What's in this cellar room photo?

[SunnieRN]

I could be incorrect and if I am, may God forgive me, but I really believe the type of sexual abuse we are talking about is more like childs play. I think an adult would have done more to JB then was done in this case. Especially if it was someone outside of the family. Also the use of an object (the paintbrush), makes me even more certain of that feeling of a child experimenting. I think Burke was exploring sexuality and Jon Benet was 'handy'. To take this a step further, maybe for the first time he hurt her this night and she threatened to tell.

As I said above, this is IMO only and based on experiences both personal and in child abuse cases I have observed in nursing.

I could then understand the anger in JR's voice during the 911 call as well as the fact that they wanted Burke well away from questions and inquiries. I wonder if he said anything to his friend or his friends parents when he was taken out of the house?

 

[Toltec]

Confusion again?He doesn't recognize the tape he took off?What's going on here.....

6 JOHN RAMSEY: -- 149, that was like
7 (INAUDIBLE) what looks like a big piece of duct
8 tape. That doesn't look like that tape I took off
9 JonBenet's mouth.
10 LOU SMIT: Okay. And why do you say that?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, because as I recall,
12 it was black. It was like a little larger than
13 electrical tape in width. And it struck me, and as
14 I thought about it later, as the kind of tape you
15 might use in sailing to wrap around the stanchion
16 or something.
17 LOU SMIT: The black tape?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
19 LOU SMIT: Have you used that type of
20 tape on (INAUDIBLE)?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't recognize it.
22 But in this picture, it looks like a piece of duct
23 tape. A big piece of duct tape. And that's not
24 what I remember.25 LOU SMIT: Okay. That's on photograph number --
0291
1 JOHN RAMSEY: 149. Cause it was like stuck
2 to the blanket almost in this picture.
3 LOU SMIT: What are you thinking?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: It's just hard to look at these,
5 that's all. Basically JonBenet was right here.
6 LOU SMIT: If you want to get off this,
7 we can?
8 JOHN RAMSEY: No, that's okay. Sorry.
9 LOU SMIT: You touched on something, you know,
10 and I was going to ask you about that tape later
11 on and the cord. But you mentioned that the tape
12 that you took off JonBenet, we're trying to
13 determine if in fact you could have been in
14 contact with that type of tape. And you mentioned
15 something about that's the type you seen on a
16 stanchion.
17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it's just it wasn't
18 a tape that looked familiar to me, or it looked
19 like it wasn't torn, it was cut perfectly,
20 literally, that it fit her mouth. It was black, it
21 wider than electrical tape, but not as wide as
22 duct tape. I mean I know what duct tape is; it
23 wasn't duct tape.
24 Just thinking about it later, where do you get
25 this kind of tape? It's a little wider, and I've
0292
1 seen it in white before. It's kind of a utility
2 tape that you can use on a sailboat in boating.
3 LOU SMIT: Okay.




-----------

this is a pic of the tape I found at FFJ.
doesn't look like black to me..........

:waitasec:

Is this the actual tape used on JonBenet? I have never seen it before.

John says that the tape was not the one he remembers seeing on JonBenet, but is able to identify it as being used on the stanchion. Where would John keep this kind of tape? In the basement or did it come from Patsy's paint tote? I wonder if the paint tote was examined for tape residue.

 

[DeeDee249]

She certainly sounds like she had FAO wrap the Bloomies in this interview. I don't get that at all. Maybe it's just me but that wrapping paper would have been misleading to Jenny. Guess I'm just being petty.
I wonder if Tom Haney had somewhere he was leading with the questions about JonBenet getting to ride her bike or if he, like most of us, was being compassionate towards JonBenet, sad that she didn't get to enjoy her new bike.

My impression is that the panties were INCLUDED in another present for Jenny. Not that they were wrapped alone. Actually, as Patsy said she bought other gifts from FAO, they would probably be wiling to include a gift bought elsewhere in a box they were wrapping. Jenny was about 12, right? Depending on the child, of course, toys from FAO might not be expected anyway. But they do sell video stuff and things appropriate for older kids.

 

[cynic]

Are you sure this is the tape from her mouth? What is the measurement on the ruler can anyone see?

That’s a metric photo evidence ruler with millimeter and centimeter increments.
The tape is 2 inches wide by approximately 5 inches long. Because there is a section that’s folded over, it’s difficult to be too precise with respect to the length.
It’s black duct tape, with the white/silver adhesive side up in this photo.

 

[MurriFlower]

That’s a metric photo evidence ruler with millimeter and centimeter increments.
The tape is 2 inches wide by approximately 5 inches long. Because there is a section that’s folded over, it’s difficult to be too precise with respect to the length.
It’s black duct tape, with the white/silver adhesive side up in this photo.

Thanks cynic

So, if we are looking at the sticky side, then we should be able to see something adhering to it, like her mucus, the fibers and hairs that were supposedly stuck on there? There was also supposed to be a clearly visible 'perfect set of lip prints' that I cannot see. I can't help but think that this is the un-sticky side because it is shiny.

The area marked Stain B -- I can't see anything on there. There is also a line to the black area and a pen mark around a section of it on the LHS. Presumably this is Stain A?

I notice also it has been torn not cut.

This isn't the type of woven material I imagined from the evidence and our previous discussions. Just looking it up in my supplier's catalogue, and with the horizontal stripes, it is called "one way filament tape" and is fibreglass strands with polypropylene backing.

Hmmmm maybe this was what JR was shown and why he said it didn't look like the tape he took off her mouth.

 

[DeeDee249]

Thanks cynic

So, if we are looking at the sticky side, then we should be able to see something adhering to it, like her mucus, the fibers and hairs that were supposedly stuck on there? There was also supposed to be a clearly visible 'perfect set of lip prints' that I cannot see. I can't help but think that this is the un-sticky side because it is shiny.

The area marked Stain B -- I can't see anything on there. There is also a line to the black area and a pen mark around a section of it on the LHS. Presumably this is Stain A?

I notice also it has been torn not cut.

This isn't the type of woven material I imagined from the evidence and our previous discussions. Just looking it up in my supplier's catalogue, and with the horizontal stripes, it is called "one way filament tape" and is fibreglass strands with polypropylene backing.

Hmmmm maybe this was what JR was shown and why he said it didn't look like the tape he took off her mouth.

Maybe, but he could be lying, too. Patsy also said she didn't recognize her spoon, bowl, tissue box either.

 

[KoldKase]

It became clear to me when reading these LE interviews with Patsy and John, done in 1998, that they were trying to implicate the Whites. I think we have seen that through the years as well, up to the last interview I have seen with John Ramsey. It was last year, written by a Ramsey friendly reporter, and in it John clearly implicated he suspects Fleet White. I think that shows real hatred of the Whites now, considering what they have been through with all the lies told about them by Nancy Krebs and her Ramsey supporters.

So John kept talking about sailboats and how good of a sailor Fleet was, unlike himself (though John built his own sailboat, sailed with his family aboard, etc.). That tape? Looked like something Fleet had.

Remember Patsy implied that Priscilla had a red jacket just like Patsy's--or close. She even said something like she thought she might have put Priscilla's on that night at the Whites' house.

This is when I knew the Ramseys are far from the Christian innocents they have always tried to portray. John implied he'd lie about Fleet having black tape like that, the way I read the '98 interview. The Ramseys had no problem implicating innocent people when it suited their purpose...and did. Many times. Ruined their reputations without a second thought: the Whites; the maid; Chris Wolf; the McReynolds; etc.

 

[KoldKase]

I bought some duct tape years ago that was black to look at the sticky side. It looked just like this. It's made of a fabric, and the sticky side was sort of cream-colored.

Again, duct tape in black and colors is used on stages, studios, pageants, etc., and has been as long as it has been made, I'd guess. It's used to mark spots for people to stop, stand, etc., because it doesn't reflect light so it's not that noticeable on camera, from the audience, etc.; it's used to secure long, heavy cords so they won't be tripped on; it's used by contestants under costumes, bathing suits, etc., to enhance figures, and the myriad of colors you can now buy it in helps conceal it underneath clothing.

It's common to use it in dance studios, on stages or "mock-ups" of stages during rehearsals, etc.

Patsy described duct tape in that interview down to its "gooey" texture. It's almost comical, but for the subject: she describes it perfectly and then says oh, no, she doesn't use it.

 

[KoldKase]

DeeDee249,

The source for the wine-cellar picture is a screen capture from the Schiller documentary, there are a few others from different angles.

Picture 145 is the wine-cellar e.g. paint can


Trip DeMuth interjects with questions about the white blanket.
Still on the wine-cellar.


I assume the pink object is in an evidence bag?

Patsy explcitly identifies the pink object as JonBenet's Barbie nightgown, but does not confirm if it is her Barbie Doll's , which is important if her doll is at the crime-scene.

Patsy and Tom Haney state they can see a Barbie Doll. I'm assuming its under the nightgown?


So I'm confident we have the Barbie nightgown and a Barbie doll located in the wine-cellar and documented as evidence.

Brilliant! Bravo, UKGuy and all the great posters here. I think you found the smoking doll.

I remember reading this now, but it didn't strike me that she was actually talking about a Barbie doll because I thought they were talking about the Barbie "doll" nightgown. The "plastic" I thought was the bag, but now I can see it was the "doll" that was plastic.

See, we don't have good photos of most of the evidence, just "screen captures," which are actually great when you think about how many generations away from the original photos they are. I don't even know how to do a "screen capture," but seems like I remember ACR talking about getting a piece of equipment to do them long ago.

There are so many people like ACR who have done so much to help us search for the truth in this case: Spade, who catches he|| from the RST for it, but who has brought us so much info, like the Bonita Papers. Someone shared ACR's copies of the transcripts we so often use (she's never said where she got them.) Also I know several mods at FFJ typed up a lot of stuff for us, which they only had the hard copies and spent many hours typing them to get them online. These people have never made money off their efforts, either, so we can never thank them enough for their efforts to further justice for a murdered child who can't speak for herself and who has been abandoned by those who should have fought for her all these years.

 

[KoldKase]

The coroner did note "tan mucous" in JB's nostrils and in the pattern of mucous/vomit on her cheek. I don't believe he mentioned anything in her ears. Blood turns brownish as it dries when exposed to the air, and to me, the tan mucous could very well be blood tinged. One of the frustrating things is that swabs are supposed to be taken of that mucous, and I would hope that was done. The material collected in the swab is then supposed to be analyzed, and we have never seen any report that stated this tan mucous had blood in it. We should have, though because the mucous in those areas (mouth, nose) is not "tan" but clear (or greenish if there is an infection). Tan to me spells dried blood.

As far as water from toilets being taken into evidence, I believe it was.

Didn't Thomas state in his book that there was a spot on the right upper sleeve of JB's shirt that was blood-tinged? When looking at the position of her head turned to the right side, I have always thought it must have run down her face and dripped onto the upper sleeve, but that's just a "best guess."

 

[DeeDee249]

Didn't Thomas state in his book that there was a spot on the right upper sleeve of JB's shirt that was blood-tinged? When looking at the position of her head turned to the right side, I have always thought it must have run down her face and dripped onto the upper sleeve, but that's just a "best guess."

I believe you are right, and it would have been in the spot her mouth or nose would have dripped onto, the shoulder/upper arm area. With her head cocked to the right, and frozen in place by rigor, that is certainly possible. People don't bleed when they are dead, but dead bodies can ooze and fluids can still drip or leak out.

 

[UKGuy]

Brilliant! Bravo, UKGuy and all the great posters here. I think you found the smoking doll.

I remember reading this now, but it didn't strike me that she was actually talking about a Barbie doll because I thought they were talking about the Barbie "doll" nightgown. The "plastic" I thought was the bag, but now I can see it was the "doll" that was plastic.

See, we don't have good photos of most of the evidence, just "screen captures," which are actually great when you think about how many generations away from the original photos they are. I don't even know how to do a "screen capture," but seems like I remember ACR talking about getting a piece of equipment to do them long ago.

There are so many people like ACR who have done so much to help us search for the truth in this case: Spade, who catches he|| from the RST for it, but who has brought us so much info, like the Bonita Papers. Someone shared ACR's copies of the transcripts we so often use (she's never said where she got them.) Also I know several mods at FFJ typed up a lot of stuff for us, which they only had the hard copies and spent many hours typing them to get them online. These people have never made money off their efforts, either, so we can never thank them enough for their efforts to further justice for a murdered child who can't speak for herself and who has been abandoned by those who should have fought for her all these years.

KoldKase,
Thank you. My motivation for pursuing this aspect, is that I have never accepted that the barbie nightgown arrived by accident in the wine-cellar wich seems to contradict the desire to stage a crime scene.

The possibility of a barbie-doll seems irregular, but the Ramsey testimony suggests otherwise. So we have a blood-stained barbie-nightgown and a barbie-doll, presumably items no intruder would consider removing in tandem with JonBenet. Which reinforces my assumption of multiple staging.

.

 

[Ames]

KoldKase,
Thank you. My motivation for pursuing this aspect, is that I have never accepted that the barbie nightgown arrived by accident in the wine-cellar wich seems to contradict the desire to stage a crime scene.

The possibility of a barbie-doll seems irregular, but the Ramsey testimony suggests otherwise. So we have a blood-stained barbie-nightgown and a barbie-doll, presumably items no intruder would consider removing in tandem with JonBenet. Which reinforces my assumption of multiple staging.

.

Is it a known fact that the Barbie nightgown...or whatever that pink thing is beside of the white blanket in the cellar photo...has blood on it? I mean, is that documented anywhere...or does it just LOOK like blood. (I thought that it could just be the lighting, when the photo was taken).

 

[MurriFlower]

Is it a known fact that the Barbie nightgown...or whatever that pink thing is beside of the white blanket in the cellar photo...has blood on it? I mean, is that documented anywhere...or does it just LOOK like blood. (I thought that it could just be the lighting, when the photo was taken).

I'm still waiting for someone to point out the bloodstains and the Barbie doll??

 

[Ames]

I'm still waiting for someone to point out the bloodstains and the Barbie doll??

I see what looks like it COULD be a barbie doll, but it is hard to tell. I still haven't seen the bloodstains either. No matter how hard I look. I see what looks like a shadow...which could be the lighting when the photo was taken. But, I swear I don't see bloodstains.

 

[Toltec]

I've never heard about any blood on the blanket or pink pajamas. The only blood came from the crotch area. There was mucous coming out of her nose, and that dripped onto the shirt sleeve.

 

[Ames]

I've never heard about any blood on the blanket or pink pajamas. The only blood came from the crotch area. There was mucous coming out of her nose, and that dripped onto the shirt sleeve.

Toltec, go back and read this entire thread...when you have time...some posters see blood on the pink object (barbie nightgown?) beside of the white blanket). I was just wondering where and if that is documented somewhere, though. Is it REALLY blood???

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm still waiting for someone to point out the bloodstains and the Barbie doll??

I have never noticed the blood on the pink nightie, though I can make out a Barbie doll that looks like a Holiday Barbie still in the clear plastic box they all come in. They still come that way.
Actually, the blood on the pink nightie appears on evidence lists that can be found on ACR.

 

[Ames]

I have never noticed the blood on the pink nightie, though I can make out a Barbie doll that looks like a Holiday Barbie still in the clear plastic box they all come in. They still come that way.
Actually, the blood on the pink nightie appears on evidence lists that can be found on ACR.

I thought that I had remembered reading that about it being on the evidence list, but wasn't 100 percent positive. I wonder if that nightgown could have been used to wipe her down with too. I still don't see the stains...wonder if the blood was enough to see.

 

[DeeDee249]

I thought that I had remembered reading that about it being on the evidence list, but wasn't 100 percent positive. I wonder if that nightgown could have been used to wipe her down with too. I still don't see the stains...wonder if the blood was enough to see.

Well, dark (cotton?) fibers were found on the area, and that is what was thought used to wipe her down. Nighties like that are usually polyester, and might not shed, but I think if there had been pink fibers it would be noted, after all they did make note of the dark ones.