Who will get Zahra's remains?

[tlcya]

I personally think AB, ED, and KB should all come to a common ground on this matter and bury her in a place they can all agree on. I just cant imagine Zahra being happy about any kind of family fued over her final resting place. I would hope that 3 adults would take into consideration where Zahra would want to be and place her there. It saddens me to even think about there being any discord over this subject. I hope they all put thier love for Zahra ahead of any hard feelings and put her in a place she had special happy times. JMHO

ITA with this. Unfortunately, thus far, the emnity that apparently exists or existed between ED and KB has precluded that. I hope that that can change, but will not be holding my breath.

 

[dar107]

It seems to me an awfully long time that Zahra's remains are being held. Does anyone know of other cases where the remains were held for so long. It bothers me so much that she has not been able to be properly laid to rest. Would testing take this long, or would they continue to hold the remains after testing because they are waiting to see if AB will be charged?

 

[Allusonz]

i think that once they determine what the charges are, you will then see this resolved

i have a funky feeling it may be to error on the side of caution with respect to any defense and i know in my heart this LE is taking good care of here and she is with many angels up there i simply have to believe that

 

[Dr. Know?]

It seems to me an awfully long time that Zahra's remains are being held. Does anyone know of other cases where the remains were held for so long. It bothers me so much that she has not been able to be properly laid to rest. Would testing take this long, or would they continue to hold the remains after testing because they are waiting to see if AB will be charged?

I'd hope they would take their time here. Zahra was not all in one location and she deserves the truth to what happened to her or sadly, close to it. Test from many sites have to be medically proven so yeah... I think it's a long time, but also have seen cases that just frustrate you that you want an
answer now. Frustating to say the least. I think the case is getting more complicated with EB's past but don't follow this everyday anymore. Busy darn it.

JMO xoxoox

 

[Mountain_Kat]

It also bares consideration that LE might not have all of Z's remains.

(Sorry, guys. But it is a possibility.)

 

[Flakes]

Hi, I have been out at an Australia Day party this afternoon and evening and just returned. A great day of celebrating with good friends. Extra thoughts for Zahra.

I posted this in another thread, but realised it was off-topic. WhyaDuck kindly pointed to this thread, so I'm reposting here. Firstly, and to avoid any misunderstandings, I want to convey a couple of things:
1) I have no idea about the absolutes of legalities relating to: a) the Family Court of Australia's orders relating to Zahra, or b) the details of her Australian passport and visa to the USA.
2) I am aiming to explain how a) the Australian system for Family Law, and b) Passports/visas to the USA operate, from my personal experience. It is strict, they do play by the book. The terminology and definitions of these terms is quite different to those used in the USA (eg. no use of the word "custody" exists in Australian Family Law).
3) I will bold my questions. I would be very welcoming of any confirmation of answers (with sources) in response to these. I realise through the Freedom of Information Act we might be able to obtain copies of Zahra's Family Court Orders, however without these anything would not be 100% accurate as Family Law is complex and easily misunderstood. I would be highly skeptical of most reporting in the press on this issue. I just Googled to see if such records were currently available (in a quick search) and came up with links to a TV interview by a certain woman, NG. OH MY! The highly emotive, judgemental and ill-informed attitude regarding the Australian legal background and the attitude to Zahra's biological mum was heartbreaking for me to watch. Quite frankly I'm sitting here in shock and disgust.
4) I do not have any personal preference regarding who should be responsible for Zahra's remains for burial. I do hope she is returned to Australia, but whether that is by her biological mother, ED, or by her grand-mother is of no consequence to me. The existing orders of the Family Court/and or acting Parenting Plan, and potential future determinations by the Family Court may determine who is responsible if AB is charged and jailed for Zahra's murder/dismemberment after death/disposal.

So here goes!

I still think there's likely to be a battle over Zahra's remains. I personally believe she will be turned over to ED as AB had allegedly taken her illegally from Aus.

I would really need more information on the Australian-based Family Court's orders regarding Zahra, and the issuing of her Australian passport and VISA to the US before I would have any opinion on either of those points.

ED had, we are told in the media, surrendered "custody" of Zahra to AB when she was a baby, and while ED was suffering post-natal depression. Do we know if this was officially heard in the Family Court? Or were there private arrangements made through lawyers, or other arrangements made? I am not certain if this was done through legal means or not. The Family Court in Australia is the body with ultimate jurisdiction in this regard. I would welcome any confirmation of details on this.

I had a number of experiences in the Family Court around the late 1990s in the state of Victoria. From state-to-state I understand there are no differences in Family Law in Australia. At that time there was no such thing as "custody", instead they had a term "responsibility for day-to-day parenting". This did not give one parent complete power over the decision-making issues relating to the child, simply those relating to day-to-day care. Big issues such as "which school?" etc, had to be agreed upon by both parents. It is quite different to law in the USA, so you need to understand the word "custody" has no legal meaning in this case.

In Australia during that period, and until this day, there is little interest in the rights of the parents - the concern is for the children. The laws are driven by the view that a child has the right to know each of their parents. Parents have no rights to see their children ... it is the other way around! Irrespective of the circumstances, such as a parent being in jail, being an unsound parent, an abusive parent, etc, provision is still made for the child to know that parent - arrangements are made for such situations to have chaperones to accompany the children and ensure their safety at all times. This also occurs for interstate/overseas visits to parents.

If a person wishes to request access to their children, then all that's required is a visit to the Family Court. Legal Aid is available for those who do not have the money to pay for a private lawyer (it is means tested). Since the law upholds the right of the child to know their parents, such a case would support ED gaining access to her daughter. This is unless there was a previous order where she gave away all rights. Even in that case the court may reverse it if: 1) a psychologist's review with the child indicated that they want to know that other parent; or 2) on the basis of interest by the parent (which would be seen to benefit the child as it would get to know that parent).

Do we know if ED went to the Family Court of Australia requesting access to Zahra? If she failed to do so, then she did not take the logical, legal, appropriate and readily accessible action to rekindle the relationship. There are no obstacles if going through the Family Court. Australia's Freedom of Information Act ensures that people have access to information, so ED should have been able to locate Zahra at any time (unless there were Family Court Orders that prevented this!). The only other scenario is if the child is over 12 and refuses to continue the relationship with the parent, the Family Court will support this request ... but this is clearly irrelevant in the case of Zahra and ED.

With regards to the passport and VISA. You cannot leave Australia and gain entry to the USA without the correct and valid passport and VISA. These need to be arranged prior to leaving Australia. The passport can take months from application, to approval, and finally the supply (even if you pay the surcharge to gain priority passport release it can take weeks).

If a parent does not have the signature of the second biological parent/legal guardian on the application form for the child's passport, then it is necessary to fill in a second comprehensive form to explain the legal reason for the single parent's application. All signatures and witness signatures are investigated by the Passport office (witnesses are phoned to verify that they witnessed the second parent signing the form). It is REALLY strict.

I doubt Zahra would have already had a passport prior to her trip to the USA. Also children's passports are quite deliberately short duration. Is anyone aware if Zahra had any previous overseas holidays?

So, hopefully that explains: 1) why I'm not sure that ED would have any rights to Zahra's remains ... it's highly likely she would be returned to her grandmother's care for burial as this is the person who cared for her in Australia; and 2) I have serious doubts about there being anything illegal regarding her being taken from Australia to the USA.

Please carefully consider my comments regarding Family Law Courts and Legal Aid in Australia. It does not cost anything to go to court (for any type of case) if you are determined through "means testing" to be financially struggling or of low income. You are appointed a solicitor and barrister free of charge (potentially worth tens of thousands of $). The medical system is free. The police free. The education system free. There would have been cross-referencing between these various agencies/bodies regarding Zahra for all her life.

 

[FaerieB]

Boy oh boy...it's been a long time since this was all discussed, but I'll try my best. Most of what I say is :cow: and a lot of it should be prefaced with IIRC. A lot of our Australian members researched this extensively, and I am basing most of what I say on their research. I am searching for their posts, but many of them were before we had a forum, so it's proving challenging. It was much easier to find ED's words and use them, so that's what I've done.

According to ED, she was searching for Zahra. She tried going through the courts to find AB and he kept moving/changing numbers/etc. Please read "Biomum's" post dated December 8th, 5:58PM at http://www.thehinkymeter.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=957

IIRC, we were told that in order to obtain a passport for Zahra, AB would require ED's signature. Apparently the passport/visa situation is being investigated in Aus as well as in the States.

Catawba County Sheriff's Capt. Mark Shook told the Observer that immigration authorities contacted the jail hours after Adam Baker was released and informed them Baker was in the country illegally and should be detained.

Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/20...ly-stepmother-says-illness.html#ixzz1C9fuSoEg

I am accutely aware that there are two sides to every story, and the truth is often somewhere in the middle. We only have ED's side of things, which, for the most is being bolstered by reports through MSM.

Quite frankly, I would be extremely surprised if there's not a battle IF AB and/or family care to fight for her.

 

[Carolina Girl]

I have to agree with a couple of things. I do not think they have found all of Zahra, but enough to identify her as stated at the time, IIRC.
I also agree that Zahra was brought to this country illegally.
EB checkered past is not the only one they are having to deal with here.

 

[dar107]

I'd hope they would take their time here. Zahra was not all in one location and she deserves the truth to what happened to her or sadly, close to it. Test from many sites have to be medically proven so yeah... I think it's a long time, but also have seen cases that just frustrate you that you want an
answer now. Frustating to say the least. I think the case is getting more complicated with EB's past but don't follow this everyday anymore. Busy darn it.

JMO xoxoox

It also bares consideration that LE might not have all of Z's remains.
(Sorry, guys. But it is a possibility.)

Yes it is so frustrating! When I start to feel hopeless I come on here and draw faith from WS's great posters.

BBM This breaks my heart so badly, and I do not believe that all of her has been found. It must complicate the forensics extremely, having to work without a whole body. I know this little angel is up in Heaven, I know patience is a virtue and in the end justice will be served.

 

[Allusonz]

i am going to have to hope, and although not probable, that for Zahra's sake that the biomom and grandmother or AB if that does indeed happen to be the case would unite on at least this one point

it is not about any of them, this is about Zahra resting peacefully where all the family can find solice

 

[Flakes]

Boy oh boy...it's been a long time since this was all discussed, but I'll try my best. Most of what I say is :cow: and a lot of it should be prefaced with IIRC. A lot of our Australian members researched this extensively, and I am basing most of what I say on their research. I am searching for their posts, but many of them were before we had a forum, so it's proving challenging. It was much easier to find ED's words and use them, so that's what I've done.

According to ED, she was searching for Zahra. She tried going through the courts to find AB and he kept moving/changing numbers/etc. Please read "Biomum's" post dated December 8th, 5:58PM at http://www.thehinkymeter.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=957

IIRC, we were told that in order to obtain a passport for Zahra, AB would require ED's signature. Apparently the passport/visa situation is being investigated in Aus as well as in the States.

I am accutely aware that there are two sides to every story, and the truth is often somewhere in the middle. We only have ED's side of things, which, for the most is being bolstered by reports through MSM.

Quite frankly, I would be extremely surprised if there's not a battle IF AB and/or family care to fight for her.

Thanks FaerieB for the links to ED's comments on the Hinkymeter. I have read these and can see she did make an attempt many years after the estrangement, to have Family Court orders put in place. She claims it took her years to pay off the costs. This indicates she may have had access to Legal Aid, or took out a personal loan to pay the lawyers. If entitled to Legal Aid, her financial situation would have been determined by way of a Means Test as to how much aid she'd receive as a government subsidy, and how much she would have been expected to pay back. Speculation is that she was on a low income, therefore it can be assumed she would have received subsidies.

If the terms of the Court Order were broken, then ED needed to take the case back before the Family Court - that is the whole idea of getting orders - they stipulate protocol and if this is broken you are protected by the law (police assistance) and the Courts. It would be possible to get further Legal Aid for this if you were eligible. Or you would engage your own solicitor and barrister.

I can guarantee that if ED took the case back before the Family Court that they would have tracked down AB and read him the riot act.

I know from personal experience that the Family Court will disclose the location of the other parent who is involved with access to your children. Years ago I was involved in a situation where the father of a child obtained his ex-wife's location through the Family Court, using the Freedom of Information Act. He went to that house and brutally bashed and murdered her (shot 6 times in the chest) in front of the children. In subsequent years the dead ex-wife's parents were required to take the children to visit him in jail, as "they had a right to know their biological father" (see my earlier post about the Family Law). It is even more complicated – only one of the children was his, but the other still was expected to visit!!!

The Family Court would have had access to Zahra's location through a number of sources - Medicare, Education system, etc. Such information would not have been made available to ED (she claims it was not), as privacy laws protect people from such disclosure. However, the Family Court would have full access to this information.

It is unclear what the orders were (ED's right to choose not to disclose these), and it is also very unclear what the legal situation was prior to the Family Court case (over years of non-contact).

It sounds like ED did take advantage of the acting Court Orders for a period of time and saw Zahra, which is lovely to hear. When AB then moved and ED was unable to locate him through his mother, this needed to be handled through the courts. I understand ED did not take the case back to Family Court.

Regarding Passport. I have read that ED is in discussion with the Federal Police over their enquiry to determine the legality of Zahra leaving Australia. As I have stated previously, AB would have had to apply for an Australian passport for a child either: 1) with ED's signature, or 2) without ED's signature – in which case he would have had to provide a second form called "Form B-9 Child without full parental consent". The Declaration signed at the base of the form states: "that it is a criminal offence under the Australian Passports Act 2005 to make false or misleading statements. (There are penalties of up to 10 years’ imprisonment or a fine of $110 000 or both)".

If he was legally issued with a passport for Zahra, then obtained a visa, I am not sure how her travel can have been seen as 'illegal'. What I do accept as illegal, however, is the expiry of the visa and their failure to return to Australia ... and we presume this is an issue that the US govt will be looking into with regard to AB in time. If AB mislead authorities in the application for passport for Zahra then he will be likely to face charges.

BTW I am an Australian, I have been through 4 cases in the Family Court in Australia, and I have applied for 2 passports for my daughter. Her other parent is estranged so I went through the process of gaining that parent's permission through a complicated network of contacts (it took months). I am familiar with the Form B-9 as for some time it appeared I would need to complete this. The visa to the USA is simple (online).

 

[Flakes]

It also bares consideration that LE might not have all of Z's remains.

(Sorry, guys. But it is a possibility.)

Sadly I assume that to be correct

 

[tlcya]

Based on the way LE answered and didn't during press conferences regarding remains and declaring the end of searching, it can be assumed that is so. They basically confirmed it without speaking to it by declaring that "they had found enough remains" to declare Zahra dead and end the searching. To me that says they are incomplete. The chance remains that they have found more evidence/remains during the supposed "secret searches" but I cannot imagine that information not leaking out if that were the case.

 

[Flakes]

Based on the way LE answered and didn't during press conferences regarding remains and declaring the end of searching, it can be assumed that is so. They basically confirmed it without speaking to it by declaring that "they had found enough remains" to declare Zahra dead and end the searching. To me that says they are incomplete. The chance remains that they have found more evidence/remains during the supposed "secret searches" but I cannot imagine that information not leaking out if that were the case.

What I've found telling is they revealed the discovery of the leg bone, but have not disclosed what remains were found in the second location.

 

[tlcya]

What I've found telling is they revealed the discovery of the leg bone, but have not disclosed what remains were found in the second location.

I do hope what remains they have are eventually released to be buried in Australia. That is where that little gal belongs.

 

[Flakes]

I do hope what remains they have are eventually released to be buried in Australia. That is where that little gal belongs.

You know tlcox, this raises one complicated issue that we in Australia have suffered great heartache over in our short existence since European colonisation. I need to explain this, so please bear with the apparent off-topic content, as it is entirely in context overall.

Our indigenous Aboriginal people were an absolute fascination to the European settlers of the penal colony known as the Antipodes (Australia). They sent skeletons and sometimes parts of skeletons back to England and European museums and private collections as curios, and for study. Consider the research and theories of Charles Darwin at that time for context! There was also the abhorrent practice of beheading the "savages" in hunts during warfare between the Aborigines and the European settlers (I use the term "savages" to convey to you the sentiment of these settlers, as this is the term they used ... sometimes if an Aboriginal demonstrated an aptitude for culture and etiquette they were called the "noble savage"! It was the British way to dehumanise the indigenous people). So heads were also sent back to Europe while the bodies were buried on Australian land. I am sure you get the idea of where I am going with this.

So in Australia we have a strong sense of land, which I think is a wonderful value that we've learned from our Aboriginal brothers and sisters. The land is 'sacred' or 'special'. Many white Australians are passionate about the specific location for their burial place, as are the Aboriginal people (though for spiritual and ancestral reasons in their case). Often it is a matter of ashes being scattered in secret bush or ocean locations, etc, as this allows freedom outside of a cemetery.

But partial burial is another thing. If Zahra's remains are returned to Australia for burial/scattering then this is only part of her body. This would mean part is in the USA in unknown locations and part is in Australia. That is something that upset the Aboriginal people for centuries, and we as a nation agreed that the parts of bodies should be together.

Just a spanner in the works I realise. I hope she is returned to Australia, which I consider to be Zahra's home. But I simultaneously wonder about the division of her remains. It is an uncomfortable issue given the circumstances.

 

[tlcya]

ty for giving me that food for thought. I know it is personally disturbing to a human that their loved one is lost or unaccounted for in death. I had not considered how that would be amplified when viewed through the Australian perspective in light of that disturbing practice.

Much as with Native Americans here, the aboriginal peoples of Australia were disrespected.

I truly hope at least some peaceful accord can be come to so that at least part of that child's physical being can be returned to the land of her birth, even though I am now saddened anew by the thought that more remains may lay undiscovered, in this country where she was made to suffer.

Reminds me anew how many people let that sweet child down.

 

[Flakes]

Please can one of the mods delete my above post? It was moved here (thank you!), but meanwhile I posted it in another thread which has had continued dialogue. Thanks in advance!

 

[Flakes]

ty for giving me that food for thought. I know it is personally disturbing to a human that their loved one is lost or unaccounted for in death. I had not considered how that would be amplified when viewed through the Australian perspective in light of that disturbing practice.

Much as with Native Americans here, the aboriginal peoples of Australia were disrespected.

I truly hope at least some peaceful accord can be come to so that at least part of that child's physical being can be returned to the land of her birth, even though I am now saddened anew by the thought that more remains may lay undiscovered, in this country where she was made to suffer.

Reminds me anew how many people let that sweet child down.

I am hoping that when the case is heard, and the perpetrator/s convicted that they will concede to revealing all the locations of body parts. Then Zahra can be buried whole.

 

[Carolina Girl]

I can only speak for myself, but I think bodies should remain whole also. Unfortunately, people close to Zahra did not, and because of that, I am not sure they will ever have remorse. But I still think what they do have and can identify needs to go back to Australia, where she was happy, and loved. I firmly believe that ED has the right to her Daughter's remains, that she was never allowed to have with her Daughter. MOO.