Where Do You Think Teresa Halbach was Killed?

[Limaes]

EXACTLY!!

A LOT of these officers had nothing but pure hatred for SA!

Now, I am a VERY open minded & reasonable girl ( IMO ) & there is NO amount of speculation possible that is going to convince this chic that those officers were going to let a DOG...owned by the one and ONLY Steven Avery keep them from doing their BEST job possible UNLESS it BENEFITED THEM. In this instance it did not. In fact it was super convenient for LE that " Bear the beast" was on guard during this time!

IMO, had LE absolutely NEEDED a dozen superior quality photos of that pit & Bear were " on guard " and in the way...they'd have shot the poor boy to get those pics.

Would you happen to have a source for that? Or even an example of their pure hatred?

 

[dexter75]

Would you happen to have a source for that? Or even an example of their pure hatred?

My source, the decade plus time he was in prison for a crime he didn't commit.
Why else did they lock him up? Why else would calls LE received be ignored when the real perp was apprehended?

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[Saul Vesalot]

I would love to know where Halbach was killed. The "Where?" would probably answer the "Who?" and "When?"

If Avery is guilty:
The car seat/bench that was in the fire pit. That seems like a pretty good place to kill someone, on top of something as apparently flammable as a car seat. It would be a good place to have a victim wait while you went inside to get something (a gun) real quick. And it would fit well with the whole "burn everything" method of covering up the crime and would explain the lack of Halbach blood or DNA anywhere that has been investigated.

If Avery is not guilty:
I don't really think we will ever know for sure where the killing took place, unless it ends up being in the RAV4. By this time, the killer has had enough time to destroy every single thing.

 

[Safeguard]

I would love to know where Halbach was killed. The "Where?" would probably answer the "Who?" and "When?"

If Avery is guilty:
The car seat/bench that was in the fire pit. That seems like a pretty good place to kill someone, on top of something as apparently flammable as a car seat. It would be a good place to have a victim wait while you went inside to get something (a gun) real quick. And it would fit well with the whole "burn everything" method of covering up the crime and would explain the lack of Halbach blood or DNA anywhere that has been investigated.

If Avery is not guilty:
I don't really think we will ever know for sure where the killing took place, unless it ends up being in the RAV4. By this time, the killer has had enough time to destroy every single thing.

I've always thought "where" would be crucial in this case. All we have is "where not" and a make-believe story of "how".

I feel like Proudfootz does, that she was killed at the back of the RAV, or somewhere right around the RAV. If there was enough fresh blood to leave those bloody hair swatches, then I don't think she was carried very far or moved into the back of the RAV very long after she was killed.

If SA killed her, all he had to do is put her in her car, drive her off his property, and let the chips fall where they may. He would have had a better shot of getting away with it, doing that, than leaving the car, the plates, the bones, the key, and a chit-ton of other evidence right in his yard. Just does not make any sense.

I get the sense, from watching footage of SA and reading the transcripts, that he thinks in a very simple, strait forward, linear fashion. He doesn't seem to deliberate very long at all. If something went horribly wrong, and TH ended up dead, I can't see him thinking, Hmmmm...

well...maybe I could drive her to the pond...No...*drives her back*...Lets see....Hmmm, I Know, I'll make a huge fire in the pit, collect all this stuff, burn some of her a barrel or two, move some of her cremains, other places, keep her key, hide her RAV right in my yard... ECT!

I seriously doubt he would have thought more than, *Chit! I need to get her and her car, off my property quick!*

 

[Karinna]

I've always thought "where" would be crucial in this case. All we have is "where not" and a make-believe story of "how".

I feel like Proudfootz does, that she was killed at the back of the RAV, or somewhere right around the RAV. If there was enough fresh blood to leave those bloody hair swatches, then I don't think she was carried very far or moved into the back of the RAV very long after she was killed.

If SA killed her, all he had to do is put her in her car, drive her off his property, and let the chips fall where they may. He would have had a better shot of getting away with it, doing that, than leaving the car, the plates, the bones, the key, and a chit-ton of other evidence right in his yard. Just does not make any sense.

I get the sense, from watching footage of SA and reading the transcripts, that he thinks in a very simple, strait forward, linear fashion. He doesn't seem to deliberate very long at all. If something went horribly wrong, and TH ended up dead, I can't see him thinking, Hmmmm...

well...maybe I could drive her to the pond...No...*drives her back*...Lets see....Hmmm, I Know, I'll make a huge fire in the pit, collect all this stuff, burn some of her a barrel or two, move some of her cremains, other places, keep her key, hide her RAV right in my yard... ECT!

I seriously doubt he would have thought more than, *Chit! I need to get her and her car, off my property quick!*

I agree with your thoughts on that. I think it was a much more cunning mind that did whatever happened to TH.
I do find it interesting that Steven Avery felt it was two family members that could of set him up, and the motive being to gain the family business and jealousy over his coming monetary windfall from his civil case. Sounds logical to me as far as motive goes. Lots of people kill for personal gain.
I wonder how SA's theory worked out in that regard?

 

[Safeguard]

I agree with your thoughts on that. I think it was a much more cunning mind that did whatever happened to TH.
I do find it interesting that Steven Avery felt it was two family members that could of set him up, and the motive being to gain the family business and jealousy over his coming monetary windfall from his civil case. Sounds logical to me as far as motive goes. Lots of people kill for personal gain.
I wonder how SA's theory worked out in that regard?

Good post. I was troubled too about why SA would implicate his own brothers.

Maybe he had to list everyone that should have been investigated and weren't? I could see how it might get hard to trust anybody, in this situation though

reading over the docs his defence filed, that's the sense I got...All Or None.

Here are a couple of documents from the 2009 retrial request that pertain to the brothers possible involvement. Some interesting reading:

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wkow/newsdocs/avery documents 1-22.pdf

Part 2: http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wkow/newsdocs/avery document page 23 +.pdf

 

[proudfootz]

I certainly don't have enough information to even name a suspect in possible crimes against Teresa.

But I think Zellner has a short list (maybe one name on that list!) of persons of interest.

I don't know if she has shared her suspicions with Steven. If she has, he's done a remarkable job of keeping the secret.

 

[dexter75]

I tell ya, it's ALWAYS been in the back of my mind that one of the Avery brothers could be somewhat responsible, or played some sort of role in this mess.

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[Safeguard]

I tell ya, it's ALWAYS been in the back of my mind that one of the Avery brothers could be somewhat responsible, or played some sort of role in this mess.

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I've never really got the feeling that SA's brothers did it. I have suspected RH (but can't shake the notion that he just seems to scrawny to carry it out, at least on his own).

Scott T is a whole nother thang! He seemed thrilled, (with relief?) when SA was found guilty, to the point of proclaiming, "this is greatest thing that could've happened" (Paraphrasing). He grinned in the court room when the verdict came out, and then there's this(from the report I posted up thread):

06 / 29/ 2009
15:21
FAX 9204321190
WBAY NEWS ROOM
~
WKOW

"No one else else can vouch for their whereabouts during that afternoon". (RE: Bobby & Scott).

114.

"Another co-worker of Tadych reported that Tadych had approached him to sell him a .22 rifle that belonged to one of the Dassey boys. (Calumet County Sheriff' s Department report of 3/30/06, p. 725-726). A .22 rifle was believed to be the murder weapon in this case. 115.

Additionally, a co-worker stated that Tadych had left work on the day that Steven Avery was arrested, and that he
was a "nervous wreck" when he left. Further a co-worker stated that Tadych had commented that one of the Dassey boys had blood on his clothes, and that the clothes had "gotten mixed up with his laundry." (Calumet County Sheriffs Department report of
312/06, p.687). 116.

Applying these facts to the three-factor test in Denny, the court erred in concluding it was insufficient to meet the standard for admissibility."

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I tell ya, it's ALWAYS been in the back of my mind that one of the Avery brothers could be somewhat responsible, or played some sort of role in this mess.

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.
I haven't ruled out the brothers either. In fact, EA lives in Whitelaw near where the last ping on TH's phone was, so I'm not going to rule him out. However, even with that fact, I don't think he is responsible. I'll be surprised if KZ uncovers that he is. Certainly not out of the realm of possibility though.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

County property

One of the most underplayed events occurred away from the Avery Salvage Yard — the recovery of various pelvic bones at the Manitowoc County-owned gravel pits located off Highway Q.

The pelvic bones were charred. They showed distinct markings indicating they were cut. However, Kratz suggested to the jury that the bones might not even be human, contradicting testimony from his own expert witness, state anthropologist Leslie Eisenberg, who examined the pelvic bones. At Avery's trial, Avery's lawyers Dean Strang and Jerry Buting mistakenly believed the pelvic bones were found at the large mass of nearby quarries owned by Joshua Radandt, also southwest of Avery's land.


However, more precise police reports show the pelvic bones were recovered from Manitowoc County's land. Zellner has also recognized that several Calumet investigators were spending an inordinate amount of time over the course of several days scouring for evidence of Halbach's murder and dismemberment in and around these quarries, including Radandt's property.

http://www.postcrescent.com/story/n.../avery-case-lull-but-things-heat-up/96533558/

 

[BigCityAccountant]

County property



http://www.postcrescent.com/story/n.../avery-case-lull-but-things-heat-up/96533558/

.
I'm not sure he checked his sources...I believe someone is sending him an email to get confirmation that is correct. From what I found, it was JR's land until his bankruptcy.

 

[Karinna]

Good post. I was troubled too about why SA would implicate his own brothers.

Maybe he had to list everyone that should have been investigated and weren't? I could see how it might get hard to trust anybody, in this situation though

reading over the docs his defence filed, that's the sense I got...All Or None.

Here are a couple of documents from the 2009 retrial request that pertain to the brothers possible involvement. Some interesting reading:

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wkow/newsdocs/avery documents 1-22.pdf

Part 2: http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wkow/newsdocs/avery document page 23 +.pdf

I think for SA to think it was a couple of his family members he must of had good reason to think that and knowing about how they functioned within his family.
Who were the hunters in the family to shoot deer and butcher the deer and if they could do that then its not a stretch IMO they could do it to a human being.
They would be used to doing that kind of thing. I don't know if SA & BD would of done that though as i think after the ones that did the hunting butchered the animals in the garage and SA would of cleaned the blood off the floor when they were finished with the help of Brendan to help maybe? And KZ mentions dismembering of TH's body because of cuts found on some of the bones. And i think they were also used to burning the animal carcasses to get rid of what was left of them.
I guess we will have to wait and see who the evidence could implicate when KZ has finished her testing etc.

 

[Karinna]

@ Safeguard, Thanks for posting up those links i will read them for sure.

 

[Karinna]

I think Steven Avery killed Theresa Halbach in his bedroom. I believe that sexual assault was the motive, so it makes sense that he would have abducted her and taken her there.
*
The evidence against Avery is compelling. It's a little sad that so many peopled have been duped by the smoke & mirrors of the Netflix series. "And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
*
Let's not forget, this is a guy who doused a live kitten with motor oil and tossed it into a bonfire. Avery is a psychopath who is capable of any atrocity. Don't waste your sympathy on this lowlife, folks.

If SA killed TH in the bedroom then where is the DNA evidence for that? Also there was no evidence of a sexual assault either.
He also wouldn't have needed to abduct TH because she was right there at the Avery yard.

 

[dexter75]

.
I'm not sure he checked his sources...I believe someone is sending him an email to get confirmation that is correct. From what I found, it was JR's land until his bankruptcy.

:yourock:
Like I said earlier
I love our honesty and welcome the fact checking..I told you, I can't remember what I had for breakfast most days
I would so much rather be informed than misinformed.

 

[Karinna]

They're really an important issue because where the body was burned should have determined guilt or innocence alone, ignoring everything else, because if the jury believed or understood that this body was burned elsewhere then the fact that there were the majority of her bones were found in his burn pit should have proven that he was not the killer. Because nobody would burn a body somewhere else, gather up their bones and then go and dump them in their own backyard. That's ludicrous, right?

Yes.
http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news...erys-lawyer-on-the-evidence-left-out-20160115

 

[Karinna]

And further
(quote)
The other thing that wasn't covered in the documentary is, we presented an expert who's from Canada, and he had never testified for anybody but the Crown, the prosecution, before. He was really a world expert on finding cremains outside and in various locations [where one might] try to hide and dispose of a body. And he testified consistently with what we had found in the literature, which is: to burn a body takes either extremely high heat, or a very long, sustained, moderate medium-high type of heat, and it would be very difficult to burn a body in an open pit — an open fire — particularly to the degree that these bone fragments showed. At a crematorium, for instance, they use extremely high heat, and it still takes several hours.

Here, you would have had to continually stoke a fire over, and over, and over for 12, 14, 16 hours — something like that — in order to produce this [type of effect]. And there was no evidence that any fire [like that] had [taken place]. There was a bonfire, but there was no evidence that there was any intense fire like that for such a long, sustained period of time.

 

[missy1974]

.
I'm not sure he checked his sources...I believe someone is sending him an email to get confirmation that is correct. From what I found, it was JR's land until his bankruptcy.

I have posted some screen shots in the other thread http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?324765-MaM-a-Year-Later-Reconstruct-the-Crime/page42

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I think for SA to think it was a couple of his family members he must of had good reason to think that and knowing about how they functioned within his family.
Who were the hunters in the family to shoot deer and butcher the deer and if they could do that then its not a stretch IMO they could do it to a human being.
They would be used to doing that kind of thing. I don't know if SA & BD would of done that though as i think after the ones that did the hunting butchered the animals in the garage and SA would of cleaned the blood off the floor when they were finished with the help of Brendan to help maybe? And KZ mentions dismembering of TH's body because of cuts found on some of the bones. And i think they were also used to burning the animal carcasses to get rid of what was left of them.
I guess we will have to wait and see who the evidence could implicate when KZ has finished her testing etc.

.
Oh Karina~~I know this area very well. Many many many families in that area still feed their families by hunting. My husband is a hunter, yes part of hunting means that you have to clean the deer. That in no way equates to a person who is capable of killing and murdering another person.

My husband is capable of cleaning a deer, and I know many people who are also capable of cleaning a deer, including a 10 year old girl~~but that doesn't make them killers. While hunting may not be for everyone, if you eat meat then someone has to prepare it for you.