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Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

who molested/abused JB?

  • JR

    Votes: 180 27.1%
  • BR

    Votes: 203 30.6%
  • JAR

    Votes: 28 4.2%
  • a close family friend

    Votes: 41 6.2%
  • a stranger/stalker a la JMK

    Votes: 20 3.0%
  • PR-it wasn't sexual abuse,it was corporal punishment

    Votes: 89 13.4%
  • she wasn't previously abused/molested

    Votes: 103 15.5%

  • Total voters
    664
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Reading over some material and I came across again about the calls to Dr Beuf, 6:28, 6:50, 6:59, this was on December 7th. If you had called your daughters pediatrician 3 times in less than an hour why in the world could you (PR) not remember why... All of these "I dont remember, I just dont know", im surprised she knew her own name. I just wonder what happened to JB that night that made PR call the Dr so many times. Im sure us RDI folks have a pretty good idea. And as for the medical records, why could they not have gotten those(AH apparently saw no reason to I guess)
 
Reading over some material and I came across again about the calls to Dr Beuf, 6:28, 6:50, 6:59, this was on December 7th. If you had called your daughters pediatrician 3 times in less than an hour why in the world could you (PR) not remember why... All of these "I dont remember, I just dont know", im surprised she knew her own name. I just wonder what happened to JB that night that made PR call the Dr so many times. Im sure us RDI folks have a pretty good idea.
Isn't it odd also that these phone contacts weren't mentioned by the good doctor in the hand-written notes he made from his records and turned over to Det. Harmer during the investigation? Other phone calls were noted -- but nothing on the three calls made within a single hour on December 7. Something important enough for a mother to make three after-hour phone calls about, and yet she (and the doctor) can't remember the subject of the calls. (Yeah, right. :rolleyes: )

And as for the medical records, why could they not have gotten those(AH apparently saw no reason to I guess)
I think they simply accepted Dr. Beuf's offer to write out what he felt was important so he could claim to be maintaining doctor/patient confidentiality. This was (I think) part of the "island of privacy" that was agreed upon in order to get the Ramseys to simply sit down and answer (some of) investigators' questions.
 
Mama2JML,
Its difficult to tell if Coroner Meyer is being deliberately cryptic or technically precise. My interpretation of these phrases is:

"vascular congestion": The organ concerned is engorged with blood, i.e. a state of tumescence or swelling. I assume this is how Coroner Meyer arrived at the conclusion of Sexual Contact.

"capillary congestion": The capillaries are blocked. I'm not certain what the cause was here, others might offer some insight?

"a small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface": Certainly indicates prior bleeding, the source might be ambiguous.

Is abrasion = epithelial erosion, in this context?: I would assume the abrasion refers to direct contact with a foreign object which has broken the skin and caused bleeding, and the epithelial erosion likely refers to the removal of skin surrounding JonBenet's hymen.

Corner Meyer is not giving much away here is he, I reckon birefringent foreign material is technical jargon which allows an implicit redaction, but is important in sequencing any staging scenarios?

...

Have since listened to Wecht's interpretation and he states that the epithelial erosion refers to the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, i.e. evidence of chronic abuse?


.
T believe the foreign material in the vagina was found to be talc from powder.
 
T believe the foreign material in the vagina was found to be talc from powder.

That had been suggested, but I do not believe it was ever proven. The birefringent (reflective) material had been said to be talc, paint chips from the brush and wood splinters. But is was not determined exactly what it really was. At least not publicly.
 
Reading over some material and I came across again about the calls to Dr Beuf, 6:28, 6:50, 6:59, this was on December 7th. If you had called your daughters pediatrician 3 times in less than an hour why in the world could you (PR) not remember why... All of these "I dont remember, I just dont know", im surprised she knew her own name. I just wonder what happened to JB that night that made PR call the Dr so many times. Im sure us RDI folks have a pretty good idea. And as for the medical records, why could they not have gotten those(AH apparently saw no reason to I guess)

Dr Boef stated that he would never turn the medical records over to police, and if subpoenaed, he would "burn them" were his exact words. AH could have obtained a warrant from a judge for the medical records, and if Boef had "burned them" or refused to turn them over he could have been arrested for that. AH never had any intention of obtaining warrants for them. The same for the school records. JB visited the school nurse many times, often on a Monday. (after she'd been home all weekend, allowing whoever was molesting her to get to her).
 
LE has JB's medical records, including those from Dr. Beuf.


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How do you know this?
This topic has been discussed in all the books. ...& in the MSM, sworn depositions, LE interviews, etc.

If you have PMPT handy, see chapter 5; ALL of chapter 5. In summary, (& according to Schiller) Dr. Beuf retained JonBenet's original medical records, but the Ramseys signed waivers permitting Dr. Beuf to release all information comprising JonBenet's medical history to LE in early February of '97. Detective Harmer was assigned the task of interviewing nurses & Beuf. Harmer also reviewed & recorded the contents of JonBenet's medical history.




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If is true or not that LE has the records, he still made the comment about burning the records.
 
Dr Boef stated that he would never turn the medical records over to police, and if subpoenaed, he would "burn them" were his exact words. AH could have obtained a warrant from a judge for the medical records, and if Boef had "burned them" or refused to turn them over he could have been arrested for that. AH never had any intention of obtaining warrants for them. The same for the school records. JB visited the school nurse many times, often on a Monday. (after she'd been home all weekend, allowing whoever was molesting her to get to her).
DeeDee, about the nurse visits, she was said to become very clingy with Patsy during the month of Dec. Like you posted the visits were always on a Monday, after the weekend. But if BR was the abuser, he had a constant chance of abusing her. And the phone calls to the DR, add in the 911 call on the 23rd all played a part in leading up to her murder. Which imo, wasnt premeditated
 
Consider this account from PMPT (nook p. 261):

"In early December, JonBenét missed a pageant appearance because she was sick, but she didn’t see Dr. Beuf." (Schiller, 1999)​

Perhaps JonBenét's two school nurse visits and the phone calls to Beuf's office on 12.07.96 were made because she wasn't feeling well, she had a cold, or she hadn't quite kicked the sinus infection her pediatrician diagnosed in mid-November? Regarding JonBenét's reported "clinginess" to Patsy, (Per the Bonita Papers; via a teacher? Not sure of the source.) If a child of age 6 is feeling unwell, a sudden clinginess to 'mom' would be a natural result. IMHO.
 
DeeDee, about the nurse visits, she was said to become very clingy with Patsy during the month of Dec. Like you posted the visits were always on a Monday, after the weekend. But if BR was the abuser, he had a constant chance of abusing her. And the phone calls to the DR, add in the 911 call on the 23rd all played a part in leading up to her murder. Which imo, wasnt premeditated

I agree the murder wasn't premeditated. I also read that JB had become clingy with Patsy. While it is true that BR had daily access to his sister, kids' schooldays during the week are more scheduled- especially with JB's full slate of dance and voice coaching. The weekends may have been less structured. And the kids had more free time. There is also the likelihood that JB's college-age half brother spent most weekends during the school year at his father's house. And as many feel, there could have been abuse by more than one family member.
 
I agree the murder wasn't premeditated. I also read that JB had become clingy with Patsy. While it is true that BR had daily access to his sister, kids' schooldays during the week are more scheduled- especially with JB's full slate of dance and voice coaching. The weekends may have been less structured. And the kids had more free time. There is also the likelihood that JB's college-age half brother spent most weekends during the school year at his father's house. And as many feel, there could have been abuse by more than one family member.

DeeDee249,
This is something we could check on, i.e. was he present on any weekend running upto Christmas?

.
 
DeeDee249,
This is something we could check on, i.e. was he present on any weekend running upto Christmas?

.
Classes ceased December 11th. Finals' week commenced December 13th. John Andrew flew home to GA December 19th as the semester officially ended December 20th. This leaves three December weekends. I've filled in some dates, others can feel free to copy, add to & edit for accuracy...

Fri 11.29:
Sat 11.30: Patsy's Birthday Party (Savage)
Sun 12.01: AG Party? (Savage)

Fri 12.06: Parade (Don/Nedra Paugh) J&P @ NY
Sat 12.07: J&P @ NY
Sun 12.08: J&P @ NY

Fri 12.13: Church Foyer Party @ Ramseys
Sat 12.14:
Sun 12.15:




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Reading through PR interview in 98, and she was talking about JB and private parts, she said only mommy can help(no one else to touch) and Dr Beuf only if mommy was in the room. I just wonder if JB was telling PR that someone was messing with her. Add in the 3 phone calls to Dr Beuf in December, to me its obvious PR knew and so did the Dr, thats why she told JB its ok for mommy to look and the Dr, but no one else. Maybe the screaming and yelling LHP heard in the bathroom between PR and JB was JB screaming because she hurt down there, because of the molestation
 
Reading through PR interview in 98, and she was talking about JB and private parts, she said only mommy can help(no one else to touch) and Dr Beuf only if mommy was in the room. I just wonder if JB was telling PR that someone was messing with her. Add in the 3 phone calls to Dr Beuf in December, to me its obvious PR knew and so did the Dr, thats why she told JB its ok for mommy to look and the Dr, but no one else. Maybe the screaming and yelling LHP heard in the bathroom between PR and JB was JB screaming because she hurt down there, because of the molestation

What Patsy said was very different from the reality of JB's life. She was said to ask ANYONE, male or female, within earshot to help wipe her in the bathroom. FW speaks of refusing to help her when she was at his house playing with his daughter. So obviously JB felt her mother didn't mean no one could touch her there when she pooped.
 
Patsy said she had that discussion with JB, but that doesn't mean it happened. There is a lot of reason to suspect her of killing that little girl, but there is even more reason to believe that she covered up a sexual assault. We know that the sexual assaults on JB were ongoing so it is also reasonable to assume that Patsy was either involved in those assaults or actively involved in the coverup of those assaults. So, for her to say that she warned JB about letting anybody but her and her doctor touch her private areas seems that it would be a stupid conversation to have.


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What I got out of that interview is that PR knew that JB was being molested, imo thats why she told JB that no one(not daddy, BR, or grandpa) was allowed to touch her there. So she knew she was being molested and she was explaining to her that no one could touch, except for mommy and Dr Beuf. And yes JB asked anyone to come and wipe her when she went to go potty, which is where the parent should have stepped in and told her thats not okay.
 
I will say here that I was the court-appointed supervisor years ago for supervised visitation for a mother who had sexually molested her two young children. I believe the root of her behavior was the sexual abuse she suffered herself as a child, her obsessive-compulsive nature, and thinking her children were literally an extension of her own body that she 'owned'. The memory of those visitations still gives me goosebumps.

I have always FELT things very strongly about this case...not that feelings amount to anything, and certainly not mine, but I had the same thoughts about omitting PR except for abuse as corporeal punishment. For whatever reason, I have not been able to dismiss the thought that PR could have sexually abused JBR, and the hints of abuse in her own past makes it that much harder. Now, if I had to pick between JR and PR as the abuser, I would say JR - BUT, I have always wondered just how a man goes his entire life with no indication of predatory behavior...then just gets obsessed with his 6 year old? Not saying it's not possible, just that I've been waiting years for the JR sex abuse bombshell to come out, and nothing!
 
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