Why BOTH Garrote & Head Bash?

[lawstudent]

I don't feel like I'll ever know what happened in this case, but I'm starting to feel like if Patsy did it, much of our analysis is useless.

I don't believe this was an accident, and mothers who intentionally hurt their children in violent, staged ways without any notable prior indications or abuse seem to do so mostly because some combination of thoughts causes them to have period of time where they kind of detach and snap. The reasons given, in 99.9% of the cases, do not lead women to kill. I don't believe it's a readily explainable situation - I think it really has to do with that period in their life and their ability to detach more than the average person. There's a logic to it, but not one that can be clearly laid out to others. They seem to be only thinking about the narrative they are creating, and given how few mothers elaborately stage the death scene when they kill their child, I think it also depends on whether or not they have that dramatic personality trait that would make them want to stage instead of hide the body.

If in fact Patsy did it, I think it's real hard to blame it on bedwetting or anything else. I don't have any good explanation why she would have done it in this manner. I know parents lose their tempers and beat children to death, but that's not what I see in this situation. I don't see an accidental fall either, or meaning to hit someone else and accidentally bashing her - that seems like a stretch. I could see the detachment happen if molestation was discovered by anyone in the family - a desire to remove the problem without really thinking of it in depth. But I feel like a head bash is a really odd choice for premeditation. I just don't know.

The only thing I could possibly think of that would justify the staging and the severe head injury is Burke whacking her with something out of anger or just stupidity. The molestation and injury being committed by Burke has never seemed likely to me, but I know there have been a few situations of young males who rape a young girl, panic, and beat her to death.

But I just can't seem to justify Patsy doing this for any of the reasons given - same with John. The severe head bash aspect of this, along with the molestation, has just never made sense to me. Smothering and strangling alone would be something I'd associate more with a parent losing it, or an ongoing beating.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't feel like I'll ever know what happened in this case, but I'm starting to feel like if Patsy did it, much of our analysis is useless.



I don't believe this was an accident, and mothers who intentionally hurt their children in violent, staged ways without any notable prior indications or abuse seem to do so mostly because some combination of thoughts causes them to have period of time where they kind of detach and snap. The reasons given, in 99.9% of the cases, do not lead women to kill. I don't believe it's a readily explainable situation - I think it really has to do with that period in their life and their ability to detach more than the average person. There's a logic to it, but not one that can be clearly laid out to others. They seem to be only thinking about the narrative they are creating, and given how few mothers elaborately stage the death scene when they kill their child, I think it also depends on whether or not they have that dramatic personality trait that would make them want to stage instead of hide the body.



If in fact Patsy did it, I think it's real hard to blame it on bedwetting or anything else. I don't have any good explanation why she would have done it in this manner. I know parents lose their tempers and beat children to death, but that's not what I see in this situation. I don't see an accidental fall either, or meaning to hit someone else and accidentally bashing her - that seems like a stretch. I could see the detachment happen if molestation was discovered by anyone in the family - a desire to remove the problem without really thinking of it in depth. But I feel like a head bash is a really odd choice for premeditation. I just don't know.



The only thing I could possibly think of that would justify the staging and the severe head injury is Burke whacking her with something out of anger or just stupidity. The molestation and injury being committed by Burke has never seemed likely to me, but I know there have been a few situations of young males who rape a young girl, panic, and beat her to death.



But I just can't seem to justify Patsy doing this for any of the reasons given - same with John. The severe head bash aspect of this, along with the molestation, has just never made sense to me. Smothering and strangling alone would be something I'd associate more with a parent losing it, or an ongoing beating.

That's the hard part. We will never know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DeDee]

My parents owned a sailboat from the time I was a very small child. Every weekend was spent on the water or in it. My mother nor myself never learned to tie anything more complicated than our shoes. My dad on other hand, could tie every knot known to man and then some more.

All that to say, I think it's a mistake to assume Patsy knew anything about tying complicated knots based on Johns owning a sailboat...and IMO the knot wasn't complicated or outside the ability of even myself.

I disagree that Patsy was psychotic. I do agree she was a narcissist to the extreme.
I have great difficulty wrapping my head around long term premeditation.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I do adore a Sunday afternoon picnic of smoked chicken aboard a sailboat this time of the year.

Frankly, it doesn't matter how she learned to tie an uncomplicated knot even if it was via a macramé class, etal. Tying the knots involved in the CS is something that you could do in addition to tying knots in your laces.

A reason the premed is not favorable is multi-faceted with human compassion being the strongest bc the evidence is there to support PDI.

It is quite distasteful for our hearts and minds to go from seeing a beautiful, young mother, a Miss America contestant whose successful husband owned a co. worth billions and together who had two lovely children, plus others, and she seemed, by most accounts, to have achieved the great American Dream to then hide this dark side who becomes an ill mother who could seemingly coldly, and with almost an enjoyment of calculation, plan to kill her own daughter. For selfish needs.

That is a tough judgment to make; that is, premeditation of PDI and not one that I came too lightly nor quickly, nor, in the beginning, willingly.

The R kids were well-traveled. They were well dressed. There are copious amounts of pictures of them. They were her accessories. They were accessories like the Miss West Virginia gown and crown that were also on display at important events at the home.

That act standing alone, of openly displaying her accomplishments, is a beacon on narcissistic tendencies.

What does the meaning for the word psychotic hold true for you?

OMOATT

 

[Linda7NJ]

I do adore a Sunday afternoon picnic of smoked chicken aboard a sailboat this time of the year.



Frankly, it doesn't matter how she learned to tie an uncomplicated knot even if it was via a macramé class, etal. Tying the knots involved in the CS is something that you could do in addition to tying knots in your laces.



A reason the premed is not favorable is multi-faceted with human compassion being the strongest bc the evidence is there to support PDI.



It is quite distasteful for our hearts and minds to go from seeing a beautiful, young mother, a Miss America contestant whose successful husband owned a co. worth billions and together who had two lovely children, plus others, and she seemed, by most accounts, to have achieved the great American Dream to then hide this dark side who becomes an ill mother who could seemingly coldly, and with almost an enjoyment of calculation, plan to kill her own daughter. For selfish needs.



That is a tough judgment to make; that is, premeditation of PDI and not one that I came too lightly nor quickly, nor, in the beginning, willingly.



The R kids were well-traveled. They were well dressed. There are copious amounts of pictures of them. They were her accessories. They were accessories like the Miss West Virginia gown and crown that were also on display at important events at the home.



That act standing alone, of openly displaying her accomplishments, is a beacon on narcissistic tendencies.



What does the meaning for the word psychotic hold true for you?



OMOATT

Trust me, I have no great difficulty forming my theory that Patsy killed her daughter. Mothers kill their children every day. I do agree her children were accessories or simply there to serve as an extension of herself.
I believe Pasty was high strung and easily overwhelmed. I have no problem envisioning her picking up the flashlight and bashing JonBenet over the head with it in a fit of rage.

Psychotic- lose touch with reality, delusions, sometimes hallucinations, false perceptions....
I don't believe Patsy suffered a psychotic break.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[lawstudent]

Trust me, I have no great difficulty forming my theory that Patsy killed her daughter. Mothers kill their children every day. I do agree her children were accessories or simply there to serve as an extension of herself.
I believe Pasty was high strung and easily overwhelmed. I have no problem envisioning her picking up the flashlight and bashing JonBenet over the head with it in a fit of rage.

Psychotic- lose touch with reality, delusions, sometimes hallucinations, false perceptions....
I don't believe Patsy suffered a psychotic break.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But to hit her that hard with no history of such abuse? I could see slapping or shoving her or screaming awful things at her - but she had the flashlight nearby and just broke her skull in half? Not saying it's impossible, but there are many easily overwhelmed mothers who do snap, but that doesn't seem to be the way they generally do it. Repetitively hitting the child, but not one massive blow to the head. I just see that as a weird reaction. You see in murder cases all the time that someone claims the person fell and hit their head, but the evidence always reveals way more extensive injuries than that. To do that with one blow, it's such an extreme reaction, unlike the more natural one of grabbing and shaking a child who won't cooperate. I can't think of many murder cases where someone was killed by a single blow to the head. It's a bizarre thing to do to someone apart from a situation in which a beating escalates out of control, and there are multiple traumatic wounds to the head and other parts of the body. Then you have the staging, which rarely happens. Most moms who lose it on their kids and kill them will try and hide it or act like they don't know what happened and they found the kid like that. They don't want to keep getting more involved in it.

 

[Anyhoo]

I do adore a Sunday afternoon picnic of smoked chicken aboard a sailboat this time of the year.

Frankly, it doesn't matter how she learned to tie an uncomplicated knot even if it was via a macramé class, etal. Tying the knots involved in the CS is something that you could do in addition to tying knots in your laces.

A reason the premed is not favorable is multi-faceted with human compassion being the strongest bc the evidence is there to support PDI.

It is quite distasteful for our hearts and minds to go from seeing a beautiful, young mother, a Miss America contestant whose successful husband owned a co. worth billions and together who had two lovely children, plus others, and she seemed, by most accounts, to have achieved the great American Dream to then hide this dark side who becomes an ill mother who could seemingly coldly, and with almost an enjoyment of calculation, plan to kill her own daughter. For selfish needs.

That is a tough judgment to make; that is, premeditation of PDI and not one that I came too lightly nor quickly, nor, in the beginning, willingly.

The R kids were well-traveled. They were well dressed. There are copious amounts of pictures of them. They were her accessories. They were accessories like the Miss West Virginia gown and crown that were also on display at important events at the home.

That act standing alone, of openly displaying her accomplishments, is a beacon on narcissistic tendencies.

What does the meaning for the word psychotic hold true for you?

OMOATT

But we aren't just talking about tying a knot here. We are talking about creating a garrote, a strangulation device. It's a big leap from going from knowing how to tie a knot to knowing how to make a strangulation device. I think you are over simplifying it to support your position that anyone, even a house wife who couldn't even keep house, would know how to make and use a garrote. That is simply untrue IMO. And I don't agree that PR was psychotic.

 

[DeDee]

But we aren't just talking about tying a knot here. We are talking about creating a garrote, a strangulation device. It's a big leap from going from knowing how to tie a knot to knowing how to make a strangulation device. I think you are over simplifying it to support your position that anyone, even a house wife who couldn't even keep house, would know how to make and use a garrote. That is simply untrue IMO. And I don't agree that PR was psychotic.

When did I say PR was psychotic? Never. I asked a question in hopes of obtaining a response from her which I did.

My point about the knots being simple was a response to Linda7NJ's post. No need to take it out of context. I have never claimed the knots were simple...she did.

However, if I wanted to create a killing tool by using a nylon cord around a child's neck, it would not be difficult to figure out how. Do we know if PR did not practice on one of those life size dolls JBR possessed?

I watched karate shows in the 70s to know about a garrote. Garrotes have been written since long ago in novels. Think James Bond. What makes the strangulation device, the nylon cord, into a garrote is the paintbrush that belonged to the artist PR.

OMO

 

[chlban]

My parents owned a sailboat from the time I was a very small child. Every weekend was spent on the water or in it. My mother nor myself never learned to tie anything more complicated than our shoes. My dad on other hand, could tie every knot known to man and then some more.

All that to say, I think it's a mistake to assume Patsy knew anything about tying complicated knots based on Johns owning a sailboat...and IMO the knot wasn't complicated or outside the ability of even myself.

I disagree that Patsy was psychotic. I do agree she was a narcissist to the extreme.
I have great difficulty wrapping my head around long term premeditation.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ITA about the premeditation and, of coursse, that Patsy was an extreme narcissist. I don't think Pasty being around a boat means she knew about knots, but I also don't have any trouble believing that she fashioned the knot in this case. She may have had that knowledge any number of ways, but I would never underestimate what someone will do to set the stage after a murder.

Darlie Routier cut her own throat, which if she hit just the wrong spot could have actually killed her. Charles Stuart shot himself in a spot that could have rendered him unable to perform sexually, although I am quite sure that in both cases they did not plan to do any permanent damage, they took a risk, because it was preferable to being exposed as murderers (even though it didnt work in either case).

My point is Patsy was staging. IMO, either to save her own skin or her son's. Either way there is little I would put past her and fashioning the garotte is just not that far fetched in my mind.

 

[Linda7NJ]

But to hit her that hard with no history of such abuse? I could see slapping or shoving her or screaming awful things at her - but she had the flashlight nearby and just broke her skull in half? Not saying it's impossible, but there are many easily overwhelmed mothers who do snap, but that doesn't seem to be the way they generally do it. Repetitively hitting the child, but not one massive blow to the head. I just see that as a weird reaction. You see in murder cases all the time that someone claims the person fell and hit their head, but the evidence always reveals way more extensive injuries than that. To do that with one blow, it's such an extreme reaction, unlike the more natural one of grabbing and shaking a child who won't cooperate. I can't think of many murder cases where someone was killed by a single blow to the head. It's a bizarre thing to do to someone apart from a situation in which a beating escalates out of control, and there are multiple traumatic wounds to the head and other parts of the body. Then you have the staging, which rarely happens. Most moms who lose it on their kids and kill them will try and hide it or act like they don't know what happened and they found the kid like that. They don't want to keep getting more involved in it.

I agree with you. Most of the time there are other injuries from a prolonged attack.

I agree it is a weird reaction. This is a very weird scenario. Not your run of the mill crime scene.

Patsy loves over the top and dramatic, all the staging, all the small gestures of undoing...scream Patsy to me.

It could have happened in a instant, one strike to the head, instant regret, mourning, fear, desire to take zero responsibility, and an over the top staged "kidnapping" complete with a note...all Patsy.

All IMO






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Linda7NJ]

But we aren't just talking about tying a knot here. We are talking about creating a garrote, a strangulation device. It's a big leap from going from knowing how to tie a knot to knowing how to make a strangulation device. I think you are over simplifying it to support your position that anyone, even a house wife who couldn't even keep house, would know how to make and use a garrote. That is simply untrue IMO. And I don't agree that PR was psychotic.

I think it was simply a stick added later while the rope was already around her neck, for leverage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Anyhoo]

When did I say PR was psychotic? Never. I asked a question in hopes of obtaining a response from her which I did.

My point about the knots being simple was a response to Linda7NJ's post. No need to take it out of context. I have never claim ed the knots were simple...she did.

However, if I wanted to create a killing tool by using a nylon cord around a child's neck, it would not be difficult to figure out how. Do we know if PR did not practice on one of those life size dolls JBR possessed?

I watched karate shows in the 70s to know about a garrote. Garrotes have been written since long ago in novels. Think James Bond. What makes the strangulation device, the nylon cord, into a garrote is the paintbrush that belonged to the artist PR.

OMO

I've read your posts and, whether or not you used the word psychotic, that is the condition you are describing about PR. At least that is the way I interpreted what you said. We'll have to agree to disagree about PR and her supposed motivations for murdering/sacrificing her daughter.

 

[THE BUNK]

Hi, new memeber.

I have been an avid follower on the Zodiac Killer case, thought I might take a look at this case.

Regarding the garrotte and the head bash:

I find it a very telling clue that the head bash weapon has yet to be identified.

I also find it interesting that without the paintbrush, the garrotte would never have been identified as such.

It's almost like the killer wanted the police to know that Jon Benet was garroted. But was afraid of the police discovering the bludgeon instrument.

Which leads to the question...Why was the killer concerned that the bludgeon instrument would trace to him rather than the garrotte?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Hi, new memeber.



I have been an avid follower on the Zodiac Killer case, thought I might take a look at this case.



Regarding the garrotte and the head bash:



I find it a very telling clue that the head bash weapon has yet to be identified.



I also find it interesting that without the paintbrush, the garrotte would never have been identified as such.



It's almost like the killer wanted the police to know that Jon Benet was garroted. But was afraid of the police discovering the bludgeon instrument.



Which leads to the question...Why was the killer concerned that the bludgeon instrument would trace to him rather than the garrotte?

Welcome!

The stager wanted to point far away from themselves, as far away as possible. need a gruesome scene and a note for that, toss in little "foreign" faction...
can't get any further away from the household members than that!!!

IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[THE BUNK]

Welcome!

The stager wanted to point far away from themselves, as far away as possible. need a gruesome scene and a note for that, toss in little "foreign" faction...
can't get any further away from the household members than that!!!

IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks!

I agree. It's almost like the garrotte was for the police to notice rather than the Ramsey's.

If the intruder was trying to shock the Ramsey's with a display, the Ramsey's more than likely would have no idea what the garrote was for. The police on the other hand would no exactly what it was for.

Another question. Is it true that the bludgeon wound was a low velocity hit? Is it possible the wound occurred by hitting the floor after a slap to the head?

 

[2 percent]

Hi, new memeber.

I have been an avid follower on the Zodiac Killer case, thought I might take a look at this case.

Regarding the garrotte and the head bash:

I find it a very telling clue that the head bash weapon has yet to be identified.

I also find it interesting that without the paintbrush, the garrotte would never have been identified as such.

It's almost like the killer wanted the police to know that Jon Benet was garroted. But was afraid of the police discovering the bludgeon instrument.

Which leads to the question...Why was the killer concerned that the bludgeon instrument would trace to him rather than the garrotte?

Wow....Zodiac. Talk about a frustrating case!
My parents had a close encounter, although they didn't know it until later, at Lake Berryessa.

 

[THE BUNK]

Wow....Zodiac. Talk about a frustrating case!
My parents had a close encounter, although they didn't know it until later, at Lake Berryessa.

Wow, scary!! Zodiac is the last dude I would ever want to run into.

Yeah, I'm actually a regular at Tom Voigt's site.

 

[2 percent]

Wow, scary!! Zodiac is the last dude I would ever want to run into.

Yeah, I'm actually a regular at Tom Voigt's site.

Such an odd case. Sure people saw him and saw him doing curious things but they just fell short of "curious enough".
Take my parents, they were at Berryessa that day. My mom was very pregnant and wanting to get labor started, so they walked and walked. We've gone back several times and walked their path. They probably passed Zodiac not long before the attack but they just weren't curious enough of the people they were passing.

 

[lawstudent]

I agree with you. Most of the time there are other injuries from a prolonged attack.

I agree it is a weird reaction. This is a very weird scenario. Not your run of the mill crime scene.

Patsy loves over the top and dramatic, all the staging, all the small gestures of undoing...scream Patsy to me.

It could have happened in a instant, one strike to the head, instant regret, mourning, fear, desire to take zero responsibility, and an over the top staged "kidnapping" complete with a note...all Patsy.

All IMO
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think that's a possibility, but I get stuck on the first part: the strike to the head. Everything after would make sense to me with Patsy - the dramatic coverup of a dead child.

But you have to picture some situation in which Patsy was overcome by rage, happened to have some still unconfirmed heavy object in her hand, wielded it at JonBenet's head with enough force to crack her skull, and then was most likely convinced she was injured severely enough to be dead or not revivable.

To strike someone with that force without a history of assault is odd to me, although not impossible, obviously. Then, given that the head blow didn't appear as bad it was actually was, and given that a lot of knowledge about the danger of head blows is pretty recent, you have to assume that she didn't believe it was explainable as some sort of accident or that JonBenet could be saved. A lot of parents bring in beaten kids to the hospital with non-obvious head injuries try to blame a fall, but the autopsy report reveals that the injuries were severe and repetitive and they get arrested. She could have just panicked, but I think it's definitely questionable.

 

[DeeDee249]

Every pattern of abuse, whether sexual or physical abuse, whether abuse of a child, or spouse- has a FIRST occurrence. That not withstanding, there need be NO prior pattern of abuse if this was a rage attack or a bash meant to silence her scream.
Physical abuse patterns that are ongoing do not involve bludgeoning the child. That would happen ONLY once- and then the child would be either dead or brain-damaged. So in this case, any speculation about prior behaviors are not applicable, IMO.

 

[Anyhoo]

I heard someone's theory about JB's murder yesterday on another site and it was interesting the way they explained the presence of the garrote. What they said is that a garrote may have been used on JB prior to the night of the murder. Suppose the garrote was being used not just once but routinely on JB as part of some secret ritual. I have never been able to explain the garrote, which seems totally out of nowhere, but to me it makes better sense to think it was not created for the first time for the murder but it was being used on her for something else previously, and that is why it was there. What other purpose besides death could a garrote have? It could be used to bring a child near to death to condition them and to control them. Or perhaps another purpose. But I find the idea of the garrote being used on her previously to be very intriguing. Then on the night of the murder, something went wrong and JB accidentally died during this process. Then whoever was performing it on JB was forced into covering up what they had been doing to JB. This would be very closely associated with the on going sexual abuse of JB likely from the same person garroting her. And to be clear, this is RDI.