Where the Avery Conspiracy Theory Falls Apart

[MaxManning]

Not even the key?
90 percent and no explanation for why the seal was broken on the box holding the blood?

I think they are possible. I would say there is a 10% chance of that all happening.

I see what people are saying and understand the suspicion. I am still questioning along those lines to see if more can be found.

But there is no smoking gun in terms of proving planting, at this point.

That's why I have great interest in the valet key -- I think that could be the smoking gun potentially.

 

[Madeleine74]

How can anyone opine that TH is still alive?

They found her blood (significant amounts of it) in the cargo area of her SUV. There was her hair in some of that blood.

Her bones (several of which were DNA tested and matched to a known sample of hers from a pap smear) were ID'd positively.

The rivets from the "Daisy Fuentes" jeans she was wearing that very day were found in the fire pit...all that was left after her clothes were burned.

Eyewitnesses saw her on the Avery property.

Brendan claimed to have seen her remains in the fire -- he told his cousin about this but the cousin (Kayla) denied it on the stand saying she made it all up. Ironic how both Brendan and Kayla made up the exact same story about TH's remains in the fire.

Is it imagined she is hiding out somewhere, causing untenable grief to a family she loved? Or is it imagined she is being held against her will by someone since 2005 and somehow she or he or they were able to plant evidence that fooled more than 1 crime lab into thinking remains and blood and hair found matched her but really didn't?

Come.On.

 

[MaxManning]

Reread my post.

Ok, I just did, but where does someone testify or whatever that the incinerator was unused ?

I am not doubting it, just want to read wherever you found that information.

 

[Hez]

I dont think she was killed , I think she could be in TX living under the last name Geske. But thats just me.

Oh, so she's in on the conspiracy to frame SA too? :facepalm:

 

[MaxManning]

How can anyone opine that TH is still alive?

They found her blood (significant amounts of it) in the cargo area of her SUV. There was her hair in some of that blood.

Her bones (several of which were DNA tested and matched to a known sample of hers from a pap smear) were ID'd positively.

Eyewitnesses saw her on the Avery property.

Brendan claimed to have seen her remains in the fire -- he told his cousin about this but the cousin (Kayla) denied it on the stand saying she made it all up. Ironic how both Brendan and Kayla made up the exact same story about TH's remains in the fire.

You could be right, I am looking for the information right now actually.

But based on what I remember, the tooth was how they identified the body. - which doesn't mean you are dead. I have had a tooth pulled, and I'm still alive and kicking

So if you can point us to where you saw that DNA from bones matched her pap smear, we can clear that up quick.

'significant' amounts of blood, is not very scientific! but I hear ya. doesn't hurt to understand how much.


Eyewitness seeing her on property doesn't mean she can't be alive still.
Brendan saying he saw remains in a fire, doesn't mean it was teresa , unless he knows how to dna test bones. -- and of course, if he even saw bones.

Yes, we all understand this is craziness, and I think the person posting realizes that too

But ruling things out and learning more can be fun. I know I'll be googling Geske TX in a moment as well.

 

[MaxManning]

Oh, so she's in on the conspiracy to frame SA too? :facepalm:

I believe it's an attempt at humor, as there's a Geske's Fire Grill in El Paso Texas.

But either way, I am interested now in the identification of the bones as hers. I thought the tooth was used, but don't remember DNA from tooth or bones being noted.

I might have been reading about an early identification via the tooth and dental records. Then obviously later a more certain identification happened with bones via DNA.

We have all likely seen crime drama's where a tooth from someone is planted to make you believe it's that person. But if someone was going to try something like this, they'd likely be getting ideas from TV , haha.

 

[Madeleine74]

So if you can point us to where you saw that DNA from bones matched her pap smear, we can clear that up quick.

The various DNA reports that got posted from this case (last night maybe).

Not everything they tested was able to have DNA extracted, but many items were. Those remains are hers. She is not hiding out in a cave somewhere or living under an assumed identity somewhere.

 

[stephsb]

I believe it's an attempt at humor, as there's a Geske's Fire Grill in El Paso Texas.

But either way, I am interested now in the identification of the bones as hers. I thought the tooth was used, but don't remember DNA from tooth or bones being noted.

I might have been reading about an early identification via the tooth and dental records. Then obviously later a more certain identification happened with bones via DNA.

We have all likely seen crime drama's where a tooth from someone is planted to make you believe it's that person. But if someone was going to try something like this, they'd likely be getting ideas from TV , haha.

Dassey's criminal complaint lists tooth fragments being identified via dental records. That is considered a very legitimate way of identifying remains, at least as far as the legal community is concerned.


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[MaxManning]

Dassey's criminal complaint lists tooth fragments being identified via dental records. That is considered a very legitimate way of identifying remains, at least as far as the legal community is concerned.


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No one is disputing that, haha

The suggestion of her being alive, because a single tooth being found doesn't mean someone is dead.

If I pulled out a tooth right now and threw it into a pile of remains, and you used that tooth to identify the body -- would that mean they are my remains ?

I find it completely ridiculous , but we see that kind of stuff on TV dramas, so if someone wanted to disappear they might try that.

But, my only point in all this was just excluding that definitively, which shouldn't be hard. But identification of a single tooth, doesn't exclude the theory.

 

[MaxManning]

The various DNA reports that got posted from this case (last night maybe).

Not everything they tested was able to have DNA extracted, but many items were. Those remains are hers. She is not hiding out in a cave somewhere or living under an assumed identity somewhere.

Trust me, no one here is taking this seriously, I certainly am not.

But I did want to verify that DNA was used to identify here at some point, because what I read was from early on in the case which describes the tooth identification.

Their description that it was to a degree of certainty, was theirs, not mine. It was purely based on the dental records and the teeth, and the only reason they had question was because the tooth was damaged. I am in no way saying I doubt that was her tooth. DNA testing occurred many months later.

I am in no way saying I believe this is a case of faking their death.

Do I think it's a funny theory. Yes.

Am I curious as to how they ID'd the body. Yes.

I said haha , because I find it funny.

But if you are opposed to pointing to where the DNA was used to confirm it was her, fine.

no big deal, right ? -- or is it ?

 

[stephsb]

Actually I was incorrect on dental records- they simply had a forensic odontologist identify the tooth fragments as human, at least per criminal complaint. I'm sure dental record exams were done later.

The forensic anthropologist recovered nearly every bone from the human body from the site, and identified them as human female. Charred tissue from the burn pit was positively matched to Teresa using DNA identification (from Dasseys criminal complaint) It was not a single tooth that linked Teresa to that pit.


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[stephsb]

No one is disputing that, haha

The suggestion of her being alive, because a single tooth being found doesn't mean someone is dead.

If I pulled out a tooth right now and threw it into a pile of remains, and you used that tooth to identify the body -- would that mean they are my remains ?

I find it completely ridiculous , but we see that kind of stuff on TV dramas, so if someone wanted to disappear they might try that.

But, my only point in all this was just excluding that definitively, which shouldn't be hard. But identification of a single tooth, doesn't exclude the theory.

Actually I was incorrect on dental records- they simply had a forensic odontologist identify the tooth fragments as human, at least per criminal complaint. I'm sure dental record exams were done later.

The forensic anthropologist recovered nearly every bone from the human body from the site, and identified them as human female. Charred tissue from the burn pit was positively matched to Teresa using DNA identification (from Dasseys criminal complaint) It was not a single tooth that linked Teresa to that pit.


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[MaxManning]

Actually I was incorrect on dental records- they simply had a forensic odontologist identify the tooth fragments as human, at least per criminal complaint. I'm sure dental record exams were done later.

The forensic anthropologist recovered nearly every bone from the human body from the site, and identified them as human female. Charred tissue from the burn pit was positively matched to Teresa using DNA identification (from Dasseys criminal complaint) It was not a single tooth that linked Teresa to that pit.


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This is what I was saying. I remember what I read, was that the tooth was only used for the initial identification, and the damage made them use language that was to a degree of certainty. Not like anyone doubts this.

The DNA identification came much later I believe. Not that it was ever truly in question.

I hope you all can see that people were laughing about this, and not seriously thinking she was in Texas. ya know ?

I also am interested in the incinerator. I honestly don't recall knowing it existed.

 

[stephsb]

This is what I was saying. I remember what I read, was that the tooth was only used for the initial identification, and the damage made them use language that was to a degree of certainty. Not like anyone doubts this.

The DNA identification came much later I believe. Not that it was ever truly in question.

I hope you all can see that people were laughing about this, and not seriously thinking she was in Texas. ya know ?

I also am interested in the incinerator. I honestly don't recall knowing it existed.

I was just posting the info as I knew it, people can do whatever they want with it. I got that the Texas reference was a joke, but I've seen some speculation on other forums that maybe it wasn't her bones, etc. Nonsense, IMO, but people can believe what they want. I just wanted to show where the tooth fragment/tissue matches came from


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[MaxManning]

I am curious about the incinerator, because if it wasn't used, why wasn't it used ? Was it broken ?

If this is something they have at the junkyard, and used often, I'd want to understand how it's known that it wasn't used for the body.

That was my main motivation to reading where that was explained.

I don't even know how effective any given incinerator would be, although my assumption would be that it's for completely destroying something!

But when it's done is their just ash ? Or would the bones be still there ?

 

[ZooSleuth]

If one is a fan of Occam's Razor then it stands to reason that Teresa never left the Avery Salvage Yard alive. She was last known for sure to be in contact with Steven Avery, we know that much. Her charred remains were found in his fire pit. Her burned cell phone, camera, and Palm Pilot was found in SA's burn barrel. We also know for sure he had a bonfire the very night right after she had disappeared. Occam's Razor would suggest the simplest explanation is the correct one -- that the person last known to have seen her alive is the one who was responsible for her demise.

I'm willing to start there and see if the evidence leads in another direction.

BBM. Occam's Razor is not that the simplest explanation is the correct one. This is a common misconception I see, especially on this forum. It really states that among competing hypothesis, the one that makes the least assumptions should be selected.

 

[Madeleine74]

Not assumption: TH was absolutely with SA that very day somewhere around 2:40pm
Not assumption: The last activity on TH cell phone was 2:41pm Oct 30, 2005
Not assumption: TH completed the transaction and gave SA a receipt and a copy of the current Auto Trader
Not assumption: SA is the last known person to interact with TH that day.
Not assumption: No one who is a friend or family member of TH ever heard from TH again
Not assumption: TH was murdered and her body was burned into charred bits and those bones were found on the Avery property
Not assumption: SA started a bonfire in his fire pit, approximately 2 to 3 hours after the last time TH was seen alive.
Not assumption: SA kept the fire going in the fire pit, for several hours and well after the 10pm curfew BD had.
Not assumption: TH's SUV was found, partially obscured, on the Avery property.
Not assumption: Inside the SUV was blood and hair, which was DNA tested and came from TH
Not assumption: 5 of 6 rivets from the "Daisy Fuentes" jeans TH was wearing that day were found in the fire pit, where her bones were also found
Not assumption: TH's camera, cell phone, and PDA were found burned inside the burn barrel between SA and BD's trailers
Not assumption: SA's nephew, BD made statements that might indicate what happened to TH
Not assumption: BD was at the fire and was with his uncle at some point that afternoon.
Not assumption: Pants BD was wearing that day in Oct 2005 had some stains from chlorine bleach on them. BD handed those pants to the police.

Occam's Razor: No assumptions needed at all to opine that something happened to TH while she was on the Avery Salvage yard property and that she never left there alive and that whatever happened to her was done around 3pm or so and her body was likely being burned in the known large firepit fire that went for several hours and her belongings were being burned in the burn barrel nearby.

 

[Sleuther87]

BBM. Occam's Razor is not that the simplest explanation is the correct one. This is a common misconception I see, especially on this forum. It really states that among competing hypothesis, the one that makes the least assumptions should be selected.

You have to assume quite a lot more to believe Avery was framed than you do to believe he's involved in murdering TH.

I'll state just a few of the facts in bold and corresponding assumptions in italics.


He had a bonfire capable of burning TH. Bones were found in that same firepit.
The bones were planted there by someone.

His blood and her blood are in her Rav4.
Steven's blood was planted.

TH key found in his room.
Planted.

.22 bullet with TH's DNA linked to his gun type.
Planted.

According to Bryan Dassey, SA told him that he can kill someone and get away with it.
Steven was just joking and/or Bryan was coerced/lied.

Etc.

 

[Sinsaint]

Fact: The rivets from TH's jeans (5 out of 6 of them) with the 'Daisy Fuentes' moniker on them were found in the fire pit. The significance? Teresa was wearing her Kohl's branded Daisy Fuentes jeans that day. Those rivets proved her jeans were in that very fire. Teresa's sister ID'd the exact type of Kohl's Daisy Fuentes jeans TH owned. Brendan also told investigators that TH's clothes were burned in the fire pit. And lo and behold there was corroborating evidence about that. Source: Dassey trial transcripts, direct exam of TH's sister, Katie.

Fact: Dassey mentioned the clothing after the investigators suggested numerous times that SOMETHING was put in that fire. Yep, he came up with clothing on his own, unfortunately the clothing he described was not what she was wearing.

And since we are on the topic of Dassey's confession lining up with evidence, he claimed Halbach was shot ten or eleven times. Just as with the rivets, shouldn't nine or ten bullets have been recovered from that pit as well? As far as bullets go, hubby insists that a .22 most likely would not have enough enough power to go through both sides of a skull. As testimony indicated, she had at least two bullet wounds to the head so, at a minimum, at least two of those bullets would be stuck in her skull and should have been found in that pit.

 

[Madeleine74]

Well those rivets belonged to Daisy Fuentes branded jeans and TH had Daisy Fuentes jeans that were not found in her residence. Her younger sister testified about those jeans and ID'd the rivets. The sister used to tease her about those particular jeans (also in testimony). Occam's Razor: The Daisy Fuentes rivets were from pants TH was wearing that day and their presence in the fire pit is another piece of evidence that indicates TH and at least something she wore was burned.

Whether BD really saw them or not who knows. They were indeed there among the charred remains and ashes in the fire pit.