hair that shows signs of decomposition, the dead mans ring" (this was from Yuri to Dr. Vass, the Body Farm expert) then it goes on to show a close shot of the very email we are all discussing and cannot find which details the mistake of releasing the chloroform results and the "marshy area". I captured a screen shot and zoomed it. Will try to upload and post but have NOT been able to actually view this email in ANY of the document dumps nor any of the other emails that they discuss in this video. Supposedly there were a series of, which is indicative of several...

I have also taken a screen shot of "the dead mans ring" in case that should become unavailable for some reason and will post that as well.

JBean put up the info re: the decomp at the proximal end of the hair (we were thinking distal- root) the LAST time we beat this horse.

IIRC it's on the last hair decomp thread.

 

[Balthazar]

Hair in trunk (Q 12.1) was from a dead person with the same mitochondrial DNA as Casey Anthony, which runs in the female line of a family. http://blogs.discovery.com/files/18530294.pdf p. 8. As Casey said, "well, I'm alive"...and Lee's alive, and Cindy's alive, and SP (grandma)'s alive...and really the only person who would have that mDNA who is not alive and became not-alive anytime recently is Caylee.

The hair in the trunk (Q12.1) was also microscopically similar to the hair in Caylee's hairbrush. http://www.wftv.com/pdf/18740657/detail.html p. 29

The hair in the trunk (Q12.1) was also microscopically similar to the hair attached to Caylee's head when her body was found (Q59). http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFile...01redacted.pdf p. 55.

The Q59 hair also had the same mDNA as Casey. http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFile...01redacted.pdf p. 41.



Quoted from AZlawyer at Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - LKB & JB On Today Show Oct.2, 2009

Sorry not sure how to move a quote from one thread to another. This should answer your question though.

Didn't it later turn out that the hairbrush that Cindy gave LE was actually one used by both Casey and Caylee? And, IMO, Casey's hair looks considerably darker to me and of a different texture than Caylee's. So, I'm not sure how all the hairs from the hairbrush could be microscopically similar to Caylee's? I could understand if they sorted the hairs from the hairbrush into two different groups, but to just say overall, they are similar, doesn't make sense to me. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Brini]

From the June 26, 2009, FBI Lab report

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/conwayrelease.pdf
Just wondering about the part (page 10 of 19 at the link, page 7 / 9587 in the report itself)

"Results of examinations:

No hairs exhibiting characteristics of apparent decomposition were found in or on specimens submitted from the vehicle/residence (Q319 through Q337, FBI Laboratory number 081121015 to LF; Q242, Q244 and Q248 through Q248.4.)"


Q319 through Q 337 includes "debris from inside trunk", "debris from trunk liners" and "debris from spare tire cover", as well as debris from many items of trash found in the trunk such as the pizza box and others.

Q242 is knife from vehicle
Q244 is doll from vehicle
Q248 through Q248.4 is napkins from vehicle.

Does anyone know (please post link if you have something) if there was any other trunk debris or sweepings listed somewhere else in evidence, not included in this listing, that did or may have hair that exhibited decomp? Or does this report cover all the trunk (hair) evidence and mean there were not any hairs showing decomp in the trunk?

Thr decomped hair WAS found in the trunk. The other trunk contents are in another report. Check the earlier doc dumps.