Who do you think the Zodiac Killer actually is?

[sandy betts]

Am definitely late coming around to the idea of Zodiac being tied to the Santa Rosa Hitchhiker murders, thought at first there could be no way, but have become increasingly convinced he is. Think he is alive, he lived most/all of his life in CA; he is likely first-generation American; he was/is married and was employed in academia with some focus/interest in music/theater; background in high school sports, university educated, perhaps some military; and some tie to Sonoma vineyards; think he had meaningful and long-lasting connections to the Santa Rosa area and Saramento area, and do think he murdered Cherie Bates. I think he is involved in the SRHMurders in some role, think he is behind the murder of Carolyn Davis. Carolyn Davis per some sources noted she'd witnessed a double murder in Shasta County, that sounds very much like a potential Zodiac situation. And strychnine was historically used on vineyards to control gophers and voles, (Believe the EPA put an end to such use in 1972.) Moreover, there was some symbol reminiscent perhaps of Zodiac near Carolyn's site. Don't know if he was involved in other/all the SRHMurders, but I know Lori Kursa may have had two attackers per sources. While I can't picture "Zodiac" allowing cooperation in his crimes, I can maybe picture him participating in such crimes with his partner/s completely unaware they were cooperating with-- Zodiac. Meaning his cohorts would be aware he was a murderer, but not "that" murderer, not Zodiac.

It's theoy only and there are a lot of other theories on other threads RE: the strychnine which make a lot of sense, and no relation to Zodiac.

I do think at the very least, though, that Zodiac had at least "some" involvement in the SRHMurders.

Interesting about the use of strychnine in the vineyards, I worked at Mondavi winery in October 1969, bottling Christmas packages of wine. I was in a CBS TV movie, which was being filmed there, starring Burt Reynolds. It was named "Hunters are For Killing". Burt also had a stalker back then who was never caught. I often wonder if Zodiac was also an extra in that movie, or watched it being filmed in the Santa Rosa area. I doubt Zodiac was ever a rapist, but did some of the other SRH murders. I also believe Zodiac murdered Ellen Hansen in Santa Cruz County, March 29th, 1981. Witnesses who saw the killer said he didn't look like David Carpenter. The man they described fit my suspect, who claimed to be Zodiac!

 

[sandy betts]

Sandy--please contact the host of the Zodiac Speaking podcast with your information. I'm certain he would love to investigate.

He knows who I am and has probably read my thread on ZodiacKiller.com. I am not interested in doing any more podcasts.

 

[snooptroop88]

Also think Zodiac was involved in the arts/music in some way and obsessed with Eastern/Japanese culture. Mikado is set in Japan, and he references it very frequently. I'm at a loss for any other such work he mentions or alludes to with such frequency. I doubt it's a coincidence there was a production of Mikado gearing up for its upcoming opening night at Presentation Theater at University of San Francisco right around the time cabbie Stine was shot. Stine's cab was hailed in the theater district about a 12 min drive from Presentation Theatre. Stine & occupant were then headed to a location about four minutes from Presentation Theater. I believe Zodiac may have been at that theater earlier that day and was returning to a location near that area when he murdered Stine. In one of the same articles discussing this production, they note how work is continuing on another production (one I see being performed as early as 1959), "Lock Up Your Daughters."

From possible Zodiac letter: "Keep your sisters and wives and daughters off the streets and alleys" ... "I am stalking your girls now."

If he's in theater, even as a quasi-serious dabbler, he can put together some very good disguises, and I don't think he was lying about the disguises after seeing his bizarre medieval executioner's outfit.

Think his symbol with the cross through the circle is a sun cross reference and he's aware of Druidic symbols. College educated and at a pretty selective college. All jmo. And just adding note about the vineyard connection (I think Zodiac has one) and a possible keen interest in Eastern/Asian studies. A lot of Japanese people worked in the Sonoma vineyards, although their lives and livelihoods were seriously disrupted once WWII came with the internment camps. I'm seeing many of the people impacted tried to return, but it was something of a nightmare for them and many could not do so. Personally, I don't think Zodiac was himself japanese, but I'm wondering if he interacted with Japanese people in ways he'd have felt were meaningful. That could have happened in a vineyard environment.

 

[Oakie]

The frequent (and odd) misspellings of Zodiac's letters suggest that he was not well-educated (not a college graduate). Some might suggest that the misspellings were deliberate, but I don't believe they were.

I realize that, for younger web-sleuthers, this might seem surprising, as many college "graduates" nowadays are functionally illiterate; but that was certainly not the case in 1968!!

 

[snooptroop88]

The frequent (and odd) misspellings of Zodiac's letters suggest that he was not well-educated (not a college graduate). Some might suggest that the misspellings were deliberate, but I don't believe they were.

I realize that, for younger web-sleuthers, this might seem surprising, as many college "graduates" nowadays are functionally illiterate; but that was certainly not the case in 1968!!

Understood, used to think these were unintentional, but I now think the bulk of the misspellings & such were deliberate. Think he's quite shrewd and (unlike Rex Heuermann) in reality a pretty good speller. Think one of his parents or grandparents may have had difficulties mastering English and he may purposely mimic some of that in his letters.

Agreed though, there's just no way to know. But I mean, look at Heuermann's spelling, he was a well-respected and well-educated architect, his personal documents are riddled with spelling errors. Not being flippant when I say this, a lot of murderers appear to be very bad drivers and/or very bad spellers.

Have to say, few things would give me more pleasure than seeing Zodiac finally caught.

 

[Leprikawn]

I have always wondered why if they have DNA it has not been used to identify the killer? They apparently have used it to rule people out, so why not do what they did with the Golden state killer?

 

[JBowie]

I have always wondered why if they have DNA it has not been used to identify the killer? They apparently have used it to rule people out, so why not do what they did with the Golden state killer? [bbm]

DeAngelo was identified because his DNA matched, to a certain extent, that found on genetic genealogy databases. If none of his relatives had've submitted their DNA to one of the testing companies, then no match would have resulted.

Point is, this method will only work if relatives of suspects have voluntarily had their DNA tested so it is then searchable for matches.

 

[Oakie]

The only DNA swab taken in this case, that I'm aware of, came from the front of a stamp on one of the Zodiac envelopes....after the envelope had been handled by an army of law enforcement officers......it was useless.

I have reached the conclusion that the SFPD doesn't want to know who the killer was....they've never swabbed the flaps of envelopes to check for DNA from saliva. Why haven't they done so?

 

[Leprikawn]

DeAngelo was identified because his DNA matched, to a certain extent, that found on genetic genealogy databases. If none of his relatives had've submitted their DNA to one of the testing companies, then no match would have resulted.

Point is, this method will only work if relatives of suspects have voluntarily had their DNA tested so it is then searchable for matches.

Agreed but If I remember right it was a long distant cousin that they found and then worked to investigate the his family tree. All it takes is 1 relative to get the case going.

 

[Leprikawn]

The only DNA swab taken in this case, that I'm aware of, came from the front of a stamp on one of the Zodiac envelopes....after the envelope had been handled by an army of law enforcement officers......it was useless.

I have reached the conclusion that the SFPD doesn't want to know who the killer was....they've never swabbed the flaps of envelopes to check for DNA from saliva. Why haven't they done so?

Exactly why haven't they? I have seen on other cases where the police department over time doesnt want to actually get to the bottom of some of these cases. I think the reason is they are high profile and they know once it's solved they are going to face scrutiny.

 

[sandy betts]

The frequent (and odd) misspellings of Zodiac's letters suggest that he was not well-educated (not a college graduate). Some might suggest that the misspellings were deliberate, but I don't believe they were.

I realize that, for younger web-sleuthers, this might seem surprising, as many college "graduates" nowadays are functionally illiterate; but that was certainly not the case in 1968!!

I am very sure he was a poor speller, but did some on purpose, to cover up the fact that he was a poor speller. I believe he has some brain damage, possibly from a bad car accident. You can see how he forgets how to spell a word correctly, then later remembers.

In the Mel Belli letter, Dec. 20th, 1969, he wrote:" I will loose complet and crosses out complet and uses "all" in its place." Yet he thought he spelled loose (Lose) correctly. and misspelled Control and spelled it Controol. He was trying to impress Mel Belli by writing a neater letter. Yet he misspelled so many words.

When the killing costume was planted in our family car in Napa, on Sept 28th, or 29th,1969, there were many other items, one was an old Webster's dictionary, I believe he used it to help spell words like "consternation". I found a four-inch-long, brown hair caught between the pages of that dictionary. That should be tested for DNA! I sent an email a couple of days ago to the Napa sheriff's department. In the email, I added pictures of some of the items my suspect, who claims to be Zodiac, had left for me, one was a plastic red heart necklace, with the name "Cecelia" on the front, and a love poem on the back in Spanish. I sent an email to Bryan Hartnell, asking him if Cecelia had on that red heart necklace the day of their attack, and if she had a wristwatch. He never replied.

 

[Oakie]

The more I follow this case, the more it seems like a saga of apathy and serial incompetence among law enforcement officers.

 

[JBowie]

The more I follow this case, the more it seems like a saga of apathy and serial incompetence among law enforcement officers.

If you watch (e.g on YouTube) true crime TV shows that feature cold cases from that era you'll inevitably come to the conclusion that LE of the day too often missed vital clues and/or failed to thoroughly check the backgrounds of persons of interest.

Even without the benefit of modern DNA testing, computerized criminal records, and inter-departmental communications, good old police legwork was too often avoided, quite possibly because caseload pressures, but also I suspect because it was all too hard for some personnel back in the day.

 

[Leprikawn]

If you watch (e.g on YouTube) true crime TV shows that feature cold cases from that era you'll inevitably come to the conclusion that LE of the day too often missed vital clues and/or failed to thoroughly check the backgrounds of persons of interest.

Even without the benefit of modern DNA testing, computerized criminal records, and inter-departmental communications, good old police legwork was too often avoided, quite possibly because caseload pressures, but also I suspect because it was all too hard for some personnel back in the day.

And when you add in multiple jurisdictions it becomes even less so.

 

[DragonSpeaker]

The most logical thing to me is, the zodiac is 4 people. hence the symbol, with four lines converging into one.
The zodiac has 12 houses, but the houses are all based on 4 elements; earth, air, water, fire.
Earth signs are Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn. Air signs are Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius.
Water signs are Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces. Fire signs are Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius.

I think this is why they could never pin down one person- because it wasn't one person.
It's 4 people, one from each of the elements. So it could have been, for example, Taurus, Gemini, Scorpio, Leo.

 

[bdsjr]

Also think Zodiac was involved in the arts/music in some way and obsessed with Eastern/Japanese culture. Mikado is set in Japan, and he references it very frequently. I'm at a loss for any other such work he mentions or alludes to with such frequency. I doubt it's a coincidence there was a production of Mikado gearing up for its upcoming opening night at Presentation Theater at University of San Francisco right around the time cabbie Stine was shot. Stine's cab was hailed in the theater district about a 12 min drive from Presentation Theatre. Stine & occupant were then headed to a location about four minutes from Presentation Theater. I believe Zodiac may have been at that theater earlier that day and was returning to a location near that area when he murdered Stine. In one of the same articles discussing this production, they note how work is continuing on another production (one I see being performed as early as 1959), "Lock Up Your Daughters."

From possible Zodiac letter: "Keep your sisters and wives and daughters off the streets and alleys" ... "I am stalking your girls now."

If he's in theater, even as a quasi-serious dabbler, he can put together some very good disguises, and I don't think he was lying about the disguises after seeing his bizarre medieval executioner's outfit.

Think his symbol with the cross through the circle is a sun cross reference and he's aware of Druidic symbols. College educated and at a pretty selective college. All jmo. And just adding note about the vineyard connection (I think Zodiac has one) and a possible keen interest in Eastern/Asian studies. A lot of Japanese people worked in the Sonoma vineyards, although their lives and livelihoods were seriously disrupted once WWII came with the internment camps. I'm seeing many of the people impacted tried to return, but it was something of a nightmare for them and many could not do so. Personally, I don't think Zodiac was himself japanese, but I'm wondering if he interacted with Japanese people in ways he'd have felt were meaningful. That could have happened in a vineyard environment.

From what I can tell, that Mikado run by the Lamplighters company (Presentation Theatre at Turk and Masonic Streets) started on Saturday October 18th and ran it through Saturday November 8th, so about a week later from Paul Stine. However, the Grand Kabuki Japanese Company was running two different plays back to back ("Chushingura" and "Kagamijishi",17th century Samurai stuff) between October 9th and October 19th at the Curran Theatre located at 445 Geary St., just a few feet from the intersection of Geary and Mason where Paul Stine picked up Zodiac at 9:40pm on Saturday, October 11th. Start time that night was 8:30pm but I don't have the length of the show. However, 9:40pm seems like a reasonable time for a Saturday show to have a least one of the plays run. I think there is a very strong possibility that Zodiac was at that performance. He was around town on Sunday the 12th since the San Francisco Chronicle got his letter on Monday, October 13th meaing he mailed it late Sunday evening or Monday morning.

As far as the Mikado, the final showing was on Saturday, November 8th. The Zodiac mailed two letters that weekend, one on Saturday, and one on Sunday the 9th. This included the infamous bus bomb letter. With his fascination with the Mikado, I strongly suspect he was in that theatre on Saturday night, November 8th.

 

[Leprikawn]

Zodiac and Black Dahlia killer may have been same man, amateur codebreaking whiz claims: ‘Irrefutable’

Alex Baber used AI and an exhaustive investigation through public records to narrow down his suspect

nypost.com

 

[snooptroop88]

From what I can tell, that Mikado run by the Lamplighters company (Presentation Theatre at Turk and Masonic Streets) started on Saturday October 18th and ran it through Saturday November 8th, so about a week later from Paul Stine. However, the Grand Kabuki Japanese Company was running two different plays back to back ("Chushingura" and "Kagamijishi",17th century Samurai stuff) between October 9th and October 19th at the Curran Theatre located at 445 Geary St., just a few feet from the intersection of Geary and Mason where Paul Stine picked up Zodiac at 9:40pm on Saturday, October 11th. Start time that night was 8:30pm but I don't have the length of the show. However, 9:40pm seems like a reasonable time for a Saturday show to have a least one of the plays run. I think there is a very strong possibility that Zodiac was at that performance. He was around town on Sunday the 12th since the San Francisco Chronicle got his letter on Monday, October 13th meaing he mailed it late Sunday evening or Monday morning.

As far as the Mikado, the final showing was on Saturday, November 8th. The Zodiac mailed two letters that weekend, one on Saturday, and one on Sunday the 9th. This included the infamous bus bomb letter. With his fascination with the Mikado, I strongly suspect he was in that theatre on Saturday night, November 8th.

The Japanese company, that sounds right up his alley, but jmo. Because I'm guessing a possible obsession with all things Asian, suspecting he was behind the murder of Judith Hakari, a recently engaged woman, a student who worked in nursing, murdered in Sacramento 1970. "Hakari" is an actual word in Japanese. Putting all of this together, I think this could mean he probably looks like one of these suspect sketches in the Hakari case (and many have speculated this is a Zodiac case). And if more than one person was involved in the crime (and witness says there were three men digging for "antique bottles"near where the victim's remains were ultimately found, and what this witness notes-- I believe is the origin of these sketches), I don't think any disguise was employed and the other perps may not even have known they were working with Zodiac as such, they just may have thought him another of their little band of killers. But I think (??) a man resembling one of these sketches may well be Zodiac:

Agree with the people on here that Zodiac's in his late 80s now and know someone was saying he spoke Spanish, I think so, too, and maybe he also knows Portugese, which is incredibly similar to Spanish. He's into languages, perhaps.

And I know this post is lengthy already, and there are so many "ifs" in here already with Judith Hakari. I mean... Maybe? How are we ever going to really know...? But just wanted to mention one more thing that I have found completely bizarre since the second I saw it. Let me pull it up here. There's a 12 year old boy that disappeared on a Sierra Club pack trip, I think it was like a weeklong pack trip in Kings Canyon CA in 1962, several family members were with him. last time he was seen he was in the midst of a group of the hikers. His name is Alan Visher. A few hours later, he was missing, this would be at the point when it was time to set up camp. So this was a 12 year old boy, and LE was looking and looking, scouring the place, they never found him. So I tend to shudder when I look at this Zodiac image in light of this:

Sought victim 12... That could be ambiguous, the missing boy was certainly being sought, and he was 12. And notice how the "around in the snow" is way down at the bottom of the image, and upside down. If you look at a map, Kings Canyon is pretty much south and somewhat veering east from Lake Tahoe (still looking at map, seeing that Fresno's very near Kings Canyon, and Fresno's pretty much due south of Lake Tahoe) It pretty much never snows there in that area in Kings Canyon. And... Sierra Club. ??? And adding to my shuddering, I'm seeing that the Pines card employed a pre-dated envelope, which could actually have gone back to 1963. I'm not disputing that the card is referencing any other case, it seems pretty clear it does, just wondering if it isn't referencing more than one horrific event. But whether Zodiac has a hand in the events or is simply aware of them... ? Just adding a final note here as I'm looking at this, I checked if Kings Canyon has a lot of pines, yes. Quite a lot of them.

 

[snooptroop88]

The Japanese company, that sounds right up his alley, but jmo. Because I'm guessing a possible obsession with all things Asian, suspecting he was behind the murder of Judith Hakari, a recently engaged woman, a student who worked in nursing, murdered in Sacramento 1970. "Hakari" is an actual word in Japanese. Putting all of this together, I think this could mean he probably looks like one of these suspect sketches in the Hakari case (and many have speculated this is a Zodiac case). And if more than one person was involved in the crime (and witness says there were three men digging for "antique bottles"near where the victim's remains were ultimately found, and what this witness notes-- I believe is the origin of these sketches), I don't think any disguise was employed and the other perps may not even have known they were working with Zodiac as such, they just may have thought him another of their little band of killers. But I think (??) a man resembling one of these sketches may well be Zodiac:
View attachment 632752
Agree with the people on here that Zodiac's in his late 80s now and know someone was saying he spoke Spanish, I think so, too, and maybe he also knows Portugese, which is incredibly similar to Spanish. He's into languages, perhaps.

And I know this post is lengthy already, and there are so many "ifs" in here already with Judith Hakari. I mean... Maybe? How are we ever going to really know...? But just wanted to mention one more thing that I have found completely bizarre since the second I saw it. Let me pull it up here. There's a 12 year old boy that disappeared on a Sierra Club pack trip, I think it was like a weeklong pack trip in Kings Canyon CA in 1962, several family members were with him. last time he was seen he was in the midst of a group of the hikers. His name is Alan Visher. A few hours later, he was missing, this would be at the point when it was time to set up camp. So this was a 12 year old boy, and LE was looking and looking, scouring the place, they never found him. So I tend to shudder when I look at this Zodiac image in light of this:
View attachment 632763
Sought victim 12... That could be ambiguous, the missing boy was certainly being sought, and he was 12. And notice how the "around in the snow" is way down at the bottom of the image, and upside down. If you look at a map, Kings Canyon is pretty much south and somewhat veering east from Lake Tahoe (still looking at map, seeing that Fresno's very near Kings Canyon, and Fresno's pretty much due south of Lake Tahoe) It pretty much never snows there in that area in Kings Canyon. And... Sierra Club. ??? And adding to my shuddering, I'm seeing that the Pines card employed a pre-dated envelope, which could actually have gone back to 1963. I'm not disputing that the card is referencing any other case, it seems pretty clear it does, just wondering if it isn't referencing more than one horrific event. But whether Zodiac has a hand in the events or is simply aware of them... ? Just adding a final note here as I'm looking at this, I checked if Kings Canyon has a lot of pines, yes. Quite a lot of them.

CORRECTION, and quoting my own prior post here, point with the snow at Kings Canyon. I've been researching this for some time now, it actually DOES snow in Kings Canyon National Park, and sometimes quite heavily in areas of somewhat higher elevation (much lighter at lower elevations, but it definitely does exist there, too). This makes sense to me with the fact that the area contains alpine areas and subalpine forests, based on what I'm reading.

Camp for the missing boy, the place where he was noticed as missing, was at Simpson Meadow (based on what I've read), and from what I can see, Simpson Meadow is an alpine area, so lots of pine trees.

While I know this seems completely off the beaten path in terms of this card, which I know is always associated with Donna Lass, I will never forget my reaction after reading about 12-year-old Alan Visher and returning to that Zodiac card and seeing "Sought Victim 12." With "Sierra Club" prominently displayed.