Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[Mama2JML]

I'd love to have all the info on that bat. If you are to believe the neighbors story about the scream, then later the sound of scraping metal, the bat seems to make a lot o sense. Wonder if there were prints on it or if it was wiped?


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The only physical evidence tied to the bat, AFAIK, is basement carpet fiber.


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[DeeDee249]

According to sources who new the Rs, Dr Beuf was a personal friend, not just their kids' pediatrician. They belonged to the same Country Club and Dr Beuf was said to be in awe of them. Just his comments about refusing to turn over the kids' ring danger bells for me. I know this will never come to trial, but if it had, ti would have been interesting to see how the two doctors (Beuf & Mayer) responded under oath. Then again, it is the DA who questions witnesses, and this DA was working for the defense. There was talk long ago about appointing a special prosecutor. The DA was in personal and professional relationships with the defense lawyers and should have stepped down from this case from day 1.

 

[887sMtreme]

This is what confuses me:

Snipped: " August 1996 --
another routine physical with a vaginal exam. The doctor said
everything checked out as normal.

...versus Dr. Beuf's notes for that exam in August which mention nothing about a genital exam, vaginal or otherwise, just all that stuff about JB being modest in public and not playing sex games.

Also, on the subject of whether or not the broken paintbrush was used to penetrate JB's vagina to cover up earlier digital abuse, I think the sharp, jagged edges of the paintbrush, if used in that way, would have left no room for confusion on that point. My guess is, as others have suggested, any cellulose (wood) found in JB's vagina got there on somebody's finger. That somebody either badly needed a manicure (shaggy nails and cuticles), or had perhaps recently had one (sharp tips).

This subject is starting to creep me out something awful. I think I'm going to drop it for a while and just read.

 

[andreww]

The only physical evidence tied to the bat, AFAIK, is basement carpet fiber.


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Hmmm. You'd think the bat would have had fingerprints all over it? Also odd that the only forensic evidence on it points to the area of the crime scene.


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[southernmimi]

Hmmm. You'd think the bat would have had fingerprints all over it? Also odd that the only forensic evidence on it points to the area of the crime scene.


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We know that not everyone in the Ramsey household has fingerprints. There were none on the flashlight found in the house.

 

[andreww]

We know that not everyone in the Ramsey household has fingerprints. There were none on the flashlight found in the house.

That is true, however I don't think we can read too much in to the lack of fingerprints. Those Maglite flashlights generally have a knurled finish that makes them easier to grip, also making it tough to leave a print. I've heard plenty of speculation that the flashlight was wiped down, and although that is a possibility, I have never seen anything conclusively stating that. All we know is that to prints were found insider or out.

Was it the murder weapon? In my opinion it probably wasn't, given the fact that it was left on the counter. I'm not sure that it would be substantial enough to do that sort of damage to JBRs skull either.

 

[southernmimi]

We just don't know, do we? I don't have a link stating the batteries inside didn't even have prints, but either way there should have been partial or smudged prints on some part of the flashlight, imo. Personally, I think the flashlight could've caused that kind of damage to six year old child if it was swung from high and with force. Lots that we don't know and will never know, but this is one I'd loved to see solved.

 

[887sMtreme]

I have a flashlight just like that. I'm sure several of us do. It is damn hard and heavy, like a decent-sized hatchet. (I make that comparison because I take both items camping and am familiar with their relative heft. When I bought mine, it had no batteries in it and was in one of those irritating bubble packages, as were the batteries. I was wearing gloves, since it was cold out, and left them on to protect my skin from getting sliced when I opened the packages and also because I was going to use the flashlight right right after to get something from the shed out back. Now that's a decent excuse. I wonder if the R's have a similar one. Why no prints on the flashlight or the batteries? Presumably they were asked, ideally in some sort of circuitous way that wouldn't tip them off. ("Was it a working flashlight the night of the murders? Had someone put batteries in it at any time in the previous month or so?" Something like that. Forgive me if that's too rookie a question.

 

[DeeDee249]

It's the wiping of the BATTERIES that ties this flashlight to both the Rs and the crime. NO intruder would wipe the batteries. The owner's prints would be expected to be on them. This is why I believe the flashlight was the bludgeon. The only way they could distance themselves from the flashlight was to remove all evidence it had belonged to them. They DID admit they had one "just like it" (their words).

 

[887sMtreme]

I'm sure the flashlight was wi[ed. It was out in plain sight where anyone might easily have handled it, so there being no prints on it is telling. But how do we know the batteries were wiped, I mean as opposed to their having been placed in the flashlight with gloves on for some possibly innocent reason (see my post above)? Just because they had no prints doesn't mean they were wiped. Were smudged fingerprints found on the batteries or something? Sorry, I can't find info on that. Not asking to be difficult, but to be better-informed.

 

[UKGuy]

It's the wiping of the BATTERIES that ties this flashlight to both the Rs and the crime. NO intruder would wipe the batteries. The owner's prints would be expected to be on them. This is why I believe the flashlight was the bludgeon. The only way they could distance themselves from the flashlight was to remove all evidence it had belonged to them. They DID admit they had one "just like it" (their words).

DeeDee249,
Did the flashlight play a role, it looks that way, was it used to whack JonBenet, maybe? I guess some might suggest a PDI where PR visits JonBenet in her bedroom, yet why would she whack JonBenet on the head?

.

 

[andreww]

All good thoughts but I'm still not sold. I've always seen this as a spontaneous crime, either accidental or in a fit of rage. I think most would agree. So why is the flashlight out? I would think that it was used as the Rs sneaked around the house. I feel it was most likely still in the drawer when the crime occurred.


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[887sMtreme]

Andrew, that's a good supposition, especially if one or both/all participants in the staging wore gloves, as appears to be the case. (Doesn't it?)

 

[DeeDee249]

All good thoughts but I'm still not sold. I've always seen this as a spontaneous crime, either accidental or in a fit of rage. I think most would agree. So why is the flashlight out? I would think that it was used as the Rs sneaked around the house. I feel it was most likely still in the drawer when the crime occurred.


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I agree about the spontaneous nature of the head bash- fit of rage or not. I disagree about whether the flashlight was still in the drawer when the crime occurred. If so, why was it then out on the counter? Police interviews with Patsy show them looking at a photo with her of a drawer in which Patsy said the flashlight was kept- and there was NO flashlight in there. I think we all realize that the flashlight in the photos on the counter WAS theirs, despite their claim that they had one "just like it, but this one is dirty". Why police never mentioned to them that the "dirt" was fingerprint dust is one of the many omissions and mishandling that Beckner claims he regrets.
In addition, a neighbor reported seeing "strange, moving lights" in the kitchen- a perfect description of someone walking around a darkened house with a flashlight. It is because the batteries were wiped that I feel the flashlight was also the bludgeon. A forensic specialist tested an identical MagLight against both a human skull and a styrofoam head. BOTH produced a nearly identical rectangular hole/depression as seen in JB's skull. The angle that the flashlight would have been brought down on her skull is also consistent with its use in striking her from behind and slightly to the side- and she was upright when struck. Being on the floor or bed, etc, would produce a different kind of fracture, as would being struck with a golf club or even that baseball bat that was found outdoors. The flashlight was tampered with- the bat was not. The flashlight was wiped, inside and out- the bat was not. The only golf clubs were in the 2 bags found just outside the winecellar, and Patsy's sister brought one of them (JR's) to him so police never took it into evidence -I don't know whether either golf bag or clubs were ever taken into evidence.

 

[ninaskids]

Just listened to the entire interview with Cyril Wecht and he said this about the autopsy. Her digital damage was chronic but possibly not over 72 hrs old. But def before the murder by days not hours. The damage with the paint brush was OVER the chronic damage and was done that night as staging!
Also on further examination with a particular light to see inside, the hymen was damaged and there was evidence of talc. He seemed to think we would "get it" when he said all that.
But I am not sure what he is saying.

Is he saying that Patsy herself in trying to prevent bladder infections or yeast infections cleaned her inside and used to talc to freshen her up? And that is what caused damage?

The garrote meant that someone was getting something out of it. He also noted that JB usually had a choker on in pageants something around her neck that was pretty. Was it because she had marks on her neck?
Patsy took her daughter to the dr a lot trying to determine why her child would have these infec. She should have taken her to a female gyno and had an internal exam done.

Then she could have nailed the creep to the wall, changed the locks and taken away his key so he couldn't just waltz in any time he wanted.

Also, JR wanted his golf clubs to be retrieved by his sister in law Pam Paugh. Was he afraid the police would keep his clubs so he couldn't go to
Atlanta and play golf? lol
No it is possible the bat was in the golf bag. However, I think it was prob the flashlight. Dr. Wecht mentioned that and so did Beckner. and it had no fingerprints.

Maybe there were two flashlights, the "dirty one" and it ended up in the golf bag.

 

[DeeDee249]

Just listened to the entire interview with Cyril Wecht and he said this about the autopsy. Her digital damage was chronic but possibly not over 72 hrs old. But def before the murder by days not hours. The damage with the paint brush was OVER the chronic damage and was done that night as staging!
Also on further examination with a particular light to see inside, the hymen was damaged and there was evidence of talc. He seemed to think we would "get it" when he said all that.
But I am not sure what he is saying.

Is he saying that Patsy herself in trying to prevent bladder infections or yeast infections cleaned her inside and used to talc to freshen her up? And that is what caused damage?

The garrote meant that someone was getting something out of it. He also noted that JB usually had a choker on in pageants something around her neck that was pretty. Was it because she had marks on her neck?
Patsy took her daughter to the dr a lot trying to determine why her child would have these infec. She should have taken her to a female gyno and had an internal exam done.

Then she could have nailed the creep to the wall, changed the locks and taken away his key so he couldn't just waltz in any time he wanted.

Also, JR wanted his golf clubs to be retrieved by his sister in law Pam Paugh. Was he afraid the police would keep his clubs so he couldn't go to
Atlanta and play golf? lol
No it is possible the bat was in the golf bag. However, I think it was prob the flashlight. Dr. Wecht mentioned that and so did Beckner. and it had no fingerprints.

Maybe there were two flashlights, the "dirty one" and it ended up in the golf bag.

First of all, let me repeat that I totally disagree with Wecht. That being said, there were not two flashlights- there was one- the one that was found on the counter and wiped. I do believe there could have been OTHER evidence that was snuck out of the house in the golf bag (that JR specifically asked Patsy's sister to get from the house). I do not believe the garrote (and it was not a true, functional garrote either) gave any sexual satisfaction to anyone. It was not applied for that reason. The TRUE reason for the garrote, IMO, was to provide a VISIBLE, OBVIOUS cause of death for a child who was already dying from a bash on the head and had evidence (bleeding) of a sexual assault. The horrific skull fracture was not even SEEN until the autopsy- it was a closed-scalp injury and no blood or wound was visible from the head bash. The result was they had a dying child on their hands - and if she'd been brought to an emergency room, the sexual abuse would have been discovered. The only way out was to say she'd been kidnapped -this put the sexual abuse on her kidnappers- and that she'd been strangled because the parents called police. Remember- although the parents KNEW about the head bash, you couldn't tell from looking at her that it happened. The garrote was immediately apparent. The blood was wiped from her pubic area and thighs and I believe the parents though that was the end of it. If you read Beckner's comments, you'd see that he said police believed the paintbrush was jabbed into her to mask any previous injury. The parents knew about the sexual abuse. That had to be covered up too.
An intruder has no interest in hiding the crime- if that were the case, the body would have been removed and either destroyed (like Etan Patz)or dumped somewhere (like Polly Klaas or Samantha Runion). In the case of many pedophile killers, leaving the body in a sexual pose is part of the thrill, as well as making it obvious that there had been a sexual assault.
Patsy knew why JB was having these infections. How many infections caused by bubble bath would a child have to have before her parent stops giving her bubble baths? A pediatrician seeing a little girl for repeated, frequent infections said to be caused by bubble baths should be extremely suspicious about an alternative cause. But JB's doctor was a personal friend of the parents, belonged to their country club- I suppose he thought it would be "messy" to explore another reason. Actually, I think BOTH parent and doctor knew the "bubble bath" wasn't the reason, and the REAL cause was the reason why the doctor stated he would never turn over the medical records willingly and would destroy them before giving them to police. Pretty strong comments from a doctor whose little patient was found sexually assaulted and murdered. You'd think he'd want to help..

 

[Tawny]

Chronic indicates ongoing, over time. Something that happens within 72 hours would probably be considered isolated/acute. JMO

 

[Landonsmom02]

Chronic indicates ongoing, over time. Something that happens within 72 hours would probably be considered isolated/acute. JMO

Just my :twocents: but I'm a nurse in Ortho and in my line of work we see a lot of chronic elements and normally in the medical field chronic is more than 3 months.

 

[Tawny]

Just my :twocents: but I'm a nurse in Ortho and in my line of work we see a lot of chronic elements and normally in the medical field chronic is more than 3 months.

Thanks for your insight (and your service as a nurse, y'all don't get paid enough IMO)! That's what I assume when I see "chronic". Something that has longevity. Like my chronic acid reflux.

 

[Landonsmom02]

Thanks for your insight (and your service as a nurse, y'all don't get paid enough IMO)! That's what I assume when I see "chronic". Something that has longevity. Like my chronic acid reflux.

No problem...and I concur!!!! That's why I get so frustrated when people try to say that the abuse was just that night. Obviously there was a change in JB before her death. (according to those close to the family) That poor baby was being abused and I think it was escalating. I don't think her murder was premeditated.