Who do you think the Zodiac Killer actually is?

[bdsjr]

To be honest I have swung between two very different theories regarding Zodiac’s identity. I do think the Arthur Allen argument has merit as a lot of evidence does suggest he is responsible for the murders (especially his watch and his history with teens) but there’s something that nags me, a little voice that says it was someone the police never looked into as he was either a transient or else really good at hiding his true personality in daily life to the point no one who knew him connected him to the crimes. If the persona-hiding angle is true then that expands the pool of potential suspects exponentially. That’s why I wholeheartedly support and agree with your idea he was someone never arrested. It would fit with my theory of him being someone who was a master of hiding his true self behind many personas to the point no one could pick up on the depths of his true cruelty hiding behind the masks.

And regarding his last communication being actually in 2001 it might be true depending on how old he was when the killings started. Theoretically if he was a healthy, non-smoking individual he could have lived to a respectable old age and passed away somewhere in a nursing home around the early 2000s which theoretically would mean he would have lived long enough to see the movie based on his crimes be released in theaters. Also I do suspect he might have done earlier crimes (I might have even joked he was the Texarkana Killer but I seriously doubt it) which were never confidently tied to him. According to what I found it is suspected he was behind the 1962 murder of a taxi driver in Southern California, Ray Davis but officials and a lot of armchair detectives have doubts of it being his handiwork. Thoughts?

First off, your description of him hiding in plain site is exactly what I think is very possible. I will even go so far as to say that he may have been hiding in plain site on the east side of Vallejo somewhere in the triangle between Blue Rock Springs, Lake Herman Rd. and the Tuolumne/Springs Rd. phone booth. Most serial criminals start their stuff close to where they reside unless they are transient at the time (armed robberies is the very best example of this). The reason I think he was close to home in the first two confirmed, is because I really believe that 50% of the "fun" for the Zodiac was the difficult clues, the game, the outsmarting the police, making them look bad. He got off on that just as much as killing which is the other half. An example of a speculative clue from my perspective: the Zodiac told VPD dispatcher Nancy Slover, "If you'll go one mile east on Columbus Pkwy....." Do you know what street is exactly 1 mile east of that pay phone? Maple Ave. (at Springs Rd.), the same street name (in SF) he told Paul Stine to drive him to in the Yellow cab before making him go one more block west. The thing is, you couldn't go one mile east of that pay phone to Columbus Pkwy or one mile east on Columbus Pkwy. You could go one mile east of Maple on Springs and reach the intersection of Columbus. The directions don't really make sense except the part about the public park on Columbus Pkwy. Was he giving us a clue of some sort related to Maple St./Ave.?

If it comes back someday that he was right there under the noses of Vallejo PD and the Solano County Sheriff, can you imagine how much joy that brought him knowing they were within "arms reach" of him? If any of this turns out to be true, you are going to see some social camouflage big time: a good job, no criminal history, eventually a wife and kids or step-kids, decent family name, maybe well known in the community, church attendance, youth sports coach, the whole works. My theory is he did not look or act like the boogey man day to day. He looked like the guy next door, a regular dude, a ballgame and bbq kind of guy. But also, this guy could be as young as mid 20's in 1969 meaning by 2001, he could be as young as late 50's. There's a lot of disparity in ages but taken all together it is 25 to 45. That's a big range. I lean towards to the younger side because of: Michael Mageau at BRS saw his face close, through an open car window estimating 26 to 30 yoa. Bryan Hartnell at LB, a person who had an extended converstation with the actual killer, put the sound of his voice as being between 20 and 30 yoa.

The thing with Arthur Leigh Allen is fairly simple in my opinion. Not one shred of usable physical evidence ties him to the crimes. So, even if he did do it, he's never been connected so it is truly an unknown to us. Michael Mageau's 1991 almost positive ID is meaningless and prosecutors knew it. There's no point of wasting time on a guy like ALA. If he is guilty, only the DNA can confirm it.

The earlier crimes are all possibles in my opinion: Ray Davis 1962, Domingos/Edwards 1963, the Swindells 1964, Cheri Jo Bates, 1966, and even some others. Very similar MO's for sure. He could have started all of this as early as his early 20's. It is all possible but it is also not entirely impossible that some other monster was working down south at the time.

 

[GracefulD1an]

First off, your description of him hiding in plain site is exactly what I think is very possible. I will even go so far as to say that he may have been hiding in plain site on the east side of Vallejo somewhere in the triangle between Blue Rock Springs, Lake Herman Rd. and the Tuolumne/Springs Rd. phone booth. Most serial criminals start their stuff close to where they reside unless they are transient at the time (armed robberies is the very best example of this). The reason I think he was close to home in the first two confirmed, is because I really believe that 50% of the "fun" for the Zodiac was the difficult clues, the game, the outsmarting the police, making them look bad. He got off on that just as much as killing which is the other half. An example of a speculative clue from my perspective: the Zodiac told VPD dispatcher Nancy Slover, "If you'll go one mile east on Columbus Pkwy....." Do you know what street is exactly 1 mile east of that pay phone? Maple Ave. (at Springs Rd.), the same street name (in SF) he told Paul Stine to drive him to in the Yellow cab before making him go one more block west. The thing is, you couldn't go one mile east of that pay phone to Columbus Pkwy or one mile east on Columbus Pkwy. You could go one mile east of Maple on Springs and reach the intersection of Columbus. The directions don't really make sense except the part about the public park on Columbus Pkwy. Was he giving us a clue of some sort related to Maple St./Ave.?

If it comes back someday that he was right there under the noses of Vallejo PD and the Solano County Sheriff, can you imagine how much joy that brought him knowing they were within "arms reach" of him? If any of this turns out to be true, you are going to see some social camouflage big time: a good job, no criminal history, eventually a wife and kids or step-kids, decent family name, maybe well known in the community, church attendance, youth sports coach, the whole works. My theory is he did not look or act like the boogey man day to day. He looked like the guy next door, a regular dude, a ballgame and bbq kind of guy. But also, this guy could be as young as mid 20's in 1969 meaning by 2001, he could be as young as late 50's. There's a lot of disparity in ages but taken all together it is 25 to 45. That's a big range. I lean towards to the younger side because of: Michael Mageau at BRS saw his face close, through an open car window estimating 26 to 30 yoa. Bryan Hartnell at LB, a person who had an extended converstation with the actual killer, put the sound of his voice as being between 20 and 30 yoa.

The thing with Arthur Leigh Allen is fairly simple in my opinion. Not one shred of usable physical evidence ties him to the crimes. So, even if he did do it, he's never been connected so it is truly an unknown to us. Michael Mageau's 1991 almost positive ID is meaningless and prosecutors knew it. There's no point of wasting time on a guy like ALA. If he is guilty, only the DNA can confirm it.

The earlier crimes are all possibles in my opinion: Ray Davis 1962, Domingos/Edwards 1963, the Swindells 1964, Cheri Jo Bates, 1966, and even some others. Very similar MO's for sure. He could have started all of this as early as his early 20's. It is all possible but it is also not entirely impossible that some other monster was working down south at the time.

And don’t forget it is possible he moved from Southern California sometime after Ray Davis’ murder in 1962. Honestly I wouldn’t put it past him to have committed earlier crimes. He seemed like the type to secretly delight in sowing chaos and had a bit of a tiny flair for dramatics when committing his crimes compared to the mild-mannered, ordinary personas I think he used when interacting with people in his daily life.

Yeah that’s why I have doubts about the Allen theory. That and Steine’s murder is the anomaly from the other confirmed murders (a single person killed versus couples targeted). Allen was known to target children and teens which made me doubt Allen was the guy behind the Zodiac killings. To be fair if I wasn’t certain it was one person I would give credence to the theory of multiple people being responsible for the murders.

 

[bdsjr]

To be fair if I wasn’t certain it was one person I would give credence to the theory of multiple people being responsible for the murders.

A change in MO does not always make sense and you are right, if he hadn't proven it or claimed it, no connection would have been made, just another robbery and shooting of a poor cab driver by some recently paroled-born to lose-ne'er do well. I'm of the opinion that the Stine murder is a riddle, start to finish. We just haven't figured it out. That is in addition to him being able to control the scenario, get the shirt sample, and commit the murder in a well to do neighborhood in the region's flagship city, thereby ensuring maximum exposure and status.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Off topic but a weird coincidence, that creepy murderous Zizian cult group has ties to Vallejo.

I understand Vallejo is a big place, but the group lived on Curtis Lind's land at 633-3rd St (seems kind of close to some streets mentioned upthread?) where they attempted to murder Lind with a samurai sword. They eventually succeeded in killing Lind days before he was to testify against them Insane story really.

I have only heard Vallejo in connection to Zodiac so when I read about the Zizian connection I thought - how bizaare! Also, that I never want to go to Vallejo area lol...

 

[snooptroop88]

LE found a certain laundry sack of some kind left with Judy Hakari, and many believe she was a Zodiac victim. This sack was made special order for the San Juan Unified School District. So Richard Chase attended Mira Loma HS, which is in the San Juan Unified School District, graduated '68. Judy also attended there. She's about three years older than Richard Chase. Judy Hakari attended American River College for a time, Chase also went to American River College. What are the odds you're going to attend the same high school and college as an SK in roughly the same timeframe... that SK goes on to slaughter six people...you yourself get murdered, same rough time period...and it's NOT that SK? How likely is that to happen? Agreed at this particular time in US history, it's (unfortunately) not impossible, but how likely is it? And then there are the "bottle diggers" with Judy Hakari. Three young well-dressed guys were digging around the area where her remains were ultimately found, were concealing something in a trunk, when asked said they were digging for bottles. That's three men, not one. Here's a sketch of one Hakari murder suspect compared to Chase:

Compared to Richard Chase

Judy Hakari worked at Sutter Memorial in Sacramento. They've had a psych unit there since '58, at one point before the time Judy was murdered, Chase had seen a psychiatrist. I wonder where. To my knowledge, he was living in Sacramento at that time. Judy Hakari was recently engaged when murdered.

They found Judy about 40 miles northwest of her house, point where remains recovered along I-80. If you kept on that same route, you'd end up extremely near Pyramid Lake Reservation NV which is where they found Chase years later, dripping in cow's blood. What's especially interesting about Pyramid Lake is there is this one mentioned in Nevada, but there is also a Pyramid Lake in L.A. that was completed in 1972, it's called Pyramid Lake because it's located near Pyramid Rock (shaped like a pyramid). Kind of the paradice and slaves vibe, and I think Zodiac's into ambiguity, and there's some ambiguity there. And Richard Chase, when asked why he committed his first murder (drive-by) said he was miffed because Chase's mother didn't let him in for Christmas (thought of "Christmass" with Zodiac) Richard Chase at some point later in his timeline became a hypochondriac (thought of Zodiac emphasizing he was not sick, but insane)

Zodiac victim Darlene Ferris was said to have been afraid of someone, source of the info thought she'd mentioned the name "Richard" in association with that. Chase also could pretty much align with survivor Mike Mageau's description of Zodiac Richard Chase evidently had some map of the area with markings on it, per one source. He had diagrams on his kitchen table at another point relating to human biology. So even in his by-then warped and twisted state of mind, he was thinking somewhat along technical/scientific lines and weaving that into his patterns of madness. The thing with Chase is, he completely transformed in his lifetime, he was NOT always this unhygienic, this unstable, this out-of-control One person who saw him "before" and "after" over a period of years couldn't believe it was the same person-- literally, like she didn't recognize him. So I'd wonder was he just as angry back when he still retained some control?

I have no idea at this point if Chase is involved in any of this, but it's definitely weird to look at some of the parallels. Thinking your blood is turning to powder and that someone stole your artery seems in line with going to paradice by taking slaves. And it makes me think about a situation where if there were multiple perps... were they all on board with the letters to the editor thing? I doubt it? So which perp in such a scenario was the letter writer? Because potentially, I can't imagine his buddies being too amused.

 

[snooptroop88]

And just continuing to look here, here's a close-up of the image of the mysterious man with victim Darlene Ferrin, this photo has been much discussed:

Images of Richard Chase:

Darlene supposedly had noted the name "Richard" at some point in context of the attack/fears.

That's extremely weird. Seriously, but jmo.

 

[bdsjr]

LE found a certain laundry sack of some kind left with Judy Hakari, and many believe she was a Zodiac victim. This sack was made special order for the San Juan Unified School District. So Richard Chase attended Mira Loma HS, which is in the San Juan Unified School District, graduated '68. Judy also attended there. She's about three years older than Richard Chase. Judy Hakari attended American River College for a time, Chase also went to American River College. What are the odds you're going to attend the same high school and college as an SK in roughly the same timeframe... that SK goes on to slaughter six people...you yourself get murdered, same rough time period...and it's NOT that SK? How likely is that to happen? Agreed at this particular time in US history, it's (unfortunately) not impossible, but how likely is it? And then there are the "bottle diggers" with Judy Hakari. Three young well-dressed guys were digging around the area where her remains were ultimately found, were concealing something in a trunk, when asked said they were digging for bottles. That's three men, not one. Here's a sketch of one Hakari murder suspect compared to Chase:
View attachment 649002Compared to Richard ChaseView attachment 649003View attachment 649010
Judy Hakari worked at Sutter Memorial in Sacramento. They've had a psych unit there since '58, at one point before the time Judy was murdered, Chase had seen a psychiatrist. I wonder where. To my knowledge, he was living in Sacramento at that time. Judy Hakari was recently engaged when murdered.

They found Judy about 40 miles northwest of her house, point where remains recovered along I-80. If you kept on that same route, you'd end up extremely near Pyramid Lake Reservation NV which is where they found Chase years later, dripping in cow's blood. What's especially interesting about Pyramid Lake is there is this one mentioned in Nevada, but there is also a Pyramid Lake in L.A. that was completed in 1972, it's called Pyramid Lake because it's located near Pyramid Rock (shaped like a pyramid). Kind of the paradice and slaves vibe, and I think Zodiac's into ambiguity, and there's some ambiguity there. And Richard Chase, when asked why he committed his first murder (drive-by) said he was miffed because Chase's mother didn't let him in for Christmas (thought of "Christmass" with Zodiac) Richard Chase at some point later in his timeline became a hypochondriac (thought of Zodiac emphasizing he was not sick, but insane)

Zodiac victim Darlene Ferris was said to have been afraid of someone, source of the info thought she'd mentioned the name "Richard" in association with that. Chase also could pretty much align with survivor Mike Mageau's description of Zodiac Richard Chase evidently had some map of the area with markings on it, per one source. He had diagrams on his kitchen table at another point relating to human biology. So even in his by-then warped and twisted state of mind, he was thinking somewhat along technical/scientific lines and weaving that into his patterns of madness. The thing with Chase is, he completely transformed in his lifetime, he was NOT always this unhygienic, this unstable, this out-of-control One person who saw him "before" and "after" over a period of years couldn't believe it was the same person-- literally, like she didn't recognize him. So I'd wonder was he just as angry back when he still retained some control?

I have no idea at this point if Chase is involved in any of this, but it's definitely weird to look at some of the parallels. Thinking your blood is turning to powder and that someone stole your artery seems in line with going to paradice by taking slaves. And it makes me think about a situation where if there were multiple perps... were they all on board with the letters to the editor thing? I doubt it? So which perp in such a scenario was the letter writer? Because potentially, I can't imagine his buddies being too amused.

At the very least, his fingerprints should be compared to the Zodiac case latents. Fingerprint technology has improved so dramatically, especially last decade with the FBI's NGI system. Around 2013, the FBI was contacting state investigations bureaus to resubmit all cold case latents because of an improvement in algorithms, Hits were coming back after this on 10 print card files that had been in the system for years. What I don't know is whether or not SFPD or even Napa Co SO has ever done anything more with the latents they collected back then, especially in the last 13 years. Lots of of cool stuff has happened with fingerprints over that timeframe.

 

[GracefulD1an]

A change in MO does not always make sense and you are right, if he hadn't proven it or claimed it, no connection would have been made, just another robbery and shooting of a poor cab driver by some recently paroled-born to lose-ne'er do well. I'm of the opinion that the Stine murder is a riddle, start to finish. We just haven't figured it out. That is in addition to him being able to control the scenario, get the shirt sample, and commit the murder in a well to do neighborhood in the region's flagship city, thereby ensuring maximum exposure and status.

It is indeed a riddle. Why Stine? Out of all the people why did Zodiac choose Stine as a victim? There is just a gaping hole in this case and no clear answers.

 

[bdsjr]

It is indeed a riddle. Why Stine? Out of all the people why did Zodiac choose Stine as a victim? There is just a gaping hole in this case and no clear answers.

We'll probably never know why he chose Stine. It could have been as easy as it was the first available cab he saw so he waved him down, the plan already in place.

 

[GracefulD1an]

We'll probably never know why he chose Stine. It could have been as easy as it was the first available cab he saw so he waved him down, the plan already in place.

You might be right.

 

[snooptroop88]

We'll probably never know why he chose Stine. It could have been as easy as it was the first available cab he saw so he waved him down, the plan already in place.

You might be right.

Reading that there was a huge to-do in SF in 1969 over a law requiring bulletproof partitions to ensure driver safety. Most of the dirvers opposed it and the partitions didn't go in after all at that time. I have no idea if that has anything to do with why this psychopath chose this poor man. He seemed a very nice man, too, read a lot about him one day Paul Stine was married in 1967 and he attended San Francisco State University, where he was studying English, I believe. Aside from driving the cab, he also worked in life insurance,

Based on the Kathleen Johns story, I seriously think anyone with the misfortune to be isolated in a vehicle with Zodiac would be a potential target for him. It wouldn't be so much the victim himself or herself as the opportunity for another vicious crime. If things fell into place in just such a way and he was certain he'd get away cleanly, I don't think anyone would be "safe" in a vehicle with Zodiac. And he may have viewed cab drivers as ready targets for him--they're isolated with him in a vehicle, their eyes on the road rather than him, and they're total strangers who have no idea who they're picking up. Moreover, this idea of cab drivers as targets may have been sharply in the killer's mind from the 1969 legislative battle involving the issue of partitions.

Did he murder cab driver Ray Davis in 1962? Always thought so, obviously can't be sure. Does he have a "thing" with cab drivers? I doubt it. By nature of what cab drivers do & how it's done, Zodiac would gravitate towards them. There's actually a 1954 cab driver murder discussed by a few sources in the context of Zodiac, it was in LA. on Christmas day (Zodiac and "Christmass"), the driver Conrad John Favreau was taking the passenger for a short trip to Bonnie Brae, there was clearly intense struggle, the driver was murdered. LE found cartridge for a .25 automatic pistol.

 

[jilleigh]

Based on research you have done(if any) or if you just want to guess. I'm doing a research project and want to dive into more possible suspects!

If you are trying to build a list of possible suspects for research, start by focusing on motive, opportunity, and timeline instead of trying to name individuals first, look at who had access, who benefited from the outcome, and who was present or connected during key moments, then compare statements, documented movements, and any inconsistencies because patterns and verifiable facts usually narrow things down much faster than guessing names.

 

[GracefulD1an]

Reading that there was a huge to-do in SF in 1969 over a law requiring bulletproof partitions to ensure driver safety. Most of the dirvers opposed it and the partitions didn't go in after all at that time. I have no idea if that has anything to do with why this psychopath chose this poor man. He seemed a very nice man, too, read a lot about him one day Paul Stine was married in 1967 and he attended San Francisco State University, where he was studying English, I believe. Aside from driving the cab, he also worked in life insurance,

Based on the Kathleen Johns story, I seriously think anyone with the misfortune to be isolated in a vehicle with Zodiac would be a potential target for him. It wouldn't be so much the victim himself or herself as the opportunity for another vicious crime. If things fell into place in just such a way and he was certain he'd get away cleanly, I don't think anyone would be "safe" in a vehicle with Zodiac. And he may have viewed cab drivers as ready targets for him--they're isolated with him in a vehicle, their eyes on the road rather than him, and they're total strangers who have no idea who they're picking up. Moreover, this idea of cab drivers as targets may have been sharply in the killer's mind from the 1969 legislative battle involving the issue of partitions.

Did he murder cab driver Ray Davis in 1962? Always thought so, obviously can't be sure. Does he have a "thing" with cab drivers? I doubt it. By nature of what cab drivers do & how it's done, Zodiac would gravitate towards them. There's actually a 1954 cab driver murder discussed by a few sources in the context of Zodiac, it was in LA. on Christmas day (Zodiac and "Christmass"), the driver Conrad John Favreau was taking the passenger for a short trip to Bonnie Brae, there was clearly intense struggle, the driver was murdered. LE found cartridge for a .25 automatic pistol.

Mhm. You are making a good point. Still if Zodiac is also responsible for Ray Davis’ murder and the murder of Conrad Favreau then it only adds more complications to his actual age. I thought he was at least in his mid-late 20s when he began killing depending on which case you think is his work. If he was responsible for Mr. Favreau’s death then that would place him theoretically in his late teens/early 20s when that murder occurred and that’s if he is not the same person as the Texarkana Moonlight Killer as a few people think.

 

[Leprikawn]

I think one point we need to not forget is that the Zodiac got more thrills out of playing with the police than the actual killing. He wanted the public afraid and in a panic. If he had other victims I have no doubt in my mind that he would have bragged and exploited it for maximum effect.

 

[snooptroop88]

I think one point we need to not forget is that the Zodiac got more thrills out of playing with the police than the actual killing. He wanted the public afraid and in a panic. If he had other victims I have no doubt in my mind that he would have bragged and exploited it for maximum effect.

Totally agree he loves taunting the cops, but think @bdsjr pointed out he was shaking at one point during a killing. And it was like pure excitement for him, he was shaking from his lust. I tend to agree, honestly, So think he would kill without the letters. Also, thanks to his vicious little note about making his crimes look like accidents, rage killings, etc... he really didn't need to keep sending future letters to torment the cops.

And with that said, I continue to be freaked out by this thing with the Vampire of Sacramento. Trigger warning, the "paradice." I thought about that spelling way back when and completely dismissed one meaning of "dice"-- until I started reading about this Vampire of Sacramento and compared his timeline to Zodiac's (it's alarming, jmo). "Dice"-- everyone assumes it may refer to gambling and maybe it does (and still hoping it does because with his personality type, it seems logical that Zodiac would be a gambler). But to dice could also be to cut something (often relates to food) into tiny pieces. Zodiac's "peek through the pines" card has Sierra Club emphasized, Sierra Club operated Clair Tappaan Lodge not all that far from the location pictured in the card, Clair Tappaan Lodge is two minutes from Donner Pass. Donner Pass is about 25 miles from where they recovered the skull of Donna Lass.

This Vampire of Sacramento seems to have vanished from the public consciousness, I don't remember hearing anything about him when Dahmer was being dealt with.

 

[GracefulD1an]

Totally agree he loves taunting the cops, but think @bdsjr pointed out he was shaking at one point during a killing. And it was like pure excitement for him, he was shaking from his lust. I tend to agree, honestly, So think he would kill without the letters. Also, thanks to his vicious little note about making his crimes look like accidents, rage killings, etc... he really didn't need to keep sending future letters to torment the cops.

And with that said, I continue to be freaked out by this thing with the Vampire of Sacramento. Trigger warning, the "paradice." I thought about that spelling way back when and completely dismissed one meaning of "dice"-- until I started reading about this Vampire of Sacramento and compared his timeline to Zodiac's (it's alarming, jmo). "Dice"-- everyone assumes it may refer to gambling and maybe it does (and still hoping it does because with his personality type, it seems logical that Zodiac would be a gambler). But to dice could also be to cut something (often relates to food) into tiny pieces. Zodiac's "peek through the pines" card has Sierra Club emphasized, Sierra Club operated Clair Tappaan Lodge not all that far from the location pictured in the card, Clair Tappaan Lodge is two minutes from Donner Pass. Donner Pass is about 25 miles from where they recovered the skull of Donna Lass.

This Vampire of Sacramento seems to have vanished from the public consciousness, I don't remember hearing anything about him when Dahmer was being dealt with.

By the Tuatha de Dannan…I have never heard of the “vampire” but if you’re thinking he and Zodiac are the same person then that means he really was a psychopath hiding behind layers of personas. He really would be a prolific serial killer.