What do you think the Ramsey's original plan was...

Didn't it snow that night as well? It would've likely been obvious if they left in their car from the garage based on tire tracks out in the driveway.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
They got to get Burke out of the house right away, without any questioning from police, the better to protect him in case he bragged about what had happened, .
They let him leave unsupervised and opened him up to potential questioning by BPD and FBI while not being in his presence. The case was still in the kidnapping phase at this point and they had no idea the level of incompetency involved yet and allowing a 9 year old killer out of their sight risked their entire lives on what Burke would or wouldn't say.

If he killed her or knew things that might bring down the whole house of cards, you'd want him closer to you so they could monitor who gets to talk to him and make sure he kept his mouth shut.

They didn't do this obviously because they had nothing to worry about by letting him leave their house of horrors.


I am one of the few left that still leans more to PDI than BDI. But, I think it was a moment of rage that she deeply regretted instantly. But, self preservation came first.
.
There are a LOT of people who are PDI. This case goes in cycles. Always has, always will. BDI had legs for awhile when Kolar's book was released and then it reverted back to Patsy. BDI is the hot topic due to the latest high profile documentary. It's already starting to die down a bit. The cycle always goes full circle and back to where the spotlight belongs...... Patsy.

BDI sounds plausible on its surface...just like it did a few years ago. Then to keep it going you must start having him do everything...including all the staging and even the writing of the note. We're starting to see some say that now. Then when that appears completely unrealistic, PDI starts dominating the discussion again. Don't believe me? Go read all the discussions from the first time BDI was the main topic. You'll see how all roads finally led back to Patsy.

Like I said, its a cycle this case has always went through with sleuths.
 
They let him leave unsupervised and opened him up to potential questioning by BPD and FBI while not being in his presence. The case was still in the kidnapping phase at this point and they had no idea the level of incompetency involved yet and allowing a 9 year old killer out of their sight risked their entire lives on what Burke would or wouldn't say.

If he killed her or knew things that might bring down the whole house of cards, you'd want him closer to you so they could monitor who gets to talk to him and make sure he kept his mouth shut.

They didn't do this obviously because they had nothing to worry about by letting him leave their house of horrors.


There are a LOT of people who are PDI. This case goes in cycles. Always has, always will. BDI had legs for awhile when Kolar's book was released and then it reverted back to Patsy. BDI is the hot topic due to the latest high profile documentary. It's already starting to die down a bit. The cycle always goes full circle and back to where the spotlight belongs...... Patsy.

BDI sounds plausible on its surface...just like it did a few years ago. Then to keep it going you must start having him do everything...including all the staging and even the writing of the note. We're starting to see some say that now. Then when that appears completely unrealistic, PDI starts dominating the discussion again. Don't believe me? Go read all the discussions from the first time BDI was the main topic. You'll see how all roads finally led back to Patsy.

Like I said, its a cycle this case has always went through with sleuths.

i agree with many of your points here.
i sway 60-40 BDI PDI .
In my opinion there is ALOT to incriminate BR.
more so than PR.
but what does always brings me back to PDI and i always do lol :facepalm:
is the emotional commitment to the horror.
my PDI does not involve lizard lips or BR (sexually abusing JBR) because I can not see for a second no matter how troppo,bizaar mentally unstable she may have been at the time her protecting such a monster. Just looking at pagent pics tells you how important that little girl was to patsy. JB was her whole world.
i dont think she would have held it together the resentment toward anyone who was accountable for the death of her lil princess.
only self protection makes sense of the RN.
as much as people dont want to think about BR molesting JB people dont want to think that a mother would be cruelly punishing a little girl with douching for not being the lady she so desperately was grooming her to be.
it really does explain the chronic injuries down there and PR s absolute certainty that JB was not interferred with as implied by LE.
she also stated in a interview that she had spoken to JB "that the only people who can touch you down there is mummy and the dr."
so she explains away that its ok for her mother to be delving down there but not anyone else.
it also sits with me that lizard lips was so disconnected from family life that what ever PR wanted and said went.
this man stated when asked after his wife of 20 years died did he think about her much.....he said no not really.
two things gets me with that. clarifies to me what a shallow self preserver he is and also that he holds PR responsible for what happened and what they have been through. certainly no fond recalling.
jmho
 
i agree with many of your points here.
i sway 60-40 BDI PDI .
In my opinion there is ALOT to incriminate BR.
more so than PR.
but what does always brings me back to PDI and i always do lol :facepalm:
is the emotional commitment to the horror.
my PDI does not involve lizard lips or BR (sexually abusing JBR) because I can not see for a second no matter how troppo,bizaar mentally unstable she may have been at the time her protecting such a monster. Just looking at pagent pics tells you how important that little girl was to patsy. JB was her whole world.
i dont think she would have held it together the resentment toward anyone who was accountable for the death of her lil princess.
only self protection makes sense of the RN.
as much as people dont want to think about BR molesting JB people dont want to think that a mother would be cruelly punishing a little girl with douching for not being the lady she so desperately was grooming her to be.
it really does explain the chronic injuries down there and PR s absolute certainty that JB was not interferred with as implied by LE.
she also stated in a interview that she had spoken to JB "that the only people who can touch you down there is mummy and the dr."
so she explains away that its ok for her mother to be delving down there but not anyone else.
it also sits with me that lizard lips was so disconnected from family life that what ever PR wanted and said went.
this man stated when asked after his wife of 20 years died did he think about her much.....he said no not really.
two things gets me with that. clarifies to me what a shallow self preserver he is and also that he holds PR responsible for what happened and what they have been through. certainly no fond recalling.
jmho

"lizard lips" :floorlaugh:

I can not see for a second no matter how troppo,bizaar mentally unstable she may have been at the time her protecting such a monster". ..."only self protection makes sense of the RN.

It could be a combination and that is why this pact was made to be taken to their graves. JR molested, PR injured her. Both have/had a reason not to break their silence.
 
i agree with many of your points here.
i sway 60-40 BDI PDI .
In my opinion there is ALOT to incriminate BR.
more so than PR.
but what does always brings me back to PDI and i always do lol :facepalm:
is the emotional commitment to the horror.
my PDI does not involve lizard lips or BR (sexually abusing JBR) because I can not see for a second no matter how troppo,bizaar mentally unstable she may have been at the time her protecting such a monster. Just looking at pagent pics tells you how important that little girl was to patsy. JB was her whole world.
i dont think she would have held it together the resentment toward anyone who was accountable for the death of her lil princess.
only self protection makes sense of the RN.
as much as people dont want to think about BR molesting JB people dont want to think that a mother would be cruelly punishing a little girl with douching for not being the lady she so desperately was grooming her to be.
it really does explain the chronic injuries down there and PR s absolute certainty that JB was not interferred with as implied by LE.
she also stated in a interview that she had spoken to JB "that the only people who can touch you down there is mummy and the dr."
so she explains away that its ok for her mother to be delving down there but not anyone else.
it also sits with me that lizard lips was so disconnected from family life that what ever PR wanted and said went.
this man stated when asked after his wife of 20 years died did he think about her much.....he said no not really.
two things gets me with that. clarifies to me what a shallow self preserver he is and also that he holds PR responsible for what happened and what they have been through. certainly no fond recalling.
jmho

k-mac,
she also stated in a interview that she had spoken to JB "that the only people who can touch you down there is mummy and the dr."
What else did you expect. Oh he can touch her and so can she, but not anyone else?

What about BR was he allowed to touch, JonBenet seemed OK about it, as did Patsy since she knew full well they played doctor?

So again like the Keep your babies close TV appearance Patsy is playing to the gallery.

.
 
i agree with many of your points here.
i sway 60-40 BDI PDI

I know what you mean. Sometimes I ping pong between the two. But what finally did it for me was Kolar laying it all out in his book, and the true bills. Dr. Beuf saying he would burn the records before he released them. Also the fact that when the indictment came out, the foundation with the reward money was dissolved, and the island of privacy built around BR's records.

All these little things!!!! Plus, she was Patsy's living doll and investment. Patsy was living through her and grooming her to be Miss America. I don't believe she would harm her even in a fit of rage. She would however do anything and everything to protect her other child, even if it meant lying to the public and LE, and staging.

If someday I am proven wrong, I'd welcome it. At least we would have an answer.
 
I know what you mean. Sometimes I ping pong between the two. But what finally did it for me was Kolar laying it all out in his book, and the true bills. Dr. Beuf saying he would burn the records before he released them. Also the fact that when the indictment came out, the foundation with the reward money was dissolved, and the island of privacy built around BR's records.

All these little things!!!! Plus, she was Patsy's living doll and investment. Patsy was living through her and grooming her to be Miss America. I don't believe she would harm her even in a fit of rage. She would however do anything and everything to protect her other child, even if it meant lying to the public and LE, and staging.

If someday I am proven wrong, I'd welcome it. At least we would have an answer.

yep i know!
the GJ wording sounds in lay terms BDI .
which makes it the elephant in the room for PDI
:thinking:
round and round we go!!:scared:
 
I don't believe she would harm her even in a fit of rage.
We know of incidents where Patsy would take Jonbenet to the bathroom and the housekeeper would hear her screaming. Patsy wears an incredible mask obviously but I would never believe she wouldn't remove that mask in the privacy of her own home. This woman took pills and drank alcohol, had just went through hell with her cancer, dealt with two small children and god knows how much dysfunction. Patsy wasn't the most stable person in the world and wasn't going to be winning any mother of the year awards any time soon.

Ransom note tells us how she felt about her husband and daughter that night. Needless to say, it wasn't positive.

Of course that doctor would burn all her files. He probably knew some of the things she was going through and didn't report it.

the GJ wording sounds in lay terms BDI .
which makes it the elephant in the room for PDI
Its not the elephant in the room for PDI. More like a pesky little mouse that BDI thinks will chase the elephant(Patsy) out of the room.

THose GJ bills released can be interpreted every which way but loose which is why they have been debated to such an extent.
 
k-mac,

What else did you expect. Oh he can touch her and so can she, but not anyone else?

What about BR was he allowed to touch, JonBenet seemed OK about it, as did Patsy since she knew full well they played doctor?

So again like the Keep your babies close TV appearance Patsy is playing to the gallery.

.

That's one thing the Ramseys had going for them: their God-given talent for BS. They may not have been good criminals, but they knew how to sucker people.
 
That's one thing the Ramseys had going for them: their God-given talent for BS. They may not have been good criminals, but they knew how to sucker people.

SuperDave,
BBM: ITA. From over the pond it seems like the R's played on their millionaire status, along with Patsy's dramatic socialite persona and JR's fake patrician gravitas?

There was a disjunct between the answers they gave and the actual circumstances in the house.

JR is so used to this he is confident enough to amend his and BR's role in their version of events, q.v. Dr Phil. Probably because he knows the case will never come to court.

.
 
SuperDave,
BBM: ITA. From over the pond it seems like the R's played on their millionaire status, along with Patsy's dramatic socialite persona and JR's fake patrician gravitas?

There was a disjunct between the answers they gave and the actual circumstances in the house.

JR is so used to this he is confident enough to amend his and BR's role in their version of events, q.v. Dr Phil. Probably because he knows the case will never come to court.

.

That's a good way of saying it. Patsy had a performing background and John...well, you don't get to be a millionaire businessman without the old razzle-dazzle.
 
They let him leave unsupervised and opened him up to potential questioning by BPD and FBI while not being in his presence. The case was still in the kidnapping phase at this point and they had no idea the level of incompetency involved yet and allowing a 9 year old killer out of their sight risked their entire lives on what Burke would or wouldn't say.

If he killed her or knew things that might bring down the whole house of cards, you'd want him closer to you so they could monitor who gets to talk to him and make sure he kept his mouth shut.

They didn't do this obviously because they had nothing to worry about by letting him leave their house of horrors.


There are a LOT of people who are PDI. This case goes in cycles. Always has, always will. BDI had legs for awhile when Kolar's book was released and then it reverted back to Patsy. BDI is the hot topic due to the latest high profile documentary. It's already starting to die down a bit. The cycle always goes full circle and back to where the spotlight belongs...... Patsy.

BDI sounds plausible on its surface...just like it did a few years ago. Then to keep it going you must start having him do everything...including all the staging and even the writing of the note. We're starting to see some say that now. Then when that appears completely unrealistic, PDI starts dominating the discussion again. Don't believe me? Go read all the discussions from the first time BDI was the main topic. You'll see how all roads finally led back to Patsy.

Like I said, its a cycle this case has always went through with sleuths.

There were only two options with regard to Burke and as I see it, letting Burke take his Nintendo and leave the house was the much safer choice for the Ramseys. He was away from the scene of the crime and away from law enforcement on site at the time and those that might come later. LE that would be constantly directing questions his way, despite his claim that he managed to miss everything that happened. The Ramseys also couldn't know whether JBR's body might be found by exploring officers in spite of the ransom note. Found right near Burke's personal play area which would have led to more questions for him. Before he left, John probably gave him a swift, strong lecture to say he knew nothing if asked. I'm sure the adult friends wouldn't have wanted to upset him with any questions about his sister's abduction and the child friends may have been told nothing.

As far as "swinging", I have personally never swung anywhere and group think is something I try to avoid. I've believed Burke killed his sister and his parents covered up for him since 1997 when I first heard the contents of the note. As more information comes in, and BS suspects and DNA "proof" are both debunked, the stronger my belief. I do agree that some folks may have a tendency to carry their theories past the point of credibility (like the notion that Burke wrote the note) but this doesn't change what has always made the most sense. Burke, an angry and troubled almost 10 year old boy killed his younger and weaker sister either in a fit of age or intentionally. His parents, either to protect their son's future or their own reputations or some combination of both, made really bad choices that night. I don't know exactly where Burke left off and John and Patsy took over, but I think the grand jury probably got it exactly right. And they knew far more than any of us probably ever will.
 
There were only two options with regard to Burke and as I see it, letting Burke take his Nintendo and leave the house was the much safer choice for the Ramseys. He was away from the scene of the crime and away from law enforcement on site at the time and those that might come later. LE that would be constantly directing questions his way, despite his claim that he managed to miss everything that happened. The Ramseys also couldn't know whether JBR's body might be found by exploring officers in spite of the ransom note. Found right near Burke's personal play area which would have led to more questions for him. Before he left, John probably gave him a swift, strong lecture to say he knew nothing if asked. I'm sure the adult friends wouldn't have wanted to upset him with any questions about his sister's abduction and the child friends may have been told nothing.

As far as "swinging", I have personally never swung anywhere and group think is something I try to avoid. I've believed Burke killed his sister and his parents covered up for him since 1997 when I first heard the contents of the note. As more information comes in, and BS suspects and DNA "proof" are both debunked, the stronger my belief. I do agree that some folks may have a tendency to carry their theories past the point of credibility (like the notion that Burke wrote the note) but this doesn't change what has always made the most sense. Burke, an angry and troubled almost 10 year old boy killed his younger and weaker sister either in a fit of age or intentionally. His parents, either to protect their son's future or their own reputations or some combination of both, made really bad choices that night. I don't know exactly where Burke left off and John and Patsy took over, but I think the grand jury probably got it exactly right. And they knew far more than any of us probably ever will.
Thanks, HarmonyE. I'm with you. Early on, I wrestled with who did it. I even sometimes tried to force myself to believe that either PDI or JDI. In thinking through all possible scenarios and in reading the AR, the evidence, books, blogs, forums, etc., I've always come back to BDI.

<<snipped for space>>
BDI sounds plausible on its surface...just like it did a few years ago. Then to keep it going you must start having him do everything...including all the staging and even the writing of the note. We're starting to see some say that now. Then when that appears completely unrealistic, PDI starts dominating the discussion again. Don't believe me? Go read all the discussions from the first time BDI was the main topic. You'll see how all roads finally led back to Patsy.

Like I said, its a cycle this case has always went through with sleuths.

For the BDI theory to work, it doesn't need to include everything, imo. I think it's reasonable to think PR would cover up for BR, which would include staging and writing the RN. What were her words? “If I lost Burke I would have no reason to go on living.”
 
I'm not sure who from inside that house killed JBR, but it was definitely a family member, and they were definitely all in on the cover up, with the possible exception of BR (assuming he didn't accidentally kill her). But what was the plan? Great question... A few points:

1 - JR is a CEO. I've spent a lot of time working with CEO's, and most do not believe normal rules apply to them. They do not expect to be held to the same standards as others, and I can see that he would think that the police would believe whatever he says, so long as it's reasonably credible. Again, CEOs are not use to being told they are liars, or treated as criminals. I think he was reasonably sure everyone would accept whatever they say, they would be treated as grieving parents to whom a terribly tragedy had just occurred (more or less what happened).

2 - The Ramseys had no idea the case would turn into a national spectacle. Keep that in mind when examining their actions. They probably assumed they would need to lie to the police, friends, and family for a day or so, then it would just go away. They never in their wildest dreams (nightmares) assumed it would blow up into a nationwide fixation. Again, he's a CEO, he tells people what happened, they believe him, and they move on.

3 - I am fairly sure they were both in on the cover-up. They never slept that night and probably went back and forth on multiple scenarios, changing their minds, panicking, screaming, crying, you name it... There was never any ONE plan, it was a process that evolved/devolved throughout the evening. And sleep deprived adults, after such a terrible tragedy, do not always think straight, so it's not surprising the eventual plan does not make a tremendous amount of sense.

4 - I think they eventually decided to call it a kidnapping, in order to alert the police, but also give them time to get rid of the body. I think they wanted to get the body out of the house in a suitcase and leave it in a secluded area away from the house, but not so secluded that it wouldn't be quickly found. They had hoped to do it the next day or evening. They had no idea the police would never leave, and during the day they realized that it would be impossible to discretely get the body out of the house. So they had to go with Plan B and find the body, assuming a kidnapping gone wrong... Of course that made no sense with the ransom note, but they had no other options. I also think he staged the scene in the house just in case he wouldn't be able to get the body out of the house. He probably thought there was a decent chance he would never be able to get the body out, or that perhaps it would be discovered by police before he had the time to get the body out.

5 - I think JR was overconfident in his ability to control things. He thought he could stage a kidnapping, and when he had more time he would tie up loose ends, discretely dispose of the body. He was sure the police would believe him and do what he wanted, just like everyone else with whom he interacted did what he wanted. He was wrong about the control, but right about one fundamental fact: everyone more or less believed his story, and hence did not secure the crime scene in any professional way. This is what ultimately saved him.

6 - Why not just pretend someone is sick, cancel their flight, and use that time to dispose of the body? Good question. Perhaps they thought it would look very suspicious. Perhaps they were overconfident in their ability to fool the police, file a report, then get the police out and manage things as necessary. More likely they were just not really able to process much, and thought their best plan was to alert the police immediately to avoid any changes in their original travel plans, which would set off red flags with the police.

7 - I think it's a mistake to assume a master plan. My guess is that the first few hours were spent in total shock, anger, fear, you name it, a roller coaster of emotions. The last couple of hours were spent trying to stage the scene in a plausible way to avoid guilt and buy time.
 
I agree with most of your theory Praharsaurus. My theory is similar (it's on the Member's Theories thread).

I totally agree with the scenario of total panic and hence the confuddled 'evidence' that was created.

I thought JR may have wrapped JBR's body in the white blanket (like a papoose). Then he put her in the trunk of his car.

The plan was once the call didn't come at 10am the police would leave them alone. Then they could bring the body back inside the house and then 'discover' it. "Hey! The kidnapper returned the body to us because we went against their instructions and called the police!"

However, the plan didn't work out quite that way because the police showed no signs of leaving.

He couldn't risk them finding the body in his car so he had to move it.

During the kerfuffle, with Patsy crying and puking and being comforted by her friends and Linda Arndt - John took the opportunity to slip away and remove the body from his car and place it in the wine cellar. (He had not realised that his friend FW had already checked that room earlier).

If JR didn't hide the body in his car then he may have hidden her in the crawl space in the train room, which is why he put a chair in front of the door to (hopefully) prevent people going in there.

When the police showed no signs of going John knew he had to 'discover' the body himself (before his other kids arrived). He went straight to where he left the body.

Then he phoned his pilot. He had to get the family out of there before the police started questioning them (especially Patsy who would probably crack under the slightest pressure).
 
The plan was once the call didn't come at 10am the police would leave them alone. Then they could bring the body back inside the house and then 'discover' it. "Hey! The kidnapper returned the body to us because we went against their instructions and called the police!"

However, the plan didn't work out quite that way because the police showed no signs of leaving.

Yes, very good point, and very possible. Of course we'll never know exactly. But I do think JR underestimated how involved the police would be, especially them remaining at his house the entire day. I think he assumed by linking this to a foreign faction that had taken the child and left, the police would not have any reason to hang around. Having the body in the car also makes a lot of sense, since he probably thought they would never check there. And he had a great excuse to get out of the house: going to the bank to collect the ransom money.

I know it may sound strange to a lot of people, but I can see them thinking this is a decent plan at the time, not really aware of how the police operate. He would just boss them around a bit, like he does all of his employees. "There is nothing more we can do now but wait, we'll call you when they notify us, we need to be alone now, our pastor will come by later, so please wrap up and leave, etc., etc." Thinking he could get rid of them was silly, but as noted he was correct about the most important issue: the police would essentially believe his story, and not treat the house as a possible scene of a murder, with him and his wife as the primary suspects. And that is how they got away with it.
 
Yes I agree. JR may not have thought the police would even want to search the house as his daughter had been 'taken'. Could be why he left the notepad.

And yes, as a CEO he would have been used to being obeyed, his word never being argued with.

You see from his deposition interviews on YouTube how smug he looks, especially when hiding behind his lawyers.

This is an interesting video. I don't know how JR could have looked at those handwriting samples (greeting cards etc.) and not known they were written by his wife.

[video=youtube;yl5Ll3sLFs8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl5Ll3sLFs8[/video]
 
Prahasaurus,

1 - JR is a CEO. I've spent a lot of time working with CEO's, and most do not believe normal rules apply to them. They do not expect to be held to the same standards as others, and I can see that he would think that the police would believe whatever he says, so long as it's reasonably credible. Again, CEOs are not use to being told they are liars, or treated as criminals. I think he was reasonably sure everyone would accept whatever they say, they would be treated as grieving parents to whom a terribly tragedy had just occurred (more or less what happened).

I'm currently reading, Steve Jobs by Walter Isaacson. There Atari founder Nolan Bushnell is quoted as telling Steve Job's Pretend to be in complete control and people will assume that you are.

.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
100
Guests online
517
Total visitors
617

Forum statistics

Threads
625,638
Messages
18,507,383
Members
240,828
Latest member
inspector_gadget_
Back
Top