What Do We Know That We Really Know?

  • #21
25. We know TH took Kyron to Skyline School using the white truck with the stated purpose of transporting Kyron's science project back home after the science fair.

I think we also know that the science project was taken to school sometime on Thursday and not on Friday morning. Kaine mentioned that the science projects were to be presented on Thursday before the science fair was open to students, parents, guests. jmo
 
  • #22
BBM: Does anyone have a map of this location???

Give me an address and I'll give you a map, I've been on google earth the last hour getting a visual of the whole area. Here's a map of the school I've been looking at some. You'll have to Zoom to look closer but this gives you a wide view.

Two things I've noticed if the mapping addressing is correct.

1. There's more than one way to the school.

2. There's no parking in front of the school, the parking is around back. Someone could literally walk out of a building and into a car or truck.

http://tinyurl.com/2byv5bl
 
  • #23
I think the original poster started this thread to highlight how few actually verified facts are publicly known in this case. As if to prove the point, we've ended up with a big long list of all of the hearsay and circumstantial "facts" that the public has been chewing over for nearly 2 months. For example, most of what has been stated by KH or DY in their many press appearances and nearly all of what appears in KH's court filings is inadmissible hearsay, not fact. LE has been pretty careful not to corroborate the things that KH and DY are saying they have been told by LE - indeed, in a few instances, LE has actually made contrary statements.

We all draw alot of inferences from what we think we know about this case when the reality is we don't actually know very much at all.
 
  • #24
WHAT DO WE KNOW THAT WE REALLY KNOW?

1. Terri was the last known person to see Ky at 8:45 a.m. 6/4/10 at Skyline School.

2. There was obviously enough confusion about the alleged MD appointment for Ky that his absence, when noticed, seems to not have raised any red flags.

3. Ky did not get off the bus at the Horman residence that fateful afternoon.

4. A flier was produced by MCSO and sent to Skyline School parents and students with pics of Terri and a white truck similar to the one she was said to be driving. (Others could download this flier and email or send it in to MCSO if it was felt the information could be useful to the investigation.)

5. On June 4th, both local Jim Kelley and one other neighbor both witnessed a white truck similar to the Hormans', spotted twice at extremely odd times of the day and night. The witnesses stated that there was a female driver in both instances. In addition, two WS posters went to the exact location where the truck had been spotted and found it to "be so very remote and out of the way" that it would be "nearly impossible for someone" to just "end up there."


6. We do know that Kaine's attorney, Laura Rackner (who says she was informed by LE of the MFH plot, along with "sexual in nature texts resembling those to MC and from the landscaper that Terri allegedly attempted to hire in the MFH plot) used this information in filing the RO and divorce papers against Terri Horman.

7. We do know that after Kaine receiving knowledge of the MFH from LE that he immediately moved himself and Baby K from the residence on Sheltered Nook, followed by the above mentioned RO and divorce papers.

8. We know that within a few days of Kaine and Baby K moving out of the family residence that Terri started a "sexual in nature" communication with MC that included graphic text and pics.

9. We do know that Terri did not contest the RO nor the custody of Baby K and that there is absolutely no visitation for Terri with her daughter.


10. We know Terri hired a very prominent defense lawyer (not a family law attorney.)

11. We know that Terri did not contest the RO revision that had her move out of the family home.

12. We do know that Terri vacated the family home last Saturday (7/17) by 3 p.m. or perhaps actually Friday evening (7/16).

13. We know that Terri did not take her custom plated Mustang when she moved south to Roseburg with her parents.


14. We know that Terri has not spoken publicly -- to plead her innocence, to contest any of the accusations against her, nor to ever once plead for Kyron's return.

15. We know there was a Grand Jury convened on Monday, 7/26/10, and a close friend of TH, DeDe Spicher was subpoenaed.


16. We know that LE has been informing Kaine and Desiree of a great deal of possibilities.

17. We know that Kaine and Desiree have expressed their belief that Terri is concealing information based on things Terri has said directly to them.

18. We know it has been reported that it has been 54 days since Ky has been seen, at least by Kaine, Desiree, or Tony -- per their report.

19. We know the reward has doubled to 50 K as of 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 7/27/10.

20. We know Kyron likes sushi, mac and cheese, and the song Fireflies, his favorite color is red, and he almost always smiles in pictures.


21. We know Terri Moulton participated, and placed 4th, in a body building competition in 2005.

22. We know LE and the FBI consider Kyron a "Missing and Endangered" child.

23. On June 4th, we know that DY and TY were in Medford, where they live, and over four hours from Portland.

24. We know that KH was at work at Intel from approximately 7:30 a.m. to 2:00 p.m.

25. We know TH took Kyron to Skyline School using the white truck with the stated purpose of transporting Kyron's science project back home after the science fair.

26. We know that missing and endangered child, Kyron, is loved and missed tremendously by his parents, classmates, friends and community.

27. We know Ky is allergic to bee stings, loves art, and is a shy boy that doesn't venture far from adults.

28. We know that Ky wears glasses and his biggest fear is to not have them.

29. We know that Ky is a beautiful child that is artistic and kind.


(Thank you to all who have posted so far. Please feel free to post any needed corrections, clarifications, links, questions, etc. -- and to add to and carry on this list.)

God bless Kyron and all who love him. We are legion -- and we are praying.
:praying::praying::praying:

RED = Related to the search for Kyron
BLUE = Makes TH look bad, but may or may NOT have anything to do with Kyron
PURPLE = Has NOTHING to do with finding Kyron and is all just family drama/noise.
GREEN = Not even sure if we actually know this to be true.
 
  • #25
Closing this thread until I hear back from Avalon regarding her intent of facts vs. speculation as the topic. :)
 
  • #26
AvalonBlue, our thread author, has sent a message regarding the intent for this thread. Hope this clears things up! The thread is open again! :woohoo:

I started the post with the intention of us "re-sleuthing" what we really know we know about Kyron's case -- considering all the mis-information we now know (think) we've been operating under. Ideally, we would go back over timelines, links, rumors, both on WS and MSM and use our new awareness to cull out what is really fact -- as far as we can determine that much of anything is fact.
 
  • #27
What a job for investigators in this case. Imagine the tips...etc.... they deal with everyday. I can't even go without a headache just trying to figure out fact from ficiton.
God bless the investigators with wisdom, insight, knowledge, rock solid info.
 
  • #28
The one thing that I am absolutely certain of in this case-is that I really KNOW nothing.Un-flippin believable!
 
  • #29
AvalonBlue, our thread author, has sent a message regarding the intent for this thread. Hope this clears things up! The thread is open again! :woohoo:

I started the post with the intention of us "re-sleuthing" what we really know we know about Kyron's case -- considering all the mis-information we now know (think) we've been operating under. Ideally, we would go back over timelines, links, rumors, both on WS and MSM and use our new awareness to cull out what is really fact -- as far as we can determine that much of anything is fact.

Hi all,

This thread was closed most of the day -- due to me needing to clarify with Kimster more about my intent for this thread -- and, as you can see by the exchange above, we got that accomplished.

Due to me still being a relative newbie, a message I sent back to Kimster Wednesday morning went awry -- hence my mailbox bungle caused the delay in getting the thread re-opened.:banghead:

So, with my clarification above, are you all still game to go for "the facts, Ma'am, just the facts" -- and see what we can come up with?:detective:

Hope so! :applause:
 
  • #30
My problem is that I don't think I know anything! I know there is a reward for $50,000!
 
  • #31
Thanks to those who can put their emotions and theorizing aside and be respectable to the OP's request to state facts.



We know that law enforcement has been informing Kaine and Desiree of a great deal of possibilities. We know that Kaine and Desiree have expressed their belief that Terri is concealing information based on things Terri has said directly to them.

We have no idea if what is being contributed to LE are facts. Because we have know way of knowing the context with anything alledgedly said by LE.

We do not know if it was said as a fact or if they lied as an investigative tool. TH's friend claims that LE alledgedly said they have enough probable cause to arrest TH. Is that a fact or did LE lie to scare the friend into agreeing to talk and/or take a polygraph? We do not not know.

We do not know if anything coming from KH or DY alledgely said by LE was a "fact" or a "question" that they assumed as a fact or an investigative tool. An example would be say that LE asked if TH went to ABC coffee shop. Are they asking because a witness placed TH at ABC coffee shop? Are they asking because of a cell phone ping in the area of ABC and ABC has video surveillance? We just do not know why they asked the question. We also would not know if the question is being repeated as a "fact."

Even the MFH allegations. If a landscaper came forward, LE is going to question the fact that he waited over 9 months. LE would have to check his credibility by questioning KH. They might ask him "do you believe that TH would attempt a MFH?" "Did you have any accidents or strange occurrence during that time?" KH might repeat it as a fact when LE was fishing for information to help them determine the credibility of the claims. Again, we do not know if it was a stated fact or a question that was believed to be true by the person being questioned but is really an investigative question.

We also are getting their interpretation of LE's alledged statements/comments. Any broad statements by LE are going to be interpretated by the individual based on their personal feelings/biases towards the person. A statement by LE that they believe TH knows something is not enough information to know what LE is talking about. Knows something about Kyron or knows something about someone else or knows the weather is? The statement is just too broad. But repeated, people cannot help but interject their opinion into what LE is talking about.

Even court documents that state information as coming from LE cannot be believed. Again, we do not know the context. But more than that, just because an attorney states it does not mean it is true even in court documents.

On a personal note, attorneys lie all the time in motions and/or court papers all the time. That is why they use "allegations." But they also lie directly to Judges with very few doing anything about it. The reason is Judge's know people andd attorneys lie. If they did not lie, Judge's would not have a job. If attorneys are sanctioned/fined for lying and/or misrepresentations, in most cases they have to report those sanctions to the State Bar. The State Bar then has to decide if it is something minor or something they need to take action on. Either way, it goes on the attorney's record. Judge's used to be attorneys. They would not want their records dirtied up with a bunch of minor infractions. Therefore, unless it is an extremely eggregarious lie and/or misrepresentation or you find that rare Judge who will not put up with an nonsense, attorneys lie and/or mispresent facts/allegations to make their clients look better. Just because an attorney says it in a court document does not make it true.

Therefore, IMO, anything attritbuted to LE indirectly by anyone else, we do not know the context, so we cannot state it is a fact. Only LE knows if it truly is a fact and they are not speaking.

These are just my opinions and my opinions only.
 
  • #32
Originally Posted by SmoothOperator
we know that Jim Kelley and 1 other neighbor both witnessed on June 4th a white similar truck to Kaines was spotted with a female driver not once but twice at extremely odd times of the day and night (and tho it was rumored to be a blond woman, this was never found confirmed nor even stated anywhere so as far as we know it is just a female) Also related to this two of our posters went tp this exact location and found it to be so very remote and out if the way that nearly impossible for someone to just "end up there"
BBM: Does anyone have a map of this location???
There is one linked in my signature that shows JK's home relative to everything else.
 
  • #33
We have no idea if what is being contributed to LE are facts. Because we have know way of knowing the context with anything alledgedly said by LE.

We do not know if it was said as a fact or if they lied as an investigative tool. TH's friend claims that LE alledgedly said they have enough probable cause to arrest TH. Is that a fact or did LE lie to scare the friend into agreeing to talk and/or take a polygraph? We do not not know.

We do not know if anything coming from KH or DY alledgely said by LE was a "fact" or a "question" that they assumed as a fact or an investigative tool. An example would be say that LE asked if TH went to ABC coffee shop. Are they asking because a witness placed TH at ABC coffee shop? Are they asking because of a cell phone ping in the area of ABC and ABC has video surveillance? We just do not know why they asked the question. We also would not know if the question is being repeated as a "fact."

Even the MFH allegations. If a landscaper came forward, LE is going to question the fact that he waited over 9 months. LE would have to check his credibility by questioning KH. They might ask him "do you believe that TH would attempt a MFH?" "Did you have any accidents or strange occurrence during that time?" KH might repeat it as a fact when LE was fishing for information to help them determine the credibility of the claims. Again, we do not know if it was a stated fact or a question that was believed to be true by the person being questioned but is really an investigative question.

We also are getting their interpretation of LE's alledged statements/comments. Any broad statements by LE are going to be interpretated by the individual based on their personal feelings/biases towards the person. A statement by LE that they believe TH knows something is not enough information to know what LE is talking about. Knows something about Kyron or knows something about someone else or knows the weather is? The statement is just too broad. But repeated, people cannot help but interject their opinion into what LE is talking about.

Even court documents that state information as coming from LE cannot be believed. Again, we do not know the context. But more than that, just because an attorney states it does not mean it is true even in court documents.

On a personal note, attorneys lie all the time in motions and/or court papers all the time. That is why they use "allegations." But they also lie directly to Judges with very few doing anything about it. The reason is Judge's know people andd attorneys lie. If they did not lie, Judge's would not have a job. If attorneys are sanctioned/fined for lying and/or misrepresentations, in most cases they have to report those sanctions to the State Bar. The State Bar then has to decide if it is something minor or something they need to take action on. Either way, it goes on the attorney's record. Judge's used to be attorneys. They would not want their records dirtied up with a bunch of minor infractions. Therefore, unless it is an extremely eggregarious lie and/or misrepresentation or you find that rare Judge who will not put up with an nonsense, attorneys lie and/or mispresent facts/allegations to make their clients look better. Just because an attorney says it in a court document does not make it true.

Therefore, IMO, anything attritbuted to LE indirectly by anyone else, we do not know the context, so we cannot state it is a fact. Only LE knows if it truly is a fact and they are not speaking.

These are just my opinions and my opinions only.

I agree with some of your post but with this caveat: IMO, Kyron's parents and LE have formed a working partnership. Something changed at some point...and the parents initial opposition to publicity completely reversed.

I believe there is selective leaking in this case and the parents have been unofficially assigned that part of the strategy.. This is happening to increase pressure on the one person LE believes to be responsible for Kyron's disappearance....his stepmother.

Has anything the parents have said about "evidence" or "events" been officially denied or rebutted by LE?

At the last press conference, the parents and LE seemed to be One Team with one joint effort. I'm reminded that Desiree's husband is a fellow police officer. I would think that might create another scenario where information was shared with a colleague who was also a victim. It's human nature.

Desiree, as his wife, would also be "in the loop." Certainly she and her "ex"have bonded in their love for this child.

Off-topic...I am also reminded every time that I see Desiree that Kyron, due to her health problems, may well be the only child she will ever have. And the woman who might give her solace and/or relief, whose information to police is crucial...is both silent, uncooperative and busy "sext-ing."
 
  • #34
I agree with some of your post but with this caveat: IMO, Kyron's parents and LE have formed a working partnership. Something changed at some point...and the parents initial opposition to publicity completely reversed.

I believe there is selective leaking in this case and the parents have been unofficially assigned that part of the strategy.. This is happening to increase pressure on the one person LE believes to be responsible for Kyron's disappearance....his stepmother.

Has anything the parents have said about "evidence" or "events" been officially denied or rebutted by LE?

At the last press conference, the parents and LE seemed to be One Team with one joint effort. I'm reminded that Desiree's husband is a fellow police officer. I would think that might create another scenario where information was shared with a colleague who was also a victim. It's human nature.

Desiree, as his wife, would also be "in the loop." Certainly she and her "ex"have bonded in their love for this child.

Off-topic...I am also reminded every time that I see Desiree that Kyron, due to her health problems, may well be the only child she will ever have. And the woman who might give her solace and/or relief, whose information to police is crucial...is both silent, uncooperative and busy "sext-ing."

Yes. See the Sheriff's office reference on their site to the July 8 Young/Horman press conference:
http://www.flashalert.net/news.html?id=1276
 
  • #35
I do know that back in June LE stated that they did not want any private searches by the public,because of possible crime scene and evidence concerns.

I do not know if that policy still applies ; it's almost August now...

I wonder if the family has considered calling Tim Miller of TES ? He will not charge to find a missing child. TES has both heat seeking drones and horseback searchers. I realize that the National Guard did some grid searches...but, a line of police cadets searched Rock Creek Park for Chandra Levy. They did a grid search, but did not find her.Her body was in a small incline in the terrain,and a police cadet was only a few feet away...

Are any physical searches being planned ? By anyone ?

I also wonder if the family has considered hiring a PI ? And I mean ANY family member,including TH......

All JMO
 
  • #36
I know TMH hasn't issued a statement to media, personally or via liaison, lawyer or email, disavowing any knowledge of Kyron's whereabouts and pleading for people to keep looking for him and/or to keep an open mind towards other possibilities until such time as she can convince LE that she is a wrongly accused, innocent woman.
 
  • #37
The only thing I know for sure: Kyron is not sleeping in his own bed...:cry:
 
  • #38
I didn't see this mentioned above.

We do know that LE reported TH asked a clerk at the fitness center to let her know when KH visited the gym with their infant daughter as she wanted to kidnap her.
 

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