Which is strongest RDI evidence?

[FreeSafety36]

Imo, there is no reason to expect that the "intruder" knew that PR would use the back staircase that morning.
PR claimed to have found the note. Maybe that's true and maybe it's not.
PR claimed it was found on the back stairs. Maybe that's true and maybe it's not.
Imo, to believe that there is something to be learned by speculating how the intruder knew PR would use the back stairs is operating under the false assumption that the "intruder" wished PR to find the note. I think the truth is that the note could be left in any number of places where it would be found quickly upon the realization that JBR was gone. On the telephone, JBR's bed, or the floor near her room. There is no reason to assume that PR was intended to find it as the story goes. The note was not addressed to PR, it was addressed to JR.

I believe the idea was to cast reasonable suspicion over a large number of people, which meant LE had to spend a lot of time chasing dead ends just to rule out people who had absolutely nothing to do with it. That creates confusion and buys time...time to talk to lawyers and concoct and rehearse a story until you can recite it in your sleep. Confusion as in who each officer working the case thinks killed her. Linda Arndt thought it was JR, while Steve Thomas obviously thought it was PR and James Kolar believes it was BR. Also, what was one of the first things we heard the family planned to do? Go to Atlanta. In addition to time and confusion, they planned to create distance between themselves and the crime scene. Time, distance and confusion gives the killer a decent chance to get lost in the mix and avoid prosecution.

I think that was the plan all along and, sadly, it worked.

 

[Mama2JML]

As BDI myself, I try my best to sincerely and honestly evaluate any and every scenario posed. From these 3 IDI options, I would think A would be most likely, pure dumb luck.

If it were someone who knew the R's, we'd have to say they wanted to inflict pain and strife on the family. I can't envision a scenario where someone wanting to hurt the R's would write a ransom note, take their daughter to the basement, sexually assault her, clean her up, strangle her and then leave without her body. Had her body been removed from the house and/or mutilated or never found, I would be much more inclined to agree with this theory. If it were someone close to the family, they would know that the R's were going to Michigan the next morning, and would likely consider they may be up late packing, or may have to go to the basement for something they needed to pack.

If it were someone who'd been stalking the family, that would more than likely point to an obsessive pedophile, IMO. In the scenario that it was an intruding pedophile, I have trouble swallowing the idea that they would be willing to take the risk of doing their deed inside the home. Once they had JB in their possession, it would be much easier and extremely less risky to simply slip outside with her and take her to another location to molest her. If they had planned ahead enough to write out a 3 page ransom note, surely to goodness they'd have thought ahead enough to decide what they were going to do with her once they nabbed her. In the event she did something, like scream, that caught her attacker by surprise and caused him to deliver the head blow, that would be all the more reason to get her out of the house as quickly as possible.

JB being molested and her dead body left inside the home says to me that her killer was someone who had no fear at all of being caught in the home, with JonBenet, in the dark, in the middle of the night....and to me that rules out everyone except PR, JR, BR and JAR.

Perhaps all the risk involved is half the thrill?

 

[FreeSafety36]

Perhaps all the risk involved is half the thrill?

Interesting, and I did consider that. If that was the case, however, why bother with going to the basement at all? Why not keep her in her own bed, right under J and P's noses or in a common area on the main floor?

Basement indicates secrecy and hiding, IMO.

 

[Forthechildren]

Patsy was also telling a detective that they were having a new home extensively remodelled. That means lots of different workers coming and going. Anyone who'd had a child murdered by an intruder would be permanently paranoid about strangers around the home. Imo, the woman had more issues about being accused than the actual death. That is why I can't decide if PDI and subtly blamed B, or BDI.

Exactly. Patsy was always 'so' offended that LE would accuse her of killing her child, than being grief-stricken over her death. Both she AND John were. I saw old footage on youtube of John and Reve' Walsh after Adam was abducted. They were on tv pleading for his safe return. They looked absolutely horrible...sleep deprived, crying, distraught...desperate to find any information they could about the whereabouts of their son...THAT is grief. That is mourning. THAT is how I would be if my child were abducted/murdered. I don't really much buy the theory that we all grieve differently. At least not in a situation like this. As a parent, the thing that will shatter your world for sure and bring you defenseless to your knees is something happening to your child. We saw that in cases such as Adam Walsh's abduction. And John Walsh went on to host AMW. We got nothing like that out of the Ramseys. This is one of the biggest reasons I always thought they had something to do with Jonbenet's death..they were soooo worried about THEMSELVES, lawyering up to protect themselves. They focused on THEMSELVES, instead of focusing on their murdered child. AAAHHH...it still irks me to no end even to this day.

 

[BBB167893]

IDI perspectives:
Maybe he got lucky? Or, maybe he knew the Ramseys? Or, possibly he had watched/stalked his prey & knew their habits? I lean toward C.

Unfortunately, none of the investigators could replicate PR's story about finding it.

 

[BBB167893]

Exactly. Patsy was always 'so' offended that LE would accuse her of killing her child, than being grief-stricken over her death. Both she AND John were. I saw old footage on youtube of John and Reve' Walsh after Adam was abducted. They were on tv pleading for his safe return. They looked absolutely horrible...sleep deprived, crying, distraught...desperate to find any information they could about the whereabouts of their son...THAT is grief. That is mourning. THAT is how I would be if my child were abducted/murdered. I don't really much buy the theory that we all grieve differently. At least not in a situation like this. As a parent, the thing that will shatter your world for sure and bring you defenseless to your knees is something happening to your child. We saw that in cases such as Adam Walsh's abduction. And John Walsh went on to host AMW. We got nothing like that out of the Ramseys. This is one of the biggest reasons I always thought they had something to do with Jonbenet's death..they were soooo worried about THEMSELVES, lawyering up to protect themselves. They focused on THEMSELVES, instead of focusing on their murdered child. AAAHHH...it still irks me to no end even to this day.

That's what Marc Klaas said, too.

 

[tezi]

Unfortunately, none of the investigators could replicate PR's story about finding it.

What she said about the discovery of the note would be impossible to replicate, without breaking your neck. Another Ramsey "falsehood."

 

[borndem]

Exactly. Patsy was always 'so' offended that LE would accuse her of killing her child, than being grief-stricken over her death. Both she AND John were. I saw old footage on youtube of John and Reve' Walsh after Adam was abducted. They were on tv pleading for his safe return. They looked absolutely horrible...sleep deprived, crying, distraught...desperate to find any information they could about the whereabouts of their son...THAT is grief. That is mourning. THAT is how I would be if my child were abducted/murdered. I don't really much buy the theory that we all grieve differently. At least not in a situation like this. As a parent, the thing that will shatter your world for sure and bring you defenseless to your knees is something happening to your child. We saw that in cases such as Adam Walsh's abduction. And John Walsh went on to host AMW. We got nothing like that out of the Ramseys. This is one of the biggest reasons I always thought they had something to do with Jonbenet's death..they were soooo worried about THEMSELVES, lawyering up to protect themselves. They focused on THEMSELVES, instead of focusing on their murdered child. AAAHHH...it still irks me to no end even to this day.

Very well-thought post, Forthechildren! I agree about the composure of parents of a missing child -- the child is defenseless, hurting, scared, etc., etc., etc., and there you are, the parent, and you can't do one darn thing except all but camp out with LE to push, push, push, and cry & pray and appeal to the world for help and to the napper for your child's safe return. I wouldn't think that there is one parent on this thread who would disagree with how the Walshes handled things when they fist missed their son.

And one more thang:

Welcome

​

​

:rollercoaster:



to

:websleuther:Websleuths:websleuther:


:drumroll: Forthechildren!!! :drumroll:

We're glad you're here!



:thewave:
​

 

[cherisa]

Very well-thought post, Forthechildren! I agree about the composure of parents of a missing child -- the child is defenseless, hurting, scared, etc., etc., etc., and there you are, the parent, and you can't do one darn thing except all but camp out with LE to push, push, push, and cry & pray and appeal to the world for help and to the napper for your child's safe return. I wouldn't think that there is one parent on this thread who would disagree with how the Walshes handled things when they fist missed their son.

And one more thang:

Welcome

​

​

:rollercoaster:



to

:websleuther:Websleuths:websleuther:


:drumroll: Forthechildren!!! :drumroll:

We're glad you're here!



:thewave:
​

Nice welcome btw........

 

[Forthechildren]

That's what Marc Klaas said, too.

I was thinking of Marc klaas too.

 

[Forthechildren]

Nice welcome btw........

Thanks!

 

[gramcracker]

quoting this for guests and new members, because ALL circumstantial evidence is strong evidence

I've always like Manson prosecutor Vince Bugliosi's take on circumstantial evidence:

“I think that counsels’ problem is that they misconceive what circumstantial evidence is all about. Circumstantial evidence is not, as they claim, like a chain. You could have a chain spanning the Atlantic Ocean from Nova Scotia to Bordeaux, France, consisting of millions of links, and with one weak link that chain is broken.

“Circumstantial evidence, to the contrary, is like a rope. And each fact is a strand of that rope. And as the prosecution piles one fact upon another we add strands and we add strength to that rope. If one strand breaks – and I’m not conceding for one moment that any strand has broken in this case – but if one strand does break, the rope is not broken. The strength of the rope is barely diminished. Why? Because there are so many other strands of almost steel-like strength that the rope is still more than strong enough to bind these two defendants to justice. That’s what circumstantial evidence is all about.”

http://advocacytraining.blogspot.com/2011/10/winning-closing-argument.html

 

[questfortrue]

quoting this for guests and new members, because ALL circumstantial evidence is strong evidence

Also of interest is the statement from none other than JD, the ex-FBI profiler hired by the R's. He made the statement in one of his books, about how important it is to look at post-crime behavior, in determining who may have done what.

______________________________
Hmm, 30 minutes after JB had been found . . ."have ta get to that important business meeting in GA."

 

[teeandcee]

I voted their words/actions, but it's all of it together honestly. I'm not an expert on this case by any means, but the biggest red flag for me was John making arrangements to leave town that morning. Or confirming arrangements. Leaving town the morning you find your murdered daughter is so bizarre it's unbelievable.

On the other hand, if you're guilty in any way it makes sense. You'd want to get away from everything that reminds you of your guilt. IMO.

The second thing was their dumping Burke off. I think a normal reaction would be to never let him out of your sight.

 

[etamine]

The note.

Patsy's changing her handwriting post murder, nobody being able to rule her out, the Patsy style language in it, the change from callous to caring about John.

Then their actions surrounding the note. Patsy apparently didn't pick it up (she was getting on a bit, I'd be surprised if she didn't have to hold it away to make out the words), no mention to the police to stay inconspicuous, nobody reacting when the time mentioned in the note passed. PR knew what it said, but didn't keep the entire set of details in mind throughout the day.

 

[DeeDee249]

I voted their words/actions, but it's all of it together honestly. I'm not an expert on this case by any means, but the biggest red flag for me was John making arrangements to leave town that morning. Or confirming arrangements. Leaving town the morning you find your murdered daughter is so bizarre it's unbelievable.

On the other hand, if you're guilty in any way it makes sense. You'd want to get away from everything that reminds you of your guilt. IMO.

The second thing was their dumping Burke off. I think a normal reaction would be to never let him out of your sight.

I don't look at it as dumping BR off". I think the most important thing to them was getting BR out of the house that morning for two reasons. First is so police would not try to question him or observe him. It would be only expected to want to question a sibling of a kidnapped child (at that point police were treating it as a kidnapping) if they saw or heard anything that might help investigators to find her. And this is something parents of a kidnapped child would WANT to know.
The second is that JB was possibly going to be found dead in the home, and there was no way BR was going to be allowed to be there for that. Whatever his involvement, JB was going to look a lot different 12 hours after her death and they needed to protect him from that. NOTHING can ever be "un-seen". I think the risk BR might say something he shouldn't was not enough to risk keeping him in the house, and after all, the Whites themselves were going to be at the Rs, not at their own house. BR would be there with the White children and other relatives.

 

[renah]

I don't look at it as dumping BR off". I think the most important thing to them was getting BR out of the house that morning for two reasons. First is so police would not try to question him or observe him. It would be only expected to want to question a sibling of a kidnapped child (at that point police were treating it as a kidnapping) if they saw or heard anything that might help investigators to find her. And this is something parents of a kidnapped child would WANT to know.
The second is that JB was possibly going to be found dead in the home, and there was no way BR was going to be allowed to be there for that. Whatever his involvement, JB was going to look a lot different 12 hours after her death and they needed to protect him from that. NOTHING can ever be "un-seen". I think the risk BR might say something he shouldn't was not enough to risk keeping him in the house, and after all, the Whites themselves were going to be at the Rs, not at their own house. BR would be there with the White children and other relatives.

DeeDee, I really respect you, I think you're one of the top assets on this forum but Ive seen you say this before-- that they didnt want their son to see his sister's body -- but imo I just cant see these parents having the unselfish empathy to care about what Burke might see. To me, it just doesnt fit.

I struggled with why, if they were guilty or if HE was guilty, how could they trust him not to talk when out of their sight.. until someone here said (Im sorry but i dont recall who) that even nine year old boys are smart enough to keep their mouths shut when they're guilty.

It helped me cement my own BDI opinion.

 

[ShadyLady]

I don't look at it as dumping BR off". I think the most important thing to them was getting BR out of the house that morning for two reasons. First is so police would not try to question him or observe him. It would be only expected to want to question a sibling of a kidnapped child (at that point police were treating it as a kidnapping) if they saw or heard anything that might help investigators to find her. And this is something parents of a kidnapped child would WANT to know.
The second is that JB was possibly going to be found dead in the home, and there was no way BR was going to be allowed to be there for that. Whatever his involvement, JB was going to look a lot different 12 hours after her death and they needed to protect him from that. NOTHING can ever be "un-seen". I think the risk BR might say something he shouldn't was not enough to risk keeping him in the house, and after all, the Whites themselves were going to be at the Rs, not at their own house. BR would be there with the White children and other relatives.

Personally, with all the screaming PR supposedly did that morning, there is no way Burke would have stayed asleep. Whether he did it or not he was awake, imo. And if either of his parents did it, I still think he knew something was up.

As for PR, who puts Desitin on their 6 year old daughter every couple of days??? Way too invasive. And screaming from bathroom (per house keeper)??? Something really odd there.

IMO still is one or both parents and sexual abuse and the sexualization of a young child.

 

[Anyhoo]

DeeDee, I really respect you, I think you're one of the top assets on this forum but Ive seen you say this before-- that they didnt want their son to see his sister's body -- but imo I just cant see these parents having the unselfish empathy to care about what Burke might see. To me, it just doesnt fit.

I struggled with why, if they were guilty or if HE was guilty, how could they trust him not to talk when out of their sight.. until someone here said (Im sorry but i dont recall who) that even nine year old boys are smart enough to keep their mouths shut when they're guilty.

It helped me cement my own BDI opinion.

If I were going to deduce anything from this incident (BR being allowed to leave with the Whites), it would not be that BR was guilty of the murder. It would not even be that BR knew who the murderer was among his family. Rather, it would be that BR was allowed to go because he really didn't know anything about the murder, so there was no danger of him divulging what he did not know. Trust a nine year old boy not to disclose the murder of his sister, which you theorize he committed last night? I think you are off-base. To me this is evidence against BDI, not for it.

 

[Amateur Novelist]

DeeDee, I really respect you, I think you're one of the top assets on this forum but Ive seen you say this before-- that they didnt want their son to see his sister's body -- but imo I just cant see these parents having the unselfish empathy to care about what Burke might see. To me, it just doesnt fit.

I struggled with why, if they were guilty or if HE was guilty, how could they trust him not to talk when out of their sight.. until someone here said (Im sorry but i dont recall who) that even nine year old boys are smart enough to keep their mouths shut when they're guilty.

It helped me cement my own BDI opinion.

Perhaps the R's wanted BR away from the scene so that they would not need to worry about his behavior when she was found... in other words, what if he acted indifferent, showed no emotion, or totally broke down... acted irregular enough to draw attention to his behavior. The parents were not being empathetic as much as for protecting him from him being observed.

I read some things in another thread which prompted another thought. The JR push to have JAR removed as a suspect seems to fit what a caring parent would do... but if he pushed so much for JAR to be cleared, it would not raise suspicion if he pushed equally hard for BR to be cleared. In other words, if he acted the same for both, it would not seem out of the ordinary with regards for demanding that BR be cleared.