Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[OliviaG1996]

The marks on JBR's neck clearly lined up with a stungun mark. She was likely subdued with one. The tests revealed that it was likely a stungun discharge. No stungun was found in the home.

Which tests are you speaking of? Autopsy tests or the experiment on pigs? To my knowledge, no autopsy tests concluded anything about a stun gun being used or not. Many people have discounted the possibility of a stun gun because:

1. The prongs of the stun gun investigators such as Lou Smit believed may have been used on JBR did not match the marks found on her. Train tracks from the train room, however, did.

2. Stun guns make you gasp and scream out in pain. They do not make you fall unconscious without a sound to be made.

3. John Ramsey, when asked if exhumation was a possibility for him in order to determine whether or not a stun gun was used on JBR, said, "We had buried our child, she was at peace, she was safe. That was just an abhorrent thought to me,". Apparently, this idea was so abhorrent, finding out another clue towards determining who his daughter's killer was wasn't as important as keeping her grave intact for the moment.

 

[morf13]

The pig test. Also,as I recall, they marks did lineup. I think it was the ME who stated after hearing Lou Smit's info about stungun,it likely was a stungun

 

[morf13]

The pig test. Also,as I recall, they marks did lineup. I think it was the ME who stated after hearing Lou Smit's info about stungun,it likely was a stungun

1hr 28 min-1hr33 minutes of the video above, good stungun discussion,and an expert backs up as does the pig tests and measurements of marks.

 

[andreww]

Here we go again, somebody spewing the same crap, the same lies, and the same Ramsey produced videos that have been discussed a thousand times.

Morf, are you aware that the head of the company that produced that stun gun said without doubt that those were not stun gun marks? Are you aware that marks left on a dead animal are different than those left on a living being because the person will move as the mark is made? Are you aware that Burke Ramsey owned those same boots that left the print? And by the way, the marks from the stun gun didn't line up. The closest model Smit could find was still several millimetres off.

 

[morf13]

Here we go again, somebody spewing the same crap, the same lies, and the same Ramsey produced videos that have been discussed a thousand times.

Morf, are you aware that the head of the company that produced that stun gun said without doubt that those were not stun gun marks? Are you aware that marks left on a dead animal are different than those left on a living being because the person will move as the mark is made? Are you aware that Burke Ramsey owned those same boots that left the print? And by the way, the marks from the stun gun didn't line up. The closest model Smit could find was still several millimetres off.

Not claiming to be an expert in this case, and made no such claim. I am going by what Smit & co said in the video about it matching perfectly. What do you mean by "Ramsey produced Videos"? Ramseys didn't hire Smit, the DA did...and he saw the possibility of an outsider.

This case doesn't make a lot of sense:

1) It is NOT typical for Parents to kill their children, in such a horrible, terribly way as this. While some Parents kill their kids, it's usually spur of the moment, hits, rage moments,etc. This was a well thought out, disgusting, brutal,slow,torture filled way to kill this child-again, not saying Parents are never capable of this, but it's not the norm. I could see a case where a parent loses it strikes a child, and they hit their head and die,etc. Am I correct in my recollection that the ME thought the blow to the head was the last trauma?

2)If a stranger killed her, why write the misleading letter?There would be no need to misdirect cops,since they have no connection to the Family.They could have just left.

3)Really odd coincidences(or not coincidences)that McReynold's Daughter had been kidnapped 22 years before to the day, and that his Wife wrote a play about a girl who gets tortured and murdered in a basement

4)The ransom note asks for $118k, the same amount of John's bonus, that seems like a really big coincidence. I could see why people would suspect the Parents based on this bonus amount, but perhaps somebody else that knew about this bonus could be the perp?

5)Another coincidence, a guy kills himself the day of that police press conference...worth looking into

6)If you are the Ramseys and you killed your Daughter in the middle of the night and want to make it look like a kidnapping, why not sneak out in the middle of the night and hide her body instead of keeping it in the house where you know it will be found, and look less like a kidnapping or intruder?

7)So much made of writing, and after researching the Zodiac killer case for a decade, I know that writing simply put, is NOT science. DNA is! The DNA in this case, simply does not fit the Family, for better or worse.

To flat out discount the intruder theory is not responsible in my opinion. To not entertain the idea is irresponsible. The case for better or worse, was incorrectly handled from the start. The Family should have been ordered out of the house to preserve the crime scene. Instead, they were allowed to stay in and contaminate the scene, walk around, disturb the body,etc. The police discounted the possibility that somebody could have come in thru the grate near basement window because it was too small. HOW? Smit came thru it in the video. John Ramsey had locked himself out previously, and supposedly come thru there.

All kinds of clues, pointing in multiple directions, and bad police work are not a good combination

 

[andreww]

Not claiming to be an expert in this case, and made no such claim. I am going by what Smit & co said in the video about it matching perfectly. What do you mean by "Ramsey produced Videos"? Ramseys didn't hire Smit, the DA did...and he saw the possibility of an outsider.

Smit did work for team Ramsey after he left his post with Boulder PD. Team Ramsey willingly cooperated with anybody who was willing to tell the story from a pro-Ramsey viewpoint. The understood the media. Networks were hungry for content. The Ramsey's would provide that content so long as it was told from their point of view. The Ramseys guaranteed ratings so the networks had no problem doing that.

1) It is NOT typical for Parents to kill their children, in such a horrible, terribly way as this. While some Parents kill their kids, it's usually spur of the moment, hits, rage moments,etc. This was a well thought out, disgusting, brutal,slow,torture filled way to kill this child-again, not saying Parents are never capable of this, but it's not the norm. I could see a case where a parent loses it strikes a child, and they hit their head and die,etc. Am I correct in my recollection that the ME thought the blow to the head was the last trauma?

No, It is generally agreed by the experts that the head blow came first. Everything else was simply staging to point at an intruder.

2)If a stranger killed her, why write the misleading letter?There would be no need to misdirect cops,since they have no connection to the Family.They could have just left.

You kind of answered that yourself. The parents wrote that note as a way of getting the police involved without immediately being seen as suspects. Hello 911, we woke up and found our 5 year old daughter murdered! They'd have been in jail in a minute.

2)3)Really odd coincidences(or not coincidences)that McReynold's Daughter had been kidnapped 22 years before to the day, and that his Wife wrote a play about a girl who gets tortured and murdered in a basement

McReynolds was investigated thoroughly and cleared despite how hard the Ramseys tried to point evidence at him. The Santa Bear for example that nobody had ever seen before and the portion of the Christmas card found in JBRs waste basket. There was absolutely no evidence that pointed to McReynolds. None.

2)3)4)The ransom note asks for $118k, the same amount of John's bonus, that seems like a really big coincidence. I could see why people would suspect the Parents based on this bonus amount, but perhaps somebody else that knew about this bonus could be the perp?

Who knows why that amount was used. Possibly because john knew he could get his hands on that much cash very easily. Maybe the 118 referred to something else, who knows. One thing we know for sure is it was a laughable ransom amount, and the FBI knew it immediately.

2)3)4)5)Another coincidence, a guy kills himself the day of that police press conference...worth looking into

Its only a coincidence because team Ramsey wanted you to believe it was. People kill themselves all the time. The Ramseys had people digging for stuff like this for the sole purpose of chewing up valuable time and assets of an already understaffed BPD.

6)If you are the Ramseys and you killed your Daughter in the middle of the night and want to make it look like a kidnapping, why not sneak out in the middle of the night and hide her body instead of keeping it in the house where you know it will be found, and look less like a kidnapping or intruder?

Simple answer to that is that it would have been too risky. All it would have taken is one person to have noticed their vehicle. Wherever the dumped her, they would have to worry about tire track, footprints, DNA. Findany of this things anywhere near the body and the Ramseys are dead.

7)So much made of writing, and after researching the Zodiac killer case for a decade, I know that writing simply put, is NOT science. DNA is! The DNA in this case, simply does not fit the Family, for better or worse.

To flat out discount the intruder theory is not responsible in my opinion. To not entertain the idea is irresponsible. The case for better or worse, was incorrectly handled from the start. The Family should have been ordered out of the house to preserve the crime scene. Instead, they were allowed to stay in and contaminate the scene, walk around, disturb the body,etc. The police discounted the possibility that somebody could have come in thru the grate near basement window because it was too small. HOW? Smit came thru it in the video. John Ramsey had locked himself out previously, and supposedly come thru there.

There are different types of DNA. Things like blood, hair, and semen are very convincing pieces of evidence when left at a crime scene. The type of DNA that we are talking about in the Ramsey case is for the most part microscopic. This type of DNA is not so convincing because it is too easily transferred, meaning that it doesn't even take contact to transfer it. If you shake hands with someone, you could have this type of DNA on you, and if you commit a crime that DNA could be at the crime scene. The DNA could have been on her clothes already, or the DNA could have transferred from whatever was used to wipe her down. The shame is that so much has been made of this inexact science, that real hard evidence has been ignored.

And don't think that nobody ever didn't consider the possibility of an intruder. Simply put there is absolutely no evidence of an intruder. In fact that window that Smit claims the intruder left through was actually locked. Months later John came up with the revelation that he had come down that morning and found it open but decided to lock it without even mentioning to the officer. Yeh right :thinking:

 

[morf13]

Can we agree on the following things?

1) Smit was brought in by the DA, and after finding info that to him made it very possible an intruder attacked, then joined 'team Ramsey'

2)Hair found on JBR's panties & matter found under her fingernails does NOT match anybody in the Ramsey Family

It's obvious that you support the theory that the Ramseys did it, but, which one in your opinion beat their 6 year old's head in, wrapped a tight rope around her neck,and tortured and abused her? Additionally, are you a Parent, because if you are, you would know how very difficult it is to fathom a Parent doing that to their helpless little girl. As a Father of a young Daughter, I would die to protect her, and would never do anything to hurt her,and could not even conceive of doing something like that. I know it happens, I know that some Parents do stuff like that, but it's rare to go to that extreme.

 

[BOESP]

Morf, have you read Detective Steve Thomas's book and Chief James Kolar's book concerning JonBenet's death?

Have you read the Redditt transcripts concerning this case from two people who were involved in investigating it? A quick search on this board will lead you to those transcripts.

Did you know Smit made a statement on television saying that a "blue line" between the so-called stun gun marks on JonBenet indicated an electrical charge such as those delivered by a stun gun?

Have you read "Death of Innocence" by John and Patsy Ramsey? It is full of inconsistencies.

Have you read the deposition transcripts at acandyrose.com or Forums For Justice?

Smit was originally hired by the DA's office to find holes in the Ramsey(s)-Did-It theory. He changed his mind about their guilt after praying with them (or so he said).

Patsy could not be excluded as the writer of the note.

Not sure about your lack of skepticism toward the Ramseys since I know from formerly being a member at your Zodiac board that you require much more stringent standards than what you seem to exhibit here on JonBenet's board. I find that unusual (if you are the same "Morf.")

And welcome.

 

[andreww]

Can we agree on the following things?

1) Smit was brought in by the DA, and after finding info that to him made it very possible an intruder attacked, then joined 'team Ramsey'

2)Hair found on JBR's panties & matter found under her fingernails does NOT match anybody in the Ramsey Family

It's obvious that you support the theory that the Ramseys did it, but, which one in your opinion beat their 6 year old's head in, wrapped a tight rope around her neck,and tortured and abused her? Additionally, are you a Parent, because if you are, you would know how very difficult it is to fathom a Parent doing that to their helpless little girl. As a Father of a young Daughter, I would die to protect her, and would never do anything to hurt her,and could not even conceive of doing something like that. I know it happens, I know that some Parents do stuff like that, but it's rare to go to that extreme.

Let me put it bluntly, you simply aren't cut out to be an investigator. Whenever you start letting what you think people are or aren't capable of bases on your own environment, you've lost the battle. People are capable of terrible things, and the people that do them are often normal people like you and I.


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[SapphireSteel]

ok I thought everyone now knows, suspects, or accepts, that the parents did it.

Apparently not...!

The Power of PR.

If you apply logic to the Ramsey tale there is only one possible conclusion I'm afraid.

The same old story, we read it here daily it seems.

Child Abuse gone too far leading to death and coverup by "carers".

 

[eileenhawkeye]

The Ramsey's sued court tv and one of the conditions of the settlement was they had to air multiple pro-Ramsey documentaries.

 

[morf13]

Morf, have you read Detective Steve Thomas's book and Chief James Kolar's book concerning JonBenet's death?

Have you read the Redditt transcripts concerning this case from two people who were involved in investigating it? A quick search on this board will lead you to those transcripts.

Did you know Smit made a statement on television saying that a "blue line" between the so-called stun gun marks on JonBenet indicated an electrical charge such as those delivered by a stun gun?

Have you read "Death of Innocence" by John and Patsy Ramsey? It is full of inconsistencies.

Have you read the deposition transcripts at acandyrose.com or Forums For Justice?

Smit was originally hired by the DA's office to find holes in the Ramsey(s)-Did-It theory. He changed his mind about their guilt after praying with them (or so he said).

Patsy could not be excluded as the writer of the note.

Not sure about your lack of skepticism toward the Ramseys since I know from formerly being a member at your Zodiac board that you require much more stringent standards than what you seem to exhibit here on JonBenet's board. I find that unusual (if you are the same "Morf.")

And welcome.

@Boesp-I have a Zodiac Killer website, so I likely am the only 'Morf' that has one. First off, as I said in a post earlier in this thread, I don't claim to be an expert on the JBR case,and I admittedly have a general knowledge of the basics of the case. I know there are a lot of great People here that have researched the case,have read the files, and books etc.

With that out of the way, I am speaking to the possibility of an outsider being responsible. When this case first happened, I remember thinking "there's no way some intruder came in to this Family's home and killed her, and snuck out..it had to be the Parents". But, from what I understand, (please correct me if I am wrong), the police didn't check to see if a person could fit under the grate through the window. But then I see a man do it on the documentary with my own eyes,and I recall somebody saying that John Ramsey supposedly crawled through there after getting locked out. If Police didn't look at that as a possibility, is it not irresponsible?

Again, going back to the DNA on JBR's Panties, and the matter under JBR's nails, does any of it fit the Ramsey Family? No, it does not. But it seems as if some people want to just throw out that stuff and not consider the possibility that the Parents may not be guilty.

I have seen this by police in my Zodiac Killer research,specifically in the Cheri Jo Bates murder, there are clues that connect the Zodiac to her case, but police refused to consider the connection due to them having their own favorite suspect, DESPITE their Suspect's DNA not matching a hair found in Cheri's hand,which was most likely from her attacker.

I simply want to see both sides explored in any case, including this one. So my question, from anybody that has really researched the case, did the police look at the intruder possibility, or write it off immediately?

The bottom line here is, the police flat out messed this case up. Allowing the Family to remain in the house, contaminating the crime scene, interfering with evidence,etc,is just flat out bad police work. If Everybody here doesn't agree on that point, then I have to scratch my head

 

[morf13]

Let me put it bluntly, you simply aren't cut out to be an investigator. Whenever you start letting what you think people are or aren't capable of bases on your own environment, you've lost the battle. People are capable of terrible things, and the people that do them are often normal people like you and I.


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I'd have to disagree with you,I have studied several cases extensively(Zodiac, Cheri Jo Bates, Lindy Sue Biechler, Laura Lynn Miller,Dana Bailey,and others)I know perfectly well what People are capable of. As I clearly pointed out, I know there are monsters out there, some of which do awful things to their kids,but as I also pointed out, the overwhelming amount of Parents are protective,loving Parents, who would never harm their Child, let alone, something as horrendous as this. If one of JBR's Parents did this, they deserve a special spot in hell, if they didn't, whoever did it does. Researching serial killers allows you to see how evil some people can be. I just want to see the intruder theory in this case fully ruled out and not written off,and I hate to see mistakes made and a case mucked up like this

 

[UKGuy]

Can we agree on the following things?

1) Smit was brought in by the DA, and after finding info that to him made it very possible an intruder attacked, then joined 'team Ramsey'

2)Hair found on JBR's panties & matter found under her fingernails does NOT match anybody in the Ramsey Family

It's obvious that you support the theory that the Ramseys did it, but, which one in your opinion beat their 6 year old's head in, wrapped a tight rope around her neck,and tortured and abused her? Additionally, are you a Parent, because if you are, you would know how very difficult it is to fathom a Parent doing that to their helpless little girl. As a Father of a young Daughter, I would die to protect her, and would never do anything to hurt her,and could not even conceive of doing something like that. I know it happens, I know that some Parents do stuff like that, but it's rare to go to that extreme.

morf13,

1. Correct.

2. NOT matching any Ramsey is NOT the same as Unmatched forensic evidence is that of an Intruder , i.e. invalid inference from an absence of evidence! Even MATCHING forensic evidence would require an alibi interview, etc. There are multiple foreign DNA samples to be found on JonBenet's person, and NO intruder in sight!

& matter found under her fingernails does NOT match anybody in the Ramsey Family

So what, that might mean she had dirty nails to the White's party, picked up the detritus on route back from the White's, in the White's toilet, whilst playing at the White's, again NOT matching means nothing, since YOU do not know the identity of the owner of all the foreign forensic samples on JonBenet.

but it's rare to go to that extreme.

This was one of those rare occassions, a Christmas Day homicide no less. Its all been staged for your delectation, so can expand your moral outrage and seek a nasty intruder, sadly the case is now a cold-case, but many, after the release of the GJ True Bills, reckon the case was solved once we found out both parents faced Accessory to a Crime charges.

Who might they be assisting, was it your mythical intruder, answers on a postcard to Alex Hunter Colorado USA.

.

 

[morf13]

Responses to UKGUY-

"Who might they be assisting, was it your mythical intruder"

This is exactly what I mean, your mind is made up, and you are locked in with your belief, if the same can be said of the investigators in JBR's case, that's a problem.

"So what, that might mean she had dirty nails to the White's party"

Does that mean we should just ignore it? Really? What if it was from the perp?

 

[UKGuy]

Responses to UKGUY-

"Who might they be assisting, was it your mythical intruder"

This is exactly what I mean, your mind is made up, and you are locked in with your belief, if the same can be said of the investigators in JBR's case, that's a problem.

"So what, that might mean she had dirty nails to the White's party"

And what if it's not?

morf13,

This is exactly what I mean, your mind is made up, and you are locked in with your belief, if the same can be said of the investigators in JBR's case, that's a problem.

Like the GJ I simply follow the evidence and it leads directly to the Ramseys.

And what if it's not?

Find the owner and check for an alibi, its that simple. Like I say many on websleuths think the case has already been solved!

.

 

[morf13]

morf13,

Like the GJ I simply follow the evidence and it leads directly to the Ramseys.


Find the owner and check for an alibi, its that simple. Like I say many on websleuths think the case has already been solved!

.

Exactly, find the source and check alibi. They never did it. Doesn't anybody want to see that done?

 

[BOESP]

@Boesp-I have a Zodiac Killer website, so I likely am the only 'Morf' that has one. First off, as I said in a post earlier in this thread, I don't claim to be an expert on the JBR case,and I admittedly have a general knowledge of the basics of the case. I know there are a lot of great People here that have researched the case,have read the files, and books etc.

With that out of the way, I am speaking to the possibility of an outsider being responsible. When this case first happened, I remember thinking "there's no way some intruder came in to this Family's home and killed her, and snuck out..it had to be the Parents". But, from what I understand, (please correct me if I am wrong), the police didn't check to see if a person could fit under the grate through the window. But then I see a man do it on the documentary with my own eyes,and I recall somebody saying that John Ramsey supposedly crawled through there after getting locked out. If Police didn't look at that as a possibility, is it not irresponsible?

Again, going back to the DNA on JBR's Panties, and the matter under JBR's nails, does any of it fit the Ramsey Family? No, it does not. But it seems as if some people want to just throw out that stuff and not consider the possibility that the Parents may not be guilty.

I have seen this by police in my Zodiac Killer research,specifically in the Cheri Jo Bates murder, there are clues that connect the Zodiac to her case, but police refused to consider the connection due to them having their own favorite suspect, DESPITE their Suspect's DNA not matching a hair found in Cheri's hand,which was most likely from her attacker.

I simply want to see both sides explored in any case, including this one. So my question, from anybody that has really researched the case, did the police look at the intruder possibility, or write it off immediately?

The bottom line here is, the police flat out messed this case up. Allowing the Family to remain in the house, contaminating the crime scene, interfering with evidence,etc,is just flat out bad police work. If Everybody here doesn't agree on that point, then I have to scratch my head

Most, and probably all, of the points you mention above already have been addressed on this board so there's really no need to repeat the same responses over and over again.

I guess we are at a draw here, Morf, because I'm scratching my head over what you've posted.

One more thing: Smit and several other pro-Ramsey folks appeared before a Grand Jury yet the GJ still handed down a true bill stating there was probable cause to indict both John and Patsy Ramsey. The DA, Alex Hunter, failed to indict (his prerogative), however, he failed to follow the requirements of making a signed statement in court as required by law in Colorado that he would not prosecute (if I correctly understood the code - this point also has been addressed on this board). Then Hunter used very clever language to make public statements that, imo, insinuated that the Grand Jury did not hand down a true bill asking for an indictment.

LE was told to treat the Ramseys as victims, not suspects, on the very day LE was called to the Ramsey home about a *kidnapping.* I truly suggest you read Steve Thomas's book if you want to know about the handicaps and obstacles put before the investigation team.

Humans make lots of mistakes. No one is infallible, especially when one hand is tied behind their backs from the git-go.

 

[morf13]

Well,I think one thing we can all agree on here is, a beautiful little child was killed in a brutal & horrible way, and deserves justice, and her killer(s)deserve to rot in hell

 

[OliviaG1996]

Well,I think one thing we can all agree on here is, a beautiful little child was killed in a brutal & horrible way, and deserves justice, and her killer(s)deserve to rot in hell

I personally believe her death was an accident and that everyone involved (the Ramseys) felt terribly about it. The reason her death looks so horrifying is because it was staged to look as though whoever did it was evil. In my opinion, none of the Ramseys are evil.