Why an intruder is not plausible; Patsy's clothes; and the R.'s obvious preferential treatment

[Deleted member 287549]

Hey everyone. This is my first post on this board. I've been following the JBR case for many years, have read a lot on the subject & definitely have some ideas as to what happened here. I didn't want to piggy-back on any other threads, given that I have some specific ideas to go over. Mods, I hope this is acceptable.

Part 1:

The JBR case is definitely one of the more fascinating & disturbing modern true crimes, especially since I don't think it will ever be solved (unfortunately). I have always believed that a member(s) of the family - in the house at the time - committed the crime, and that the family subsequently covered it up with the bogus "kidnapping" story. Re: a motive, I don't believe there was one - I believe it was a crime of anger/rage committed in the heat of the moment. And, I definitely don't see this as being premeditated.

The idea that an unknown "person or persons" broke into the house while the family was out, hid there for hours, wrote a kidnapping note (that they then left in the house with the body) - is patently ludicrous. Just to break this down:

If you believe the kidnapping "story", then you would need to believe the following: 1 or more people broke into the house while the family was out at a holiday party with the intent of kidnapping JBR for ransom; they stayed in the house and waited for the family to come home - which they knew could very well be hours?! I don't see this happening. What if the intruder(s) fell asleep while waiting, and the family found them?! The #1 goal of someone doing something like this would be to remain undetected; i.e., to be in & out as fast as possible without getting caught.

And - they were so disorganized that they didn't have a ransom note ready, so used a note-pad/paper found in the house to first write a "practice" note & then the "actual" note.

Then, this unknown person/persons waited until the family got home & went to sleep - remaining undetected by the family the entire time?! - and then went up to the child's room and forcibly removed her, with the intent to take her out of the house quietly, etc. Then, in the process of doing so, something went horribly wrong and the child was accidentally killed.

So, the alleged kidnappers, in a panic, left the body in the basement & left the note on the back stairway because they were in a hurry to leave?!! Very unlikely that these alleged criminals leave the kidnapping note behind after the child was accidentally killed. Obviously, with the child dead & left in the house, this became a murder case - and they weren't going to get any ransom money. So, the kidnapping note then became a critical piece of evidence that could have led the authorities to these alleged criminals. This was especially possible - considering that the note was handwritten, and not typed - and could potentially be traced back to someone with similar handwriting. I.e., it's almost certain that they would have taken this with them when they left.

Also, why did these alleged kidnappers not ransack the house for other valuables?! They would have known the R.'s were wealthy - yet, IIRC there is no evidence that anything of value was stolen (or else if it was, it wasn't reported).

 

[Deleted member 287549]

Part 2:

Why is the ransom the alleged "kidnappers" ask for only $118,000?! I.e., why not $500,000?! Why not a lot more?! If they knew enough to kidnap JBR you would think they would know the Ramsey's were extremely wealthy & had a lot more than what they asked. And, $118,000 was the amount of JR's bonus that year - I don't see this as being common knowledge to anyone other than the family & those who gave JR the bonus at work. I.e., you typically don't go around bragging to your co-workers/friends that you got that much bonus $, because it makes you look like a braggart & would cause jealousy among your peers.

Several other points:

-I never thought a stun gun was involved. Those marks on JBR's neck weren't definitively proven to have come from something like this. IIRC, the investigator working for the R.'s (the late LS) postulated the SG "theory".

-In defense of the authorities, they were called to the R. home on Christmas day, when they obviously had reduced staff due to the holidays. And, Boulder was/is a relatively safe & wealthy community, where you typically don't see crimes like this - so, they didn't have any experience with this type of thing. That all being said, there were several very serious mistakes made very early on in the investigation - which included:

1) The house was NOT secured by authorities in any way, shape, or form. First of all, it should have been searched extremely thoroughly from the beginning - if it had been, the body of JBR (in a small room off the basement) would probably have been found initially, and they should then have had the crime lab over there to analyze everything, etc. - while the body was still in the same place where it was found. However, as it stood - the initial search by the authorities missed the body. So, the father "found" the body hours after the authorities were originally called, and took it out of the basement room (which he should never have been allowed to do) - thereby contaminating the crime scene to an irreparable extent.

2) The R.'s should not have been allowed to have any friends/others over at the house while the investigation was going on. This further contaminated the crime scene(s), caused confusion, and interfered with the investigation.

3) The R.'s should have been questioned separately by the authorities almost immediately after they got to the house. And, there is no indication that this happened.

Going along with this: It's 100% obvious that if this were to have happened to a poor/middle class family (i.e., non-wealthy) under the exact same circumstances (i.e., their child was found dead in the house with a suspicious ransom note, etc.) the parents would have unquestionably gone to jail - probably for the rest of their lives...or worse. However, in this case - The R.'s extreme wealth & good standing in the community kept them from prison time - and kept the crime from being investigated as aggressively & as thoroughly as it should have been.

Also significant:

PR was wearing the same clothes two days in the row; i.e., she was wearing the same clothes on the day the authorities came to the house that she had been wearing the day before, at the Christmas party. Extremely suspicious & strange, especially given that she was known for always being very coiffed & put together at all times. I suspect the reason for this was because she never went to bed that night & never changed out of her clothes.

Re: the horrible trauma/abuse that was evidenced on the body of JBR when she was found, we don't know how much of this occurred before she died. I.e., was this heinous trauma done with malice before she was hit in the head?! Unclear. However, if it was all done after she died - then I do completely believe the family was capable of "staging" this - in order to shift the blame away from them and onto a fictitious intruder.

Remember, the family had ALL NIGHT to come up with a story, set everything up, etc. - prior to calling the authorities in the morning. And, remember they had a LOT to lose if it came out that a family member was involved in the death. If the son was involved, he would obviously be taken away from the family & almost certainly institutionalized for quite some time, and this would ruin his life & future prospects, etc. If one or more of the parents were involved, they would possibly go to jail (I say possibly because wealthy people rarely see prison time, even for murder); this would also involve a lengthy & expensive court case, trial, etc. And, at the least - the family's good name/reputation would be permanently damaged & their good standing in the community would be ruined forever.

 

[Tobiano8th]

Sonny, welcome and fantastic comments

yes, IDI doesn't seem plausible........ basically it seems like 1) PR wrote that ransom note; 2) there is so little tangible IDI evidence; 3) IDI would assume so many characteristics of the intruder (very well educated and well-spoken but some sort of pedophile drifter, intimate knowledge of JR's bonus cheque.... to me, it seems fairly obvious a woman wrote RN. so did the pedophile drifter bring a cultured woman to R house with him)

RDI seems semi-implausible on first glance...... BUT really the only "leaps of faith" it requires is 1) R's didn't seek medical treatment for JBR (did they think she was dead? which, of course, she wasn't.); 2) would desecrate their daughter's body..... makes me wonder if JR wasn't involved until PR "discovered" the RN. I believe some of the police went ultimately with that theory....................

you would think most parents would get medical attention for their daughter if she was accidentally put close to death EVEN if it meant many years in prison. I'm aware of people who could have avoided death in the holocaust but didn't flee because they chose to comfort others who would surely die. they make the ultimate sacrifice perfectly knowing they would die due to their voluntarily not escaping (poor grammar)

 

[Tobiano8th]

I don't agree that BR would have been taken away from family if he had accidentally killed JBR.... but he would have been incredibly stigmatized for sure.

coverup for BR accidental killing ties a lot of loose ends up.. makes a lot of sense..................I guess the big question is "could a boy that age cause JBR's near-death?", i.e. "does he have that amount of power?"

 

[Tobiano8th]

PR accidental killing makes a lot of sense too, but loose ends don't tie as nicely together.

if it was BDI, it makes sense that the DA's went easy on the whole matter..... PDI, that doesn't make as much sense.

 

[proust20]

IMO the problem with an accidental death is the considerable length of time between the head blow and the strangulation, which ever came first.

 

[Tobiano8th]

Proust, I'm thinking 1) they (I think PR) were hoping she'd recover; 2) took some time/thought to figure the ligature and tons of other things (like the RN).

makes me think JR only got involved with discovery of RN..... and I had asked him in another thread whether JR's military service gave him rudimentary medical training i.e. determine if someone is actually dead or hanging on in grave condition.

 

[anonymiss]

IMO the problem with an accidental death is the considerable length of time between the head blow and the strangulation, which ever came first.

IMO the problem with an accidental death is the considerable length of time between the head blow and the strangulation, which ever came first.

What if JR/PR dropped the kids off at the house after the party to get them to bed early before the trip? Maybe JBR was sleeping and they put her to bed, figuring BR would be happy playing with his new Christmas gifts, while they made the rounds to give Christmas gifts to their friends before they left town for the holiday? Could someone have seen the kids being dropped off, or did someone at the party know the kids were going home, then enter the house with gloves on (it was cold outside) after JR/PR left? Then JBR gets injured, either intentionally or accidentally, so either IDI or BDI. After the R's get home a few hours later, they find JBR with the head injury, she's already gone, so they start staging the cover up for whoever was responsible? This theory assumes the R's and their friends are lying about the events of Christmas night.

 

[UKGuy]

What if JR/PR dropped the kids off at the house after the party to get them to bed early before the trip? Maybe JBR was sleeping and they put her to bed, figuring BR would be happy playing with his new Christmas gifts, while they made the rounds to give Christmas gifts to their friends before they left town for the holiday? Could someone have seen the kids being dropped off, or did someone at the party know the kids were going home, then enter the house with gloves on (it was cold outside) after JR/PR left? Then JBR gets injured, either intentionally or accidentally, so either IDI or BDI. After the R's get home a few hours later, they find JBR with the head injury, she's already gone, so they start staging the cover up for whoever was responsible? This theory assumes the R's and their friends are lying about the events of Christmas night.

anonymiss,
Sure this is possible. It's only drawback is its complexity as it would need collusion with the Stines, including the the son, BR's buddy.

.

 

[anonymiss]

All they needed to say to LE is one lie, "the kids were in the car when our gifts were dropped off." It's an intriguing question why the R's were so close with the Stines, but had a falling out with FW.
I always wondered if the R's were involved, why didn't they just get rid of the body and blame it on an unknown kidnapper who wrote the RN. With all their connections, it would have been so easy for them to do.

 

[David Rogers]

All they needed to say to LE is one lie, "the kids were in the car when our gifts were dropped off." It's an intriguing question why the R's were so close with the Stines, but had a falling out with FW.
I always wondered if the R's were involved, why didn't they just get rid of the body and blame it on an unknown kidnapper who wrote the RN. With all their connections, it would have been so easy for them to do.

They could not just not get rid of the body. The Ramsey’s redressed her after the assault. No intruder is going to do that. They couldn’t leave he out to be eaten by animals. They had plans to take her to Michigan and bury the body there.

 

[Deleted member 287549]

Yes, I completely agree the R.'s wanted the body of JBR in the house so they could bury this & have a funeral, etc. - and not have the body affected by the elements/animals, etc.

However, it would definitely had added credibility/credence to their bogus "kidnapping" story if the body was found somewhere outside the house - i.e., similar to the 1932 Charles Lindbergh baby kidnapping.

But (and I suspect they thought of this), the obvious problem here is that if the R.'s took the body to another location that night, IMHO there was an extremely good chance they would be seen leaving the house & maybe even be seen disposing of the body, etc. This would hold true even if they left in the middle of the night & got back before it was light out, etc. Given the extremely high-profile nature of this crime, it's certain that if JBR's body had been found a distance away from the home, LE would have interviewed neighbors, other residents of Boulder & the surrounding areas, etc. to see if anyone saw anything/anyone suspicious during & after the time period that JBR was killed. So, I think someone would have seen them - if they had removed the body from the house.

 

[UKGuy]

All they needed to say to LE is one lie, "the kids were in the car when our gifts were dropped off." It's an intriguing question why the R's were so close with the Stines, but had a falling out with FW.
I always wondered if the R's were involved, why didn't they just get rid of the body and blame it on an unknown kidnapper who wrote the RN. With all their connections, it would have been so easy for them to do.

anonymiss,

I always wondered if the R's were involved, why didn't they just get rid of the body and blame it on an unknown kidnapper who wrote the RN.

Well they kinda did, just that they left JonBenet in the wine-cellar.

Is that not a clue right there. One that Columbo would have a One more question on.

I reckon there was more than one staging, minimally two, with one of the parents arriving late at the staged crime-scene, i.e. too late to move JonBenet outdoors, with rigor-mortis already setting in?

I do not know what the early morning light is like in Boulder at Christmas, but I'll bet John and Patsy were not going to show their face outdoors?

The role of the kidnapper was to mask which one of the Ramsey's actually moved JonBenet down to the basement!

.

 

[proust20]

There are the as yet unexplained bicycle tracks in the snow on the front lawn. So, driving the car out of the garage could not be accomplished without also leaving this tell tale trail. Putting the corpse in the car would have produced a detectable odor, as in the McCann case. If the Rs took any of this into consideration is unknowable.

A big problem for the Rs was their scheduled flight to MI in the morning. They could not fly out of town without JB, as this would be apparent to the pilot. Even the Rs couldn't shrug that off to LE. IMO the RN was composed in order to make the 911 call. They had decided on an IDI scenario, and the 911 dialog was the opening scene. ("We have a kidnapping.")

A question that I pose to IDI theory: By what means of transportation did the intruder arrive at the residence, and by what means did they flee?

 

[UKGuy]

There are the as yet unexplained bicycle tracks in the snow on the front lawn. So, driving the car out of the garage could not be accomplished without also leaving this tell tale trail. Putting the corpse in the car would have produced a detectable odor, as in the McCann case. If the Rs took any of this into consideration is unknowable.

A big problem for the Rs was their scheduled flight to MI in the morning. They could not fly out of town without JB, as this would be apparent to the pilot. Even the Rs couldn't shrug that off to LE. IMO the RN was composed in order to make the 911 call. They had decided on an IDI scenario, and the 911 dialog was the opening scene. ("We have a kidnapping.")

A question that I pose to IDI theory: By what means of transportation did the intruder arrive at the residence, and by what means did they flee?

proust20,

A big problem for the Rs was their scheduled flight to MI in the morning. They could not fly out of town without JB, as this would be apparent to the pilot. Even the Rs couldn't shrug that off to LE. IMO the RN was composed in order to make the 911 call. They had decided on an IDI scenario, and the 911 dialog was the opening scene. ("We have a kidnapping.")

I reckon they could have wrapped JonBenet in a blanket and carried her onto the plane saying she is very tired, etc.

Then at the other end faked her kidnap and placed her body outdoors somewhere?

.

 

[anonymiss]

Does anyone think JR suggested to LA that he search the house because he knew JBR was in the basement and wanted her found (after that officer didn't open the WC door)? LA could be lying about telling JR to search not to make herself look bad having JR outsmart her by asking to search, finding JBR and destroying evidence by picking her up. It seems like too much of a coincidence that LA tells JR to search the house and he finds JBR, imo.
Additionally, was JBR put in the WC because it was cool and the body wouldn't decompose so fast?

 

[Deleted member 287549]

Does anyone think JR suggested to LA that he search the house because he knew JBR was in the basement and wanted her found (after that officer didn't open the WC door)? LA could be lying about telling JR to search not to make herself look bad having JR outsmart her by asking to search, finding JBR and destroying evidence by picking her up. It seems like too much of a coincidence that LA tells JR to search the house and he finds JBR, imo.
Additionally, was JBR put in the WC because it was cool and the body wouldn't decompose so fast?

It's definitely possible. I still question how much JR knew about the murder before finding JBR's body in the basement. I've always felt that his finding the body was a little too convenient.

It's unfortunate that LE didn't find the body initially. If they had, they would probably have secured the crime scene (maybe), and the body wouldn't have been moved right away.

As it stood, when JR found the body & brought it upstairs, he contaminated the crime scene.

 

[anonymiss]

It's definitely possible. I still question how much JR knew about the murder before finding JBR's body in the basement. I've always felt that his finding the body was a little too convenient.

It's unfortunate that LE didn't find the body initially. If they had, they would probably have secured the crime scene (maybe), and the body wouldn't have been moved right away.

As it stood, when JR found the body & brought it upstairs, he contaminated the crime scene.

One thing that doesn't add up about LA is... Didn't she say or write sometime later, when she arrived at the scene she looked in JR's eyes and felt he was guilty or something to that effect? If so, why would she allow JR to search under any circumstances?

 

[icedtea4me]

proust20,

I reckon they could have wrapped JonBenet in a blanket and carried her onto the plane saying she is very tired, etc.

Then at the other end faked her kidnap and placed her body outdoors somewhere?

.

They still had to rendezvous with John Andrew, Melinda, and Stewart in Duluth(?) and fly to Charlevoix from there. Surely one of them is going to sense that something is amiss when JonBenet is not awake by noon, isn't making any sounds, her chest isn't rising and falling from breathing, and she's stiff as a board.

Melinda (24) graduated from Medical College of Georgia and is working in Pediatric ICU at Kennestone Hospital in Atlanta.

1996christmasnewsletter.htm

 

[Tadpole12]

Proust, I'm thinking 1) they (I think PR) were hoping she'd recover; 2) took some time/thought to figure the ligature and tons of other things (like the RN).

makes me think JR only got involved with discovery of RN..... and I had asked him in another thread whether JR's military service gave him rudimentary medical training i.e. determine if someone is actually dead or hanging on in grave condition.

Ie test pupillary dilation response with flashlight?