What's in this cellar room photo?

[Ames]

IMO There wasn't any, it would have been noted at autopsy.

I am awareof what you're talking about, sometimes clear spinal fluid also is leaked out the ear canals with a severe head injury. Just didn't happen in this case.

Tan mucus was found on her, as in blood tinged. How do you know that she didn't bleed from those places> I researched this...that is normal to bleed from the ears, nose, or mouth....or all the above, after a severe blow to the head, and JB's blow was definately severe. She could have been wiped clean from those places, just like she was on her private area, before the size 12 panties were placed on her.

 

[Ames]

I personally think it's because someone had helped JonBenet in the bathroom earlier that day and would probably remember that she had on the Wednesday Bloomies. I don't know if it was P or J that replaced them with the size 12's though because that certainly seems like something a man would do because a woman would know they were way too big for her.

I totally agree!!!

 

[Ames]

Does anybody know where I can find the interview where they are discussing JB's bed and out of the blue, Patsy says, "I don't see any blood, do you"? I know I read that somewhere and now I can't find it. I would like to see that whole discourse again to see if I can determine what she may have been afraid of.

Yes, you are correct...it was in one of Patsy's interviews. I will try and find it...I have posted it here, and on FFJ awhile back. She is shown a picture of the curtains behind JB's bed...and she says..out of blue as you say..."I don't see any blood there, do you?"

 

[UKGuy]

Does anybody know where I can find the interview where they are discussing JB's bed and out of the blue, Patsy says, "I don't see any blood, do you"? I know I read that somewhere and now I can't find it. I would like to see that whole discourse again to see if I can determine what she may have been afraid of.

joeskidbeck,
Here you are:

Patsy's 1998 BPD Interview Excerpt

19 TRIP DEMUTH: Here are more shots of the bed.

20 I don't know if you would look at the mattress or the

21 bed spread. That is 121. Is this surprising to see a

22 video by the bed in picture 121 or was that normal?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: She watched videos a lot and

24 there was a camera. I don't know what it is. I don't

25 know.

0374

1 I was looking at the bed spread to see if

2 that was on the right way.

3 TOM HANEY: 124 is a little closer. Two,

4 three, four, it looks like five are all of the bed.

5 Why don't you look those over.

6 PATSY RAMSEY: This looks like it is on

7 right. This is kind of strange. It kind of went out

8 and there is a flap that came down over the pillow.

9 TRIP DEMUTH: When you look at 125 you can

10 see the blanket in that.

11 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I cannot.

12 TRIP DEMUTH: Let me ask you about this in

13 125.

14 PATSY RAMSEY: That is the (inaudible).

15 TRIP DEMUTH: Is that unusual to be hanging

16 over the door?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Usually they are kind

18 of tucked back.

19 TRIP DEMUTH: Five and four.

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

21 TOM HANEY: That is the material that pulls

22 the drapery, it pulls it back.

23 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I don't see any blood

24 or anything, do you?

25 TOM HANEY: We skipped ahead to 134. We can

0375

1 come back to these, but other than what we talked about

2 on 122, three and four, five, you don't have any

3 thoughts at this time from what you have noticed?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: No, not unless you know the

5 bag (inaudible).

6 TOM HANEY: We will look at that later.

7 PATSY RAMSEY: That is Barbara's coat hanging

8 there.

9 TRIP DEMUTH: That is in photo 134.

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Here. Remember, I saw that

11 before. This looks familiar.

12 TRIP DEMUTH: A black and white pattern coat.

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Green and white, like a

14 checker kind of thing.

15 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Nothing out of place

16 there?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

18 TRIP DEMUTH: Photo 137.

19 TOM HANEY: 134, five, six and seven --

20 TRIP DEMUTH: I have a question for you, you

21 spent a lot of time in this room, did you not?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

23 TRIP DEMUTH: This photo was taken later, I'm

24 not exactly sure when, but can you address this dish

25 that is on the -- what you call it, end table?

0376

1 PATSY RAMSEY: That is a little China bowl.

2 TRIP DEMUTH: Uh-huh.

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Can't tell what is in it. It

4 looks like oranges or something, or apples.

5 TRIP DEMUTH: When you were in this room did

6 people feed you?

7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I think Priscilla

8 brought in some things.

9 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you remember what that was?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: I remember somebody talking

11 about going to get bagels. You know, I was so -- I

12 kept looking at that.

13 TRIP DEMUTH: You don't recall what was in

14 that dish?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know if it is fruit or

16 something.

17 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you have any memory?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks to me like Priscilla

19 brought in some fruit. Somebody talked about going to

20 get bagels. I think she brought that.

21 That was unusual because I don't usually use

22 that bowl for serving. It is like a decorative piece.

23 I would not have put anything in that bowl.

24 TRIP DEMUTH: I'm curious, do you remember

25 what kind of fruit you were nibbling on?

0377

1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think I nibbled on

2 anything. I lost my appetite.

3 TRIP DEMUTH: What was brought in, do you

4 remember?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

6 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.

7 TOM HANEY: About 2:38, let's take a ten or

8 so minute break now. I think we are finished, or we

9 can come back another day until about 4:00, 5:00, 6:00

10 or 7:00.

 

[UKGuy]

OH okay. Sounds like she may have been wiped down with that Barbie nightgown...or was wearing it at some point.

I only see what appears to be...an outline of a doll. I just wished that we could get a better picture of it.

Ames,

I reckon she was wearing it. Although it may have been part of prior staging. I reckon there was a minimum of two staging events.

I do not assume the barbie nightgown arrived by accident in the wine-cellar, this is not a new assumption on my part but the existence of the barbie-doll simply strengthens it.

.

 

[UKGuy]

I personally think it's because someone had helped JonBenet in the bathroom earlier that day and would probably remember that she had on the Wednesday Bloomies. I don't know if it was P or J that replaced them with the size 12's though because that certainly seems like something a man would do because a woman would know they were way too big for her.

joeskidbeck,

Yes could be that. But whomever redressed her in the size-12's would have to know this explicitly, otherwise why make such a big deal of it?

That is either the redresser went looking for a Wednesday pair in her underwear drawer, and none was available, or the redresser simply knew in advance. I'm guessing the redresser took a look since Patsy stated she was in JonBenet's bathroom looking for longjohns etc.

Also as has been mentioned before no intruder, even John or Burke would likely not know one of the wrapped gifts contained underwear, never mind day-of-the-week underwear?

So the Wednesday day-of-the-week must be an important clue if the redresser was willing supply the day-of-the-week feature but not the size-4 or size-6 aspect, and knew the latter was available upstairs.


.

 

[joeskidbeck]

joeskidbeck,

Yes could be that. But whomever redressed her in the size-12's would have to know this explicitly, otherwise why make such a big deal of it?

That is either the redresser went looking for a Wednesday pair in her underwear drawer, and none was available, or the redresser simply knew in advance. I'm guessing the redresser took a look since Patsy stated she was in JonBenet's bathroom looking for longjohns etc.

Also as has been mentioned before no intruder, even John or Burke would likely not know one of the wrapped gifts contained underwear, never mind day-of-the-week underwear?

So the Wednesday day-of-the-week must be an important clue if the redresser was willing supply the day-of-the-week feature but not the size-4 or size-6 aspect, and knew the latter was available upstairs.


.

Yes, a very important clue. We don't need to overlook the fact that Patsy could have told John where to find those Bloomies. I think he would have gotten them out and put them on JB without one thought of them being way too big. I am beginning to have the opinion that both were involved with him doing the staging and her doing the writing of the rn. This would absolutely insure that neither would ever rat the other out, but for this to be the case, I believe prior sexual abuse is a must. I don't think John would have put his neck on the block unless Patsy had something big on him.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, a very important clue. We don't need to overlook the fact that Patsy could have told John where to find those Bloomies. I think he would have gotten them out and put them on JB without one thought of them being way too big. I am beginning to have the opinion that both were involved with him doing the staging and her doing the writing of the rn. This would absolutely insure that neither would ever rat the other out, but for this to be the case, I believe prior sexual abuse is a must. I don't think John would have put his neck on the block unless Patsy had something big on him.

joeskidbeck,

Then some of John's touch-dna might be on the size-12's or even on the gift wrapping paper?

From memory part of the paintbrush handle is still missing. Did either John or Patsy use this to injure JonBenet? Why would Steve Thomas refer to a splinter being found inside JonBenet?

http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

Any injury caused by, say the paintbrush, is distinct from digital penetration and sexual contact. Note Coroner Meyer picks his words carefully. I'm assuming the paintbrush handle did not have the same diameter of a finger.

With Patsy's fibers found entwined in the knotting of the ligature, was it Patsy who injured JonBenet internally, or was it John? With John's Israeli cotton fibers found on JonBenet's genital area, then I reckon both parents are in the frame for the staging.

Along with Burke's silence on what JonBenet was wearing that night, if he sipped tea as JonBenet snacked pineapple, and Don Paugh's silence. Then I reckon a case can be made for collusion across the generations.

.

 

[CathyR]

joeskidbeck,



From memory part of the paintbrush handle is still missing. Did either John or Patsy use this to injure JonBenet? Why would Steve Thomas refer to a splinter being found inside JonBenet?

He was most likely referring to the birefringent material that he assumed was a splinter as wood from the paintbrush would be birefringent material. So would the paint from the handle as well as a slew of other materials.

I think additional testing said it was paint from the handle of the brush. I am assuming the paint is the factory paint put on the brush handle at the time of manufacture and not paint that was used to paint with the brush.

 

[CathyR]

I am watching In Session and have been really upset over the Pettit case. One of the intruders had a very scary habit. He would break into homes and hang around, hiding in closets, basements, etc. This info is coming out during the punishment phase of his trial. He has been represented as not being as responsible or dangerous as his partner in crime. This info is being used to impeach those witnesses and came from the offender himself. He talked quite a bit about his criminal activities and his adeptness at not being detected by people even when he was in their home.

Makes me want to search my house every time I leave and come back. I mean under beds, in closets any place someone could hide. I wonder if his creepy behavior is more common than we think.

 

[UKGuy]

joeskidbeck,



From memory part of the paintbrush handle is still missing. Did either John or Patsy use this to injure JonBenet? Why would Steve Thomas refer to a splinter being found inside JonBenet?

He was most likely referring to the birefringent material that he assumed was a splinter as wood from the paintbrush would be birefringent material. So would the paint from the handle as well as a slew of other materials.

I think additional testing said it was paint from the handle of the brush. I am assuming the paint is the factory paint put on the brush handle at the time of manufacture and not paint that was used to paint with the brush.

CathyR,

Interesting. Do you have a source for the paint analysis?

.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Now there are three things that I have seen (or heard) referenced as the birefringent material:

1- Talcum (Cyril Wecht)
2- Splinter from paintbrush (Steve Thomas)
3- Paint from paintbrush (CathyR-TBA)

I wonder which it was or is it possible that all three may have been present in very small quantities?

 

[CathyR]

Kids at Christmas will be kids.......
I wonder if JBR and Burke "peeked" at presents. Burke would be looking for games to go with his new gaming system especially if he knew he was getting one, or was looking for evidence he was getting one. Small packages like the underwear would have been wrapped in would be his target. If JBR knew this she might have threatened him with revealing that fact, you don't look for games if you don't know you are getting a system or are looking for proof you are getting one.

Too bad they didn't know my kids. My sons and daughter could tell you which boxes had clothes in them and which did not. They were too good and knew from feeling the package and shaking it. I tried many ways to disguise the clothes but they always knew. One give away for a toy is an unusual shaped package. Almost all boxes are rectangular or square and something shaped other than that was an advertisement to them. The weight of the package of clothing ,even a heavy coat ,isn't heavy when compared to a toy in same size box.
Were the packages labeled?
If not then the kids thought or could have thought, OK this is something I am not supposed to know is for me. Why, why hide who this is for. Because they don't want me to open it until something else is opened first, then they will give me the gift.
Opening a game for a certain gaming system you don't already own is pretty much a give away that you are getting that system.
Patsy stated somewhere that she had purchased the underwear for her niece but didn't get the box to send to Atlanta together in time.
She could have been threatening Burke and JBR during the holidays to remove gifts from the tree if they didn't behave. She might have gone as far as removing the Atlanta gifts as a ruse she was taking their gifts away. She removed the labels as she knew she was going to recycle the gifts and stored them in basement. The kids snuck down there and peeked, before Christmas or after just to see what they "lost".
I wish we knew if the packages were labeled and if the packages were tested for fingerprints. It may not be important as to the final outcome of the case but that is what evidence gathering is for.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I'm sure the packages that were wrapped by FAO Schwartz were labeled when they were wrapped. Since the wrapping paper is the same on all the packages it would have been he11 to determine what went to who and FAO is not a store that would make that kind of mistake.
Another thing I've always wondered about: Did she have FAO wrap the Bloomies for her niece? What a bummer that would have been for Jenny. Just think, she has a gift that appears to be from the most famous toy store in the country and opens it to find panties. Granted, they were Bloomies, but this still would have been a letdown for any child. Then again, is it stated anywhere that the panties were wrapped by FAO? They could have been wrapped at Bloomingdales or by Patsy herself. If anyone knows for sure, I would love to find out.
As for myself, I have always coded my grandchildren's Christmas gifts so that I would know who it was for and in what order they needed to be opened. This way, the kids never know which package is theirs and the anticipation is the best part!
From what I understand on that Christmas night, the only packages left in the basement were for Atlanta family members and a few that Patsy had stored for Burke's birthday. The kids could have gone down there looking but I have to wonder why they would when they have all the new stuff they had just received that morning to play with.

 

[joeskidbeck]

My comments are bolded:

joeskidbeck,

Then some of John's touch-dna might be on the size-12's or even on the gift wrapping paper?
This is where Patsy's latex gloves came in really handy. She had them for hair dying (I also have a box for this same reason). So, probably no prints or dna from John.

From memory part of the paintbrush handle is still missing. Did either John or Patsy use this to injure JonBenet? Why would Steve Thomas refer to a splinter being found inside JonBenet?

http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm

The birefringent material is really starting to bug me. I want to know exactly what it was!

Any injury caused by, say the paintbrush, is distinct from digital penetration and sexual contact. Note Coroner Meyer picks his words carefully. I'm assuming the paintbrush handle did not have the same diameter of a finger.
Do we know the diameter of the paintbrush handle? This is where I am relying on his remarks for my conclusion of abuse. If he means "finger" when he says "digital", then I believe prior abuse is what he meant. Like everyone else in this case, Dr. Meyer was obviously intimidated by someone or something, else he would have been a lot clearer in his report.

With Patsy's fibers found entwined in the knotting of the ligature, was it Patsy who injured JonBenet internally, or was it John? With John's Israeli cotton fibers found on JonBenet's genital area, then I reckon both parents are in the frame for the staging.
It would seem that way. This is such a horrific scenario that I believe it is what makes a lot of people believe IDI and that is exactly what the Ramseys would have intended.

Along with Burke's silence on what JonBenet was wearing that night, if he sipped tea as JonBenet snacked pineapple, and Don Paugh's silence. Then I reckon a case can be made for collusion across the generations.
I absolutely agree with you on this statement!

.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm sure the packages that were wrapped by FAO Schwartz were labeled when they were wrapped. Since the wrapping paper is the same on all the packages it would have been he11 to determine what went to who and FAO is not a store that would make that kind of mistake.
Another thing I've always wondered about: Did she have FAO wrap the Bloomies for her niece? What a bummer that would have been for Jenny. Just think, she has a gift that appears to be from the most famous toy store in the country and opens it to find panties. Granted, they were Bloomies, but this still would have been a letdown for any child. Then again, is it stated anywhere that the panties were wrapped by FAO? They could have been wrapped at Bloomingdales or by Patsy herself. If anyone knows for sure, I would love to find out.
As for myself, I have always coded my grandchildren's Christmas gifts so that I would know who it was for and in what order they needed to be opened. This way, the kids never know which package is theirs and the anticipation is the best part!
From what I understand on that Christmas night, the only packages left in the basement were for Atlanta family members and a few that Patsy had stored for Burke's birthday. The kids could have gone down there looking but I have to wonder why they would when they have all the new stuff they had just received that morning to play with.

joeskidbeck,
I'm guessing so.

Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview Excerpt

1 Q. The underwear that she was
2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you
3 know where they come from as far as what
4 store?
5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.
6 Q. Who purchased those?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased
9 them?
10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.
11 Q. In the fall of 1996, how many
12 trips did you make to New York?
13 A. Two, I believe.
14 Q. Do you recall, and again, the
15 same, same qualification I gave you when we
16 started, which is, I understand that you are
17 not going to give me exact dates, but the
18 two trips you made, did you make those with
19 different groups of people?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The first trip, who was that trip
22 with?
23 A. The first trip was a
24 mother-daughter trip with my mother Nedra
25 Paugh, my sister Pam Paugh, friends Susan
0079
1 Flanders from Charlevoix, Michigan, and her
2 daughter and a friend of Susan's, Ms.
3 Kirkpatrick I believe was her name, and her
4 daughter, and JonBenet and myself.
5 Q. And the second trip you made was?
6 A. The second trip we made was with
7 Glen and Susan Stein.
8 Q. Is that the trip -- which trip
9 was the November trip?
10 A. With the children.
11 Q. Was that -- that is the first
12 trip?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the second trip that you and
15 your husband and the Steins took, was that
16 also November, but later in the month, or
17 was that a December trip?
18 A. I think it was December.
19 Q. And maybe this will help jog your
20 memory as to time. I believe that was the
21 time of the Christmas parade in Boulder.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you out of town?
0080
1 A. I remember that.
2 Q. Which of those two trips did you
3 purchase the Bloomi's?
4 A. The first trip.
5 Q. Was it something that was selected
6 by JonBenet?
7 A. I believe so.
8 Q. Was it your intention, when you
9 purchased those, for those to be for her,
10 not for some third party as a gift?
11 A. I bought some things that were
12 gifts and some things for her. So I
13 don't --
14 Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is
15 your best recollection that the purchase of
16 the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the
17 week, was something that you bought for her,
18 whether it was just I am buying underwear
19 for my kids or these are special, here's a
20 present, that doesn't matter, but it was your
21 intention that she would wear those?
22 A. Well, I think that I bought a
23 package of the -- they came in a package of
24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
25 I think I bought a package to give to my
0081
1 niece.
2 Q. Which niece was that?
3 A. Jenny Davis.
4 Q. They came in, if you recall, do
5 you remember that they come in kind of a
6 plastic see-through plastic container.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. They are rolled up?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So if I understand you correctly,
11 you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your
12 niece, and one for JonBenet?
13 A. I am not sure if I bought one or
14 two.
15 Q. Do you remember what size they
16 were?
17 A. Not exactly.

Patsy's 1998 BPD Interview Excerpt

2 TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be

3 opened?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these

5 came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when

6 JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them

7 sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift

8 wrapping.

9 So like right here it looks like I kind of

10 peeled a little back to see what was in it because I

11 couldn't remember what was in them.

12 TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone

13 partially, that was --

14 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done

15 that to peek to see what was in there.

16 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.

17 TOM HANEY: Where did you do the bulk of your

18 Christmas shopping, the items you put in there?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, all of this stuff right

20 here was from FAO Schwartz in New York. JonBenet got a

21 bicycle that year. I got a university bicycle, and she

22 got a twin doll which I mail ordered, and --

23 TOM HANEY: Did she get to ride her bike?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: She got to ride her bike.

25 TOM HANEY: Christmas day?

0394

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Out in the back driveway.

2 TOM HANEY: You don't remember the weather

3 that day, was --

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Sunny, nice.

5 TOM HANEY: So did she get much time on it?

6 Was it training wheel equipped or was she able to ride

7 a two wheeler by herself?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think it had training

9 wheels. I think it did.

.

 

[joeskidbeck]

She certainly sounds like she had FAO wrap the Bloomies in this interview. I don't get that at all. Maybe it's just me but that wrapping paper would have been misleading to Jenny. Guess I'm just being petty.
I wonder if Tom Haney had somewhere he was leading with the questions about JonBenet getting to ride her bike or if he, like most of us, was being compassionate towards JonBenet, sad that she didn't get to enjoy her new bike.

 

[madeleine]

Confusion again?He doesn't recognize the tape he took off?What's going on here.....

6 JOHN RAMSEY: -- 149, that was like
7 (INAUDIBLE) what looks like a big piece of duct
8 tape. That doesn't look like that tape I took off
9 JonBenet's mouth.
10 LOU SMIT: Okay. And why do you say that?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, because as I recall,
12 it was black. It was like a little larger than
13 electrical tape in width. And it struck me, and as
14 I thought about it later, as the kind of tape you
15 might use in sailing to wrap around the stanchion
16 or something.
17 LOU SMIT: The black tape?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
19 LOU SMIT: Have you used that type of
20 tape on (INAUDIBLE)?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't recognize it.
22 But in this picture, it looks like a piece of duct
23 tape. A big piece of duct tape. And that's not
24 what I remember.25 LOU SMIT: Okay. That's on photograph number --
0291
1 JOHN RAMSEY: 149. Cause it was like stuck
2 to the blanket almost in this picture.
3 LOU SMIT: What are you thinking?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: It's just hard to look at these,
5 that's all. Basically JonBenet was right here.
6 LOU SMIT: If you want to get off this,
7 we can?
8 JOHN RAMSEY: No, that's okay. Sorry.
9 LOU SMIT: You touched on something, you know,
10 and I was going to ask you about that tape later
11 on and the cord. But you mentioned that the tape
12 that you took off JonBenet, we're trying to
13 determine if in fact you could have been in
14 contact with that type of tape. And you mentioned
15 something about that's the type you seen on a
16 stanchion.
17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it's just it wasn't
18 a tape that looked familiar to me, or it looked
19 like it wasn't torn, it was cut perfectly,
20 literally, that it fit her mouth. It was black, it
21 wider than electrical tape, but not as wide as
22 duct tape. I mean I know what duct tape is; it
23 wasn't duct tape.
24 Just thinking about it later, where do you get
25 this kind of tape? It's a little wider, and I've
0292
1 seen it in white before. It's kind of a utility
2 tape that you can use on a sailboat in boating.
3 LOU SMIT: Okay.




-----------

this is a pic of the tape I found at FFJ.
doesn't look like black to me..........

:waitasec:

 

[joeskidbeck]

For me it would have been hard to remember anything about that tape if I had just found my daughter dead in the basement. I bet he didn't mean for that remark about the tape being used on a boat to slip out. That was a big no-no.

 

[MurriFlower]

-----------

this is a pic of the tape I found at FFJ.
doesn't look like black to me..........

:waitasec:

Are you sure this is the tape from her mouth? What is the measurement on the ruler can anyone see?