What was part of the staging,what not?

  • #121
As if JR is going to say something to excite the killer when he doesn't know who it is?? He was under an umbrella of suspicion, not an umbrella of protection.

IF IDI I think he does have a clue.Would explain why he never looked for the killer unlike his spin team who pointed fingers at the kind of JMK,Oliva and Helgoth.JR said it himself,he thinks it was someone known.Don't tell me he didn't have a person in mind though.
 
  • #122
Hi Voynich, this is one of the FFJ threads on the 911 call. I haven't checked the links so I'm not sure if they are all 'live.' There are more threads on this topic which I'll try to locate when I get time:


[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3744"]Listen To Patsy Ramsey's 911 Call. Hear the Truth. Lin Wood Lied. - Forums For Justice[/ame]


ETA: That's the thread title. I actually just posted the link, not wanting to kick off another argument about Lin Wood et al.
 
  • #123
Hi there, Roy,

Thank you once again for your thoughtful and sensitive post. Believe me, I do understand where you are coming from.

WRT ST, I've mentioned on here before that my mother and sisters think there's a new circle of hell waiting for the BPD, with ST marked out for particular attention. My mother can, and does, cite example after example of what she perceives as his misogyny and she thinks that, in his haste to demonstrate how New Age the BPD had become, he was incredibly mean about some people (eg. Kris Gibson's nickname, 'Granola,' has been preserved for posterity despite her having a pretty insignificant role in the case). Similarly, my sister is a rape counsellor and took real exception to his description of a rape in Boulder and in fact stopped reading his book once she got to that passage. I forget what the problem was and I certainly don't know that I agreed with her. However, I do realise that ST wasn't perfect and I think he made some mistakes in the Ramsey case (getting involved with Shapiro for one).


However, when we are talking about what he did to the Ramseys, it's easy to forget what they did to him. For example, DoI was a sustained attack on him and it was published before his book. They try to convey the idea that he was a young idiot who hadn't a clue what he was doing; they refer to him as 'sick' for a particular line of investigation despite the fact that this line was necessary in a crime with a sexual component; they quote John Douglas as thinking that he and Gosage were like red-necked small town cops who resented intrusion from the outside expert; they objected to questions about their private lives; they suggest that it was he alone who thought they were guilty despite the fact that there were plenty of experts who agreed with him and in fact informed his opinion; they mock his thinking that Patsy was flirting with him during the interview (which Patsy proceeded to do during the LKL interview) and; they hint at mental illness in their discussion of his exit from the BPD. The list is endless. Note that this attack was before ST had done much other than resign.

Other things had happened to ST, too, things which can't be pinned on Team Ramsey, but which I'm sure made him think that there were sinister forces at work - the mutilated cat, for example.

The Ramseys were part of a whole phalanx of critics who suggested that money was his main motivation in writing the book. Firstly, were he an especially greedy person, he'd never have gone to work in the public sector. Secondly - and this is bafflingly often overlooked - had money been the prime motivation, he would have agreed to talk to the Globe and the whole blackmailing incident which persuaded him to write the book would never have happened. Finally, given what the Ramsey case had taught him about institutions, writing a book was a more effective way to expose Boulder than complaining to, say, the Governor. In fairness, there may also have been a bit of hubris in there, too, and the thought of a few dollars when he had just quit the only job he was trained for may well have been a consideration. But, hey, no one's claiming he's perfect.

You talk of how little he had to go on but he sat watching Patsy during a 4.5 hour police interview. Another thing that is often overlooked about ST is that he was judged sufficiently adept at interpreting body language and interviewing suspects that he actually taught police academy classes on the subject. He had seen all the evidence, being case curator and affiant. Of course, he may have been wrong aboutPatsy, but he certainly didn't reach his conclusion lightly or frivilously.

The big thing, though, is: what if they did do it and put him through 6 years of hell just for the sake of appearances? I keep giving these local examples for which I apologise - I'm sure there are better American examples of which I'm just not aware. Anyway, I don't know how popular an author Jeffrey Archer is in the US but one of the papers carried a story about his going with a prostitute. At the time, he was very senior in the Conservative Party and a great favourite of Margaret Thatcher. He sued the paper for defamation and won, the prostitute who had been dragged into the whole saga against her will being vilified by the judge who essentially called her a 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 who no man would go with if he was married to the 'fragrant' Mary Archer. A few years later, it was proven that Archer and various associates had lied and that he had in fact been with the prostitute. He went to prison for perjury but not before the prostitute who had been so vilified died so she never saw her name cleared. What if ST lost his home and savings and they did it? Your argument cuts both ways.

Certainly, ideally a public servant wouldn't divulge case information but frankly, by the time he started, pretty much everyone else had been at it for several months. Two wrongs don't make a right, of course, but he probably felt that, if he couldn't beat them, he might as well join them. There is at least one poster on the Internet with FBI connections who knew that they were desperate to recruit him but that they couldn't once he had broken confidentiality on a case - to that extent, you could say he's taken his punishment for any indiscretion.
 
  • #124
Dave, that the Ramseys zoomed in on ST with so elemental a rage was one of the things that kept me off the fence. At one time, I was determined at all costs, to be on the fence, but the LKL incident generally, and their wrath at ST specifically, made me take a position.

ST stated in the police interview that he had a deep personal affinity for John and, in his book, openly doubted that the worst insinuations about John were correct. In fact, some people are of the view that ST gave a pass to JR far too easily. He also had some nice things to say about Patsy's mothering skills and was at pains to point out that she loved her daughter and that something one-off and terrible had happened. He was critical of their approach to the investigation.

Wendy Murphy accused John of molesting JBR and killing her to cover up the offence. Dr Andrew Hodges claimed that John was molesting JBR and that Patsy killed JBR accidentally when she caught John in the act. Simon MacDonagh has written a book setting out the clues that lead to the inevitable conclusion that RDI. There's an ex-FBI guy who has an electronic treatise on the 'Net concluding that John did it. Marc Klaas has been vastly critical of them. In all truth, there have been some really 'out there' suggestions on some of the forums which caused Lin Wood to do nothing more than call case-followers pitiable sad acts.

There's an aphorism about the accusation that is true making you angrier than the false accusation, sort of a variation on the lady protesting too much.
Frankly, their pursuit of ST has probably done more to convince some people that they had guilty knowledge of JBR's death than anything else to happen in this case.
 
  • #125
Hi there, Roy,

Thank you once again for your thoughtful and sensitive post. Believe me, I do understand where you are coming from.

WRT ST, I've mentioned on here before that my mother and sisters think there's a new circle of hell waiting for the BPD, with ST marked out for particular attention. My mother can, and does, cite example after example of what she perceives as his misogyny and she thinks that, in his haste to demonstrate how New Age the BPD had become, he was incredibly mean about some people (eg. Kris Gibson's nickname, 'Granola,' has been preserved for posterity despite her having a pretty insignificant role in the case). Similarly, my sister is a rape counsellor and took real exception to his description of a rape in Boulder and in fact stopped reading his book once she got to that passage. I forget what the problem was and I certainly don't know that I agreed with her. However, I do realise that ST wasn't perfect and I think he made some mistakes in the Ramsey case (getting involved with Shapiro for one).


However, when we are talking about what he did to the Ramseys, it's easy to forget what they did to him. For example, DoI was a sustained attack on him and it was published before his book. They try to convey the idea that he was a young idiot who hadn't a clue what he was doing; they refer to him as 'sick' for a particular line of investigation despite the fact that this line was necessary in a crime with a sexual component; they quote John Douglas as thinking that he and Gosage were like red-necked small town cops who resented intrusion from the outside expert; they objected to questions about their private lives; they suggest that it was he alone who thought they were guilty despite the fact that there were plenty of experts who agreed with him and in fact informed his opinion; they mock his thinking that Patsy was flirting with him during the interview (which Patsy proceeded to do during the LKL interview) and; they hint at mental illness in their discussion of his exit from the BPD. The list is endless. Note that this attack was before ST had done much other than resign.

Other things had happened to ST, too, things which can't be pinned on Team Ramsey, but which I'm sure made him think that there were sinister forces at work - the mutilated cat, for example.

The Ramseys were part of a whole phalanx of critics who suggested that money was his main motivation in writing the book. Firstly, were he an especially greedy person, he'd never have gone to work in the public sector. Secondly - and this is bafflingly often overlooked - had money been the prime motivation, he would have agreed to talk to the Globe and the whole blackmailing incident which persuaded him to write the book would never have happened. Finally, given what the Ramsey case had taught him about institutions, writing a book was a more effective way to expose Boulder than complaining to, say, the Governor. In fairness, there may also have been a bit of hubris in there, too, and the thought of a few dollars when he had just quit the only job he was trained for may well have been a consideration. But, hey, no one's claiming he's perfect.

You talk of how little he had to go on but he sat watching Patsy during a 4.5 hour police interview. Another thing that is often overlooked about ST is that he was judged sufficiently adept at interpreting body language and interviewing suspects that he actually taught police academy classes on the subject. He had seen all the evidence, being case curator and affiant. Of course, he may have been wrong aboutPatsy, but he certainly didn't reach his conclusion lightly or frivilously.

The big thing, though, is: what if they did do it and put him through 6 years of hell just for the sake of appearances? I keep giving these local examples for which I apologise - I'm sure there are better American examples of which I'm just not aware. Anyway, I don't know how popular an author Jeffrey Archer is in the US but one of the papers carried a story about his going with a prostitute. At the time, he was very senior in the Conservative Party and a great favourite of Margaret Thatcher. He sued the paper for defamation and won, the prostitute who had been dragged into the whole saga against her will being vilified by the judge who essentially called her a 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 who no man would go with if he was married to the 'fragrant' Mary Archer. A few years later, it was proven that Archer and various associates had lied and that he had in fact been with the prostitute. He went to prison for perjury but not before the prostitute who had been so vilified died so she never saw her name cleared. What if ST lost his home and savings and they did it? Your argument cuts both ways.

Certainly, ideally a public servant wouldn't divulge case information but frankly, by the time he started, pretty much everyone else had been at it for several months. Two wrongs don't make a right, of course, but he probably felt that, if he couldn't beat them, he might as well join them. There is at least one poster on the Internet with FBI connections who knew that they were desperate to recruit him but that they couldn't once he had broken confidentiality on a case - to that extent, you could say he's taken his punishment for any indiscretion.



Sophie,

Thanks for your opinion on this. And I am aware that ST was not the only one with this opinion.
 
  • #126
As if JR is going to say something to excite the killer when he doesn't know who it is??

Like I always say, HOTYH: I don't have a stupid button.

He was under an umbrella of suspicion, not an umbrella of protection.

I use the term Mutally Assured Protection.
 
  • #127
Dave, that the Ramseys zoomed in on ST with so elemental a rage was one of the things that kept me off the fence. At one time, I was determined at all costs, to be on the fence, but the LKL incident generally, and their wrath at ST specifically, made me take a position.

I KNOW the feeling.

There's an aphorism about the accusation that is true making you angrier than the false accusation, sort of a variation on the lady protesting too much.

Where I grew up, we used the phrase "a hit dog barks."
 
  • #128
  • #129
OK you don't have a stupid button.

Easy there. Perhaps an explanation is in order. What I mean is, let's say you're right. If the Rs are innocent, then they would have a vested interest in not making the killer angry enough to come back. Okay.

BUT, the way I look at it is, if it were me, that's EXACTLY what I would do. Because it might draw him/her out. When people get angry, they don't think very clearly. They make mistakes.
 
  • #130
Easy there. Perhaps an explanation is in order. What I mean is, let's say you're right. If the Rs are innocent, then they would have a vested interest in not making the killer angry enough to come back. Okay.

BUT, the way I look at it is, if it were me, that's EXACTLY what I would do. Because it might draw him/her out. When people get angry, they don't think very clearly. They make mistakes.

I agree.JR on LKL.:)
 
  • #131

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