who killed devon and damon!!

[Goody]

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QUOTE=Goody][/b][/color][/color]

I just condenced that whole story by saying "once things settled down a bit" But thanks for clarifying it for the others. :blowkiss:

I understand wanting to condense it, but it sounded like you were saying he ran over to the Neal's the first chance he got and washed up to get rid of the evidence on his body before police phtographed him or checked him out closely. I just can't resist clearing up cloudy areas. It is the objective gene. Cain't hep it.

 

[Goody]

I think it makes as much sense that she would kill all 3 of the kids than to kill 2 and spare one.

It makes perfect sense from that view point, but if two parents want to get away with killing their kids, killing them all would make their own survival much harder to explain. Even if Darlie didn't know that, Darin surely would have.

Also, the fact that she didn't makes Darin appear innocent in the murders. So either he is or he arranged it that way without Darlie realizing it (that it would make him appear innocent and leave her out on the limb for the suspicion).

I think Devon and Damon were also defenseless. They loved and trusted their mother. One weighed 40 lbs at autopsy, the other 45 lbs.
That's about as close to defenseless as possible, isn't it?

Yes, but I said it sounded ridiculous. Devon did fight back so maybe in her eyes he wasn't defenseless. Realistically it makes no sense, but who knows what her reality was that night.

I can also pose the counter argument that at least one of the boys SAW and FELT his mother hurting him, and knew exactly that she was the one with the knife. If the child had lived, he could have testified against her. Also, the fact that the two older boys had reasoning abilities and language capabilities far exceeding Drake's makes it stranger to me that she did not also kill the one who really wouldn't have understood a thing about what was happening except to feel pain if this was a rage, loss of control crime.
Drake will always wonder if ( or know) his mother killed his brothers. That's not something I would imagine Darlie likes.

It also flies in the face of PPD. Women with it usually kill the baby or all the children. Look at those we've seen in the news lately. Delaney comes to mind where she tried to kill all three of hers and there was another one shortly after that (both in Texas) but I think that woman only had one infant. Point is, targeting the two older boys and not the baby reduces the PPD influences, I think.

I agree with you that the boys probably knew it was their mother attacking them. Damon definitely knew or he would have been crying for mommie. The fact that he didn't cry at all speaks volumes to me. And Devon has defensive wounds so he knew, even if he were attacked in his sleep.

Many people think Damon was killed because he could tell who did it.

Is your opinion about why Drake was spared influenced by the fact that it appears there was life insurance on the 2 older boys only, and not Drake?

Drake should have been automatically added. The policies on the boys was just a free rider attached to the policies on Darin and Darlie, which they paid for. I am not sure that would have been an issue but I am not that well versed in policies like that these days. Back in the 80s, the baby would have been automatically covered from birth but who knows what kind of clauses that might be contingent on these days?

 

[cami]

i know alot of people think she is guilty i am still on the fence, i just dont know what the motive was, it doesnt make sense at all......

and that's why there is never a burden on the state to prove motive. The prosecutors have no idea why a mother would brutally murder her two sons, it doesn't make sense to them either. Mothers are nurturers in most instances, not killers of their own flesh and blood.

 

[cami]

The pants are still in custody. I don't remember if the state said they didn't test them or if it didn't come up because he wasn't a defendant. Plus with the defense not targeting him, there would not have been a foundation to bring them into the trial, as far as I am aware .


They had two vacuum cleaners. One was in the formal living room and the other in the kitchen. I am not sure which one she used to clean up the dirt you are talking about. Leaning on it instead of the counter she was standing right next to is pretty lame as someone said. It is also not believable. Doesn't she say on the 911 tape that she is just going to sit here or something like that, indicating that she wasn't standing at all?

3) Darin says under oath that he knows exactly what happened the entire time that night. Why the heck he wasn't arrested and tried too is a travesty. The only way he could have known what happened the entire time is, of course, if he was downstairs participating in the crime.

Because there is no physical evidence linking him to the actual murders.



I guess some people do sleep in big earrings as well as little one. I wouldn't have when I wore them many moons ago. I did sleep in my rings though, except the really big ones. I don't think it proves much one way or the other though.

Also, earlier that day Darlie brought her jewelry down from upstairs to show the housekeeper, who was the mother of her friend and shop employee, Basia. The old woman was said to have known a lot about "good" jewelry, and she said Darlie told her she needed to sell it because she needed $10,000. Darlie asked her if she knew anyone who might buy it,

Now this is a double edged sword for me because, on one hand, her bringing the jewelry downstairs shows premeditation to me. It looks like she was creating a witness to the fact that she had a good reason to bring the jewelry downstairs. An effort to deflect guilt on her part, and doing it well in advance of the crime.

But then you have her telling someone she needed the exact amount of the insurance money. Why would she do that if she were trying to set the wheels in motion to deflect her guilt? Maybe because she just unconsciously shoots herself in the foot a lot. I don't know. But I am still betting that the jewelry was brought downstairs for a specific purpose and that was to establish that she brought it downstairs earlier in the day to show to Halina.

And why would she ask Halina if she knew anyone who might buy it. Halina obviously couldn't afford it or she would not have cleaning house for Darlie. Plus she had only been in Texas for about three months. Who would she possibly know? I don't think she cleaned any other houses. The whole story about this incident seems out of sync with the rest of the case. And there is more than one thing like this that is out of sync.

6) Darlie says she had been sleeping downstairs for about a week ( didn't these people have a guest room for goodness' sake??) [/QUOTE]
As a matter of fact they did have an extra bedroom. Plus they had an upstairs game room with another big screen TV. Damon's room was the one called the Mickey Mouse room. He didn't like ti and preferred to sleep in Devon's room where there were bunk beds. They could have easily watched their movie on the big screen TV upstairs, which I believe was the new one, and Darlie could have retired to the MM room after the boys fell asleep. Just being downstairs like that seems prearranged. Why would anyone sleep on a vinyl couch for 5 days just because they are mad at their husband over some money issue when there was a bed in a separate bedroom no one was using?


Even without those , he had already established a MO of stabbing in the upper torso. Why would he stop that method and go for a throat that was difficult to get to (because of those DDs as you say, not to mention a woman sleeping on her side, probably curled up)? Take one swipe and make a couple of jabs that were less than an inch deep and not located anywhere near a major organ? It makes no sense.


I was really mad at Darlie when I realized she was guilty, but really it was just my own inexperience in looking at and analyzing evidence that allowed me to doubt the state's case. Most defendants do give in once they know the gig is up and confess, but there are some who will NEVER admit they did anything wrong and actually (for lack of a better word) get off on confusing people or withholding that one bit of information they know the cops and prosecutors really want. I guess I would term most of them narcissistic, like Jeffrey MacDonald and crazy Manson and that guy in Virginia who gives me chills everytime he opens his mouth...he played girlfriend and wife against each other, finally getting the grilfriend to kill the wife. Can't remember his name but he tried to establish himself as some kind of weird guru, talking about space aliens, etc. I always wondered if he had a poster of Ira Einhorn in his room. (oops, like I wandered a bit.)


This is my only real criticism of the RPD. I don't think they interrogated these two aggressively enough. I think they were too soft on them. I understand that they didn't want them to get scared and lawyer up because then communication would have been cut off, but I really think they needed an Andy Sipowitcz and his partner Bobby on this team, to good cop/bad cop them. I think Darin would have caved if he thought HE was going to take the fall for it. Darlie, I am not so sure. She has the stamina to hang tight in the toughest of situations, or so it seems. Or maybe that is just as illusion created by her refusal to confess. I am amazed though that she has never confided in anyone at any time. Surely someone besides the minister knows what she did.


It could be as simple as the Paul and Karla team in Canada. Maybe apart they wouldn't be likely to do such horrible things. It is the combination of the two, the support and motivation they receive from each other that creates the monsters.

Narcissists, huh? This term keeps popping up. At the risk of getting torpedoed again, I have to ask if all one has to be is selfish to fall under this label? If so, how selfish is selfish enough to win one the title? And how consistent does one have to be selfish? Should there be a pattern of many selfish acts or is one or two sufficient? Just wondering.[/QUOTE]


Narcissism goes beyond being selfish....... it's more of a sense of entitlement without regard for the feelings of others. A lack of empathy (cake in Devon's face), constantly envious of others OR believes they feel the same about him/her (paying neighbour's mortgage, paying for the mother's day strip parties), arrogant, haughty behaviour (pawn shop) coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted or confronted (hollering and cursing at the kids, locking them out), (the murders). These are just my opinions only so don't take them to the bank.

We are all selfish to a certain degree are we not? Then we would all be narcissists if that's the only criteria. There is a whole range of narcissistic reactions - from the mild, reactive and transient to the permanent personality disorder.

 

[CyberLaw]

I recall a survey done one time: The cost of raising a child to the age of 18 is like 100K. That does not include things like sports, braces, University, a car at 16.

It is the "basic" expenses, so when Darlie saw the two boys she saw them as expenses that were always going to be expenses. She saw them as "using up" the megre family resources.

So it may not have been the insurance money directly, but since they did bury them in one casket and one plot, the cost of burial would be half.

But any future money that the family would have would only have to put towards two adults and one child(who is a lot less expensive then older children)so in essence they cut their family expenses quite a bit with the murder. Supporting one child who is a baby, is a lot different then supporting 2 older kids and one baby. Now you have reduced your dependents by 2/3.

By the way, anyone is capable of anything for what ever reason that they seems to "justify" it in their mind.

Nothing surprises me anyone, really nothing. Not the mother who pours bleach down her daughters throat, who stabs her kids, who shoots or smothers her kids, who scalds her kids, who "sells" your daughter, who "invites" a man to "visit" her daughter bedroom, who gives their kids drugs, who has their kids sell drugs for them, to leaving a new born in a trash container, who lights a house fire and tells the kids not to leave their room, to a parents who lockkids up in cages. To people who beat a child into a coma.

Really nothing surprises me anymore. It is not a stretch that Darlie killed her kids. Unfortunately, parents, Dad's and mothers have done a lot worse. Darlie should have been therapy, actually both her and Hubby, maybe that might have saved the kids lives.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I don't think the murders had anything directly to do with "money," but the stresses that living beyond one's means brings. I do feel that she thought that there would be donations from the community though.

 

[Goody]

Narcissism goes beyond being selfish....... it's more of a sense of entitlement without regard for the feelings of others. A lack of empathy (cake in Devon's face), constantly envious of others OR believes they feel the same about him/her (paying neighbour's mortgage, paying for the mother's day strip parties), arrogant, haughty behaviour (pawn shop) coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted or confronted (hollering and cursing at the kids, locking them out), (the murders). These are just my opinions only so don't take them to the bank.

We are all selfish to a certain degree are we not? Then we would all be narcissists if that's the only criteria. There is a whole range of narcissistic reactions - from the mild, reactive and transient to the permanent personality disorder.

Okay. Shoving the cake in Devon's face was only one incident of lack of empathy for others. So does that mean that any one of us who perhaps shoved a piece of cake in their child's face qualifies for the lack of empathy requirement? Do we have any other instances of lack of empathy to show a pattern other than the actual murders?

Same with the poor behavior in the pawn shop. Am I the only one who has showed their butt in public before? Does throwing a bag of cokes back into a drive thru window quality? How about dumping a pitcher of Kool Aid on your kid's head for making messes? (I was pregnant and really fed up with their behavior that day.) My kids say I am the most loving Mom they know (when they aren't mad at me), so do these behavior flaws make me the most loving narcisscistic mom or am I missing something here?

I am not saying you are wrong about Darlie because I really don't know. It just disturbs me a little when we don't have patterns to make a fair judgment on. Putting everything in all the books together with the testimony, I still don't see enough pattern to really label her. I know I have called her narcisscistic before, but with great hesitation, and now I am rethinking it again.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

One of my MAJOR problems with Darlie as a parent is that she let those boys roam around the neighborhood alone. The neighbors all knew the boys and they saw Darin from time-to-time, but saw the BOYS OUTSIDE CONSTANTLY. That speaks volumes to me about what type of parent she was. I've got a 11 and 12 year old at home and they've got tons of friends. NONE of them are allowed to roam around the neighborhood alone and never were.

 

[Goody]

One of my MAJOR problems with Darlie as a parent is that she let those boys roam around the neighborhood alone. The neighbors all knew the boys and they saw Darin from time-to-time, but saw the BOYS OUTSIDE CONSTANTLY. That speaks volumes to me about what type of parent she was. I've got a 11 and 12 year old at home and they've got tons of friends. NONE of them are allowed to roam around the neighborhood alone and never were.

I agree. Things like that tell me that she was not a devoted parent. Gosh, I was a nanny for 4 boys at aged 18 (me, not them..LOL) and I didn't let any of them run around the neighborhood either. Those who came before me did though and one time the mother was called at work by a neighbor to tell her that two of them were on the roof of her house sword fighting with butcher knives!! That is what happens when kids are left unsupervised for long periods of time. Reports of them playing in construction sites unsupervised disturbed me, too. Very dangerous.

I think she was an inattentive parent except when they had something planned, then she was right there in the center of things making sure they had a good time. That is why I have said before that I think she gave them mixed signals and that it probably confused them about what was and was not acceptable behavior which probably frustrated her because she couldn't understand why they didn't get it.

 

[beesy]

]

Okay. Shoving the cake in Devon's face was only one incident of lack of empathy for others. So does that mean that any one of us who perhaps shoved a piece of cake in their child's face qualifies for the lack of empathy requirement? Do we have any other instances of lack of empathy to show a pattern other than the actual murders?

You never know what goes on behind locked doors Goody Goody Gumdrops. I think that bothers me because if she did that for others to see, what did she do to them in private? I do think Darlie THINKS she loved/s them and others. I just don't think she can feel love the way most people do.

Same with the poor behavior in the pawn shop. Am I the only one who has showed their butt in public before? Does throwing a bag of cokes back into a drive thru window quality? How about dumping a pitcher of Kool Aid on your kid's head for making messes? (I was pregnant and really fed up with their behavior that day.) My kids say I am the most loving Mom they know (when they aren't mad at me), so do these behavior flaws make me the most loving narcisscistic mom or am I missing something here

My butt has never been in a pawn shop. Not passing judgement, just answering your question.
I'm not sure we should ever meet Goody, what with you throwing cokes at MacDonald's workers and me thowing a big bag of Swedish Fish candy at the pharmacist, I imagine we'd end up beaten up, sued or in jail. Oh yeah, and there was that time I screamed at a girl in a parking lot when she wouldn't move her fat *** out of the way and I hit the curb. She deserved that though. And the time that I chewed a lady out at the grocery store for taking the cart I wanted. Is that narcisstic behavior? Well, it was MY freaking cart, MINE! Personality disorders aside, Darlie crossed the line many times before she finally cracked and many of the instances involved her children.

 

[beesy]

One of my MAJOR problems with Darlie as a parent is that she let those boys roam around the neighborhood alone. The neighbors all knew the boys and they saw Darin from time-to-time, but saw the BOYS OUTSIDE CONSTANTLY. That speaks volumes to me about what type of parent she was. I've got a 11 and 12 year old at home and they've got tons of friends. NONE of them are allowed to roam around the neighborhood alone and never were.

That and the hot tub bothers me. Young children aren't even supposed to be in a hot tub, raises their body temps too high and sends their hearts into frenzies. It was far away from house and nobody would have been able to help if needed. It wouldn't take much for a 5 and 6 yr old to slip and not be able to get back up. You're not even supposed to leave a child alone in the bathtub, much less a large overheated tub nowhere near help!

 

[Goody]

My butt has never been in a pawn shop. Not passing judgement, just answering your question.
I'm not sure we should ever meet Goody, what with you throwing cokes at MacDonald's workers and me thowing a big bag of Swedish Fish candy at the pharmacist, I imagine we'd end up beaten up, sued or in jail. Oh yeah, and there was that time I screamed at a girl in a parking lot when she wouldn't move her fat *** out of the way and I hit the curb. She deserved that though. And the time that I chewed a lady out at the grocery store for taking the cart I wanted. Is that narcisstic behavior? Well, it was MY freaking cart, MINE! Personality disorders aside, Darlie crossed the line many times before she finally cracked and many of the instances involved her children.

Not saying she didn't, but I would like to know what they were. I mean, everyone who knew Dr. Deborah Green had stories to tell about her ill behavior. It was a no brainer that she had some kind of mental disorder. (Turned out to be bipolar, I think.) Someone has to know what Darlie's flaws are.

 

[Goody]

That and the hot tub bothers me. Young children aren't even supposed to be in a hot tub, raises their body temps too high and sends their hearts into frenzies. It was far away from house and nobody would have been able to help if needed. It wouldn't take much for a 5 and 6 yr old to slip and not be able to get back up. You're not even supposed to leave a child alone in the bathtub, much a large overheated tub nowhere near help!

I agree. I arched my back on that one, too. The Routiers took a lot for granted with the safety of their children. Chances I wouldn't take, but there are a lot of parents who are just as lax and somehow their kids make to adulthood.

 

[beesy]

I agree. I arched my back on that one, too. The Routiers took a lot for granted with the safety of their children. Chances I wouldn't take, but there are a lot of parents who are just as lax and somehow their kids make to adulthood.

The Routier boys didn't though, did they?

 

[deanws]

Okay. Shoving the cake in Devon's face was only one incident of lack of empathy for others. So does that mean that any one of us who perhaps shoved a piece of cake in their child's face qualifies for the lack of empathy requirement? Do we have any other instances of lack of empathy to show a pattern other than the actual murders?

Same with the poor behavior in the pawn shop. Am I the only one who has showed their butt in public before? Does throwing a bag of cokes back into a drive thru window quality? How about dumping a pitcher of Kool Aid on your kid's head for making messes? (I was pregnant and really fed up with their behavior that day.) My kids say I am the most loving Mom they know (when they aren't mad at me), so do these behavior flaws make me the most loving narcisscistic mom or am I missing something here?

I am not saying you are wrong about Darlie because I really don't know. It just disturbs me a little when we don't have patterns to make a fair judgment on. Putting everything in all the books together with the testimony, I still don't see enough pattern to really label her. I know I have called her narcisscistic before, but with great hesitation, and now I am rethinking it again.

You threw the cokes back through the drive in window? OMGosh!! LOL....WHY? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[SnootyVixen]

QUOTE]


Narcissism goes beyond being selfish....... it's more of a sense of entitlement without regard for the feelings of others. A lack of empathy (cake in Devon's face), constantly envious of others OR believes they feel the same about him/her (paying neighbour's mortgage, paying for the mother's day strip parties), arrogant, haughty behaviour (pawn shop) coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted or confronted (hollering and cursing at the kids, locking them out), (the murders). These are just my opinions only so don't take them to the bank..[/QUOTE]

Is there a word for people who feel that they come to really develope a knowing of another person through these forums and newspaper articles and reinactments on television so that they can diagnose them with psychological conditions? Surely there is one. For this is indeed strange and bizarre behavior do not you think?

 

[deanws]

[/color]
You never know what goes on behind locked doors Goody Goody Gumdrops. I think that bothers me because if she did that for others to see, what did she do to them in private? I do think Darlie THINKS she loved/s them and others. I just don't think she can feel love the way most people do.

My butt has never been in a pawn shop. Not passing judgement, just answering your question.
I'm not sure we should ever meet Goody, what with you throwing cokes at MacDonald's workers and me thowing a big bag of Swedish Fish candy at the pharmacist, I imagine we'd end up beaten up, sued or in jail. Oh yeah, and there was that time I screamed at a girl in a parking lot when she wouldn't move her fat *** out of the way and I hit the curb. She deserved that though. And the time that I chewed a lady out at the grocery store for taking the cart I wanted. Is that narcisstic behavior? Well, it was MY freaking cart, MINE! Personality disorders aside, Darlie crossed the line many times before she finally cracked and many of the instances involved her children.

Yall are some wild women!!! OMgosh. I have never done stuff like this! LMAO!!!!:laugh:

 

[deanws]

QUOTE]

Is there a word for people who feel that they come to really develope a knowing of another person through these forums and newspaper articles and reinactments on television so that they can diagnose them with psychological conditions? Surely there is one. For this is indeed strange and bizarre behavior do not you think?

Not really. Some people are just so easy to see through.

 

[beesy]

Yall are some wild women!!! OMgosh. I gave never done stuff like this! LMAO!!!!:laugh:

I didn't hit the pharmacist! It was more towards him, not AT him. Does that make it better? :crazy:

 

[deanws]

I didn't hit the pharmacist! It was more towards him, not AT him. Does that make it better? :crazy:

LOL! Tell the whole story.:laugh: