Why BOTH Garrote & Head Bash?

[ellen13]

aussiesheila,

The body was definitely wiped down. The autopsy revealed countless dark fibers on the body, including on the inner thighs and folds of the labia. What's interesting is the fact that the wipedown cloth that left the fibers on the body was never found. Nothing in the Ramsey house matched the fibers on the body.

Therefore, you are probably right. The fibers came from the abuser's clothing. For instance, if the fibers came from the killer's dark shirt, then when he dressed himself after the sexual assault and used his shirt to wipe away forensic evidence, he simply put the shirt back on and walked out of the house wearing it.

This is one of the reasons I'm convinced there was a fifth person in the house that night, invited in by a Ramsey family member. The killing involved these two individuals. The fifth person was not an intruder because the Ramseys wouldn't be carrying out their obvious coverup to protect the identity of an intruder. IMO the mysterious fifth person was another Ramsey family member not living in the house or a very close friend of the family.

BlueCrab

Am I wrong, or did I read that those dark fibers came from JR's Italian made black shirt???? Or, if his fibers from his shirt were found, where were they found?

 

[tipper]

Am I wrong, or did I read that those dark fibers came from JR's Italian made black shirt???? Or, if his fibers from his shirt were found, where were they found?

That was said in one of the interviews. But since we know the police are allowed to lie for effect it doesn't tell us if that was actually true. I think there are also references that the police weren't able to match them to anything so who knows?

 

[BlueCrab]

Am I wrong, or did I read that those dark fibers came from JR's Italian made black shirt???? Or, if his fibers from his shirt were found, where were they found?

ellen13,

During the 2000 interviews in Atlanta here's how interrogator Bruce Levin addressed Patsy Ramsey and Lin Wood:

"There are black fibers that according to our testing that was conducted, that match one of the two shirts provided to us by the Ramseys. Black shirt -- those fibers are located in the underpants of JonBenet Ramsey. They're found in the crotch area."

Lin Wood wouldn't let Patsy respond. Later in the interview with John Ramsey the black fibers in the crotch of JonBenet's panties matching his black shirt was brought up again and John Ramsey replies: "."

BlueCrab

 

[ellen13]

Am I wrong, or did I read that those dark fibers came from JR's Italian made black shirt???? Or, if his fibers from his shirt were found, where were they found?

BC-
I know you believe that there was a fifth person in the house that night, but do you believe that some of those fibers could have been from JR? Also,
PR could have easily done a load of laundry after wiping JBR down and had it put away. To me, it's easy to get that rag washed and put away. It's the tape and rope that disappeared that I have to wonder about. I'm still stuck on BR's knife and that whole thing-it being hidden, but then having the rope fibers on it. Another question, do you find any truth at all to Jmac's theory? Did it ever cross your mind?
PS: Thanks for supporting my theory that no spider was at work at 6am. It makes me feel like I'm not a total idiot on this board.
Ellen13

 

[tipper]

ellen13,

During the 2000 interviews in Atlanta here's how interrogator Bruce Levin addressed Patsy Ramsey and Lin Wood:

"There are black fibers that according to our testing that was conducted, that match one of the two shirts provided to us by the Ramseys. Black shirt -- those fibers are located in the underpants of JonBenet Ramsey. They're found in the crotch area."

Lin Wood wouldn't let Patsy respond. Later in the interview with John Ramsey the black fibers in the crotch of JonBenet's panties matching his black shirt was brought up again and John Ramsey replies: "."

BlueCrab

2 A. . I don't believe that.
3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to
4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --
5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to
6 disgrace --
7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I
8 think you are. That's disgusting.
9 MR. WOOD: I think you --
10 MR. LEVIN: I am not.
11 MR. WOOD: Yes, you are.
12 MR. LEVIN: And the follow-up
13 question would be --
14 MR. WOOD: Posing the question in
15 light of what I said to you yesterday is
16 nothing more than an attempt to make a
17 record that unfairly, unjustly, and in a
18 disgusting fashion points what you might
19 consider to be some finger of blame at this
20 man regarding his daughter, and you ought to
21 be ashamed of yourself for doing it, Bruce.
22 You knew we weren't going to
23 answer the question. Why don't you just
24 give us the report, and we'll put it out
25 there for someone to look at and tell us
0059
1 what it says and see how fair and accurate
2 you have been.
3 I know why you said what you said
4 yesterday about Patsy and the fibers and John
5 and the fibers. And you know why you did
6 it, Bruce. Because you want this somehow to
7 get out and then people will read that and
8 be prejudiced even further against this
9 family.
10 I just don't know why you want to
11 do it, but I can't stop you.
12 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Wood, if you
13 would like to, I would challenge you to find
14 any article anywhere that I have been quoted
15 as giving an opinion or any statement to the
16 press concerning this case.
17 MR. WOOD: You don't have to be
18 quoted. You don't have to be quoted.
19 MR. LEVIN: Or any piece of
20 evidence that I have released.
21 MR. WOOD: You don't have to be
22 quoted. You do not have to be quoted.
23 MR. LEVIN: This is a murder
24 investigation, and I am trying to get an
25 explanation, which can be an innocent
0060
1 explanation.
2 MR. WOOD: It could be, but you
3 pose your question as if it's not not.
4 That's what's unfair. Why don't you let us
5 see the report so we can know exactly what's
6 going on, exactly what other fibers were
7 found in that area so that you don't
8 unfairly cast an aspersion through innuendo
9 or suggestion toward this man and his
10 daughter.
11 It seems to me that you should
12 look over and go look, Mr. Wood, we want
13 your client's help, we will give you the
14 test results if it will help get this
15 answered, if it is so important, we'll tell
16 you whether there was another fiber or fibers
17 found that we doen't know where they came
18 from and maybe he can help you with that
19 information, but that is not what you are
20 doing. You are focusing on what you believe
21 is one specific area. And you are doing it
22 in a way that I think is just unfair.
23 Let me just answer your question
24 about you being quoted. Look, John and
25 Patsy Ramsey sat around for three years and
0061
1 did not go public with this case, even
2 though your people were talking to tabloids
3 and writing books and appearing on
4 television. Linda Arndt, Steve Thomas, Alex
5 Hunter.
6 You want to go through the litany
7 of how your people have publicly prosecuted
8 and persecuted this family, and now they
9 decided enough is enough and they tried to
10 go out with me, yes, sir, and them and try
11 to refute some of the absolute lies that
12 have been told about them. Do you have a
13 problem with that?
14 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Wood.
15 MR. WOOD: Because your people
16 have been saying it. I am not calling your
17 name. I don't know who it is linked to.
18 I don't know who gave the ransom note to
19 Vanity Fair. I'm not suggesting it is you.
20 But don't sit here and tell me that because
21 Bruce Levin hasn't been quoted that this
22 investigation from the Boulder Police
23 Department and the district attorney's office
24 is a lily white when it comes to talking
25 about this case in the media because that is
0062
1 false, and you know it.
2 MR. LEVIN: Now, Mr. Wood, if I
3 can just respond very briefly, and I want
4 Mr. Ramsey to listen to this because it's
5 important, the suggestion is that I am
6 suggesting that the only explanation for that
7 question is sinister. I am a part of a
8 team conducting an investigation into your
9 daughter's death, and an innocent explanation
10 that would help us further that investigation
11 is very welcome. I am not looking for a
12 sinister answer or innocent answer.
13 MR. WOOD: If you are looking for
14 that, then give us the test result and let
15 us know what it says.
16 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Wood, the fact
17 of --
18 MR. WOOD: No, Bruce. If you
19 wanted the answer so badly, you would give
20 us the test result instead of representing
21 what the test result is. I, for the life
22 of me, do not understand the logic.
23 You say we can tell you what the
24 test result is, but we can't show you the
25 test result. So trust us, Mr. Ramsey, and
0063
1 answer this hypothetical question.
2 If that information means that
3 much to this investigation, Bruce, you would
4 not hesitate to give us that report, period.
5 So let's move to something else.
6 MR. LEVIN: Let's move on to
7 another topic.
8 THE WITNESS: If the question is
9 how did fibers of your shirt get into your
10 daughter's underwear, I say that is not
11 possible. I don't believe it. That is
12 ridiculous.
13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I need to
14 change the audio cassette. It will take
15 just one moment.

 

[BlueCrab]

2 A. . I don't believe that.
3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to
4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --
5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to
6 disgrace --
7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I
8 think you are. That's disgusting.

--------------

8 THE WITNESS: If the question is
9 how did fibers of your shirt get into your
10 daughter's underwear, I say that is not
11 possible. I don't believe it. That is
12 ridiculous.

Sorry John, but it's NOT impossible, and it's NOT ridiculous. It's a fact. The police say they have evidence that fibers from your black shirt you wore to the White's dinner party that night were found in the crotch area of JonBenet's panties.

Your denial and Lin Wood's fillibuster does not change that fact.

BlueCrab

 

[UKGuy]

Sorry John, but it's NOT impossible, and it's NOT ridiculous. It's a fact. The police say they have evidence that fibers from your black shirt you wore to the White's dinner party that night were found in the crotch area of JonBenet's panties.

Your denial and Lin Wood's fillibuster does not change that fact.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Well thats what the police say, and while interviewing suspects they have a large degree of freedom to voice their opinions as statements of fact, hoping to elicit a confession.

The fibers may only be consistent with or similar too those from his shirt, matching fibers is not the same as matching dna or ink samples.

The police themselves conceded the fibers could, as a court defense, be held to have arrived there by simple transference, JR lived in the house JB lived in the same house, they shared the same environment, and that means the same atmospheric fibers.

There were also 4 red acrylic fibers on the sticky side of the tape found on JonBenet's mouth, that tape was left behind in the wine-cellar, after her body was discovered. Those 4 fibers were matched directly with Patsy's red-and-black checked jacket worn on the 25th and 26th.

If you accept JR's shirt fibers as primae facia evidence, then PR's should also be included. This places both of them at a crime-scene. Since I consider the wine-cellar to be wholly a staged event, I would consider JR and PR as prime suspect stagers!

2 A. . I don't believe that.
3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to
4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --

I note he did not say, or even allege: I did not have a sexual relationship with my daughter.


.

 

[rashomon]

There were also 4 red acrylic fibers on the sticky side of the tape found on JonBenet's mouth, that tape was left behind in the wine-cellar, after her body was discovered. Those 4 fibers were matched directly with Patsy's red-and-black checked jacket worn on the 25th and 26th.

And weren't fibers from that jacket found in the paint tray too?

 

[BlueCrab]

Bruce Levin, while interrogating Patsy, said the black fibers from John's shirt MATCHED the fibers found in the crotch of JonBenet panties. That's a rather strong comment coming from an attorney who should know the difference between fibers that MATCH and fibers that are merely CONSISTENT WITH fibers found at a crime scene.

Crime scene fibers are seldom found to be a match to a suspect's clothing. "Match" means there's no wiggle room. IOW, it's a scientific fact. "Consistent with" means maybe or even probably, but there's some wiggle room left.

Of course, Levin could have misspoke.

BlueCrab

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Fibers aren't like fingerprints or DNA. Fibers are fibers. The black fibers found anywhere around JBR could have originated almost anywhere. The presence of foreign and as yet unidentified DNA is probably a lot more significant than black fibers.

 

[BlueCrab]

Fibers aren't like fingerprints or DNA. Fibers are fibers. The black fibers found anywhere around JBR could have originated almost anywhere. The presence of foreign and as yet unidentified DNA is probably a lot more significant than black fibers.

Holdontoyourhat,

Thousands of killers have been convicted solely because of fiber evidence. It's a jury's decision.

The black fibers found in the crotch of JonBenet's panties were probably easy to source because John's black shirt was made of wool in Israel, which would make it an unusual shirt.

The shirt fibers were obviously a direct transfer, and not a secondary transfer. The crotch is a rather protected location.

BlueCrab

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Thousands of killers have been convicted solely because of fiber evidence. It's a jury's decision.

BlueCrab

Thousands of killers??? Solely because of fiber evidence?

Really? C'mon BC. You're kidding, right?

 

[UKGuy]

And weren't fibers from that jacket found in the paint tray too?

rashomon,

Yes I believe so, IMO the circumstantial evidence, along with the forensic evidence such as the shirt fibers from JR's shirt and the various fibers from PR's jacket make them the leading suspect candidates in the staging of JonBenets final resting place and ultimately a crime scene.

 

[UKGuy]

Holdontoyourhat,

Thousands of killers have been convicted solely because of fiber evidence. It's a jury's decision.

The black fibers found in the crotch of JonBenet's panties were probably easy to source because John's black shirt was made of wool in Israel, which would make it an unusual shirt.

The shirt fibers were obviously a direct transfer, and not a secondary transfer. The crotch is a rather protected location.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

The crotch is a rather protected location.

And the underside of the tape which was removed from JonBenet's mouth, is that similarly a protected location?

.

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,

The crotch is a rather protected location.

And the underside of the tape which was removed from JonBenet's mouth, is that similarly a protected location?

.

UKGuy,

Your question is unclear. Are you referring to the underside of the tape or JonBenet's mouth as the protected location?

Neither one of course is a protected location equal to the crotch. The tape had hundreds of microscopic fibers on it. And the mouth was a protected location equal to the crotch only if she was wearing underwear and longjohns over her head -- not hardly the case.

BlueCrab

 

[rashomon]

Thousands of killers have been convicted solely because of fiber evidence. It's a jury's decision.

Thousands of killers??? Solely because of fiber evidence?

Really? C'mon BC. You're kidding, right?

Maybe not thousands of killers, but fiber evidence does play a pivotal role in many murder cases, and the Ramsey case is no exception.
Fibers from John Ramsey's T-shirt in JB's crotch area, fibers from Patsy's jacket on the duct tape and in the paint tray - everything just screams that this was an 'inside job', like John Ramsey himself revealingly said.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

Your question is unclear. Are you referring to the underside of the tape or JonBenet's mouth as the protected location?

Neither one of course is a protected location equal to the crotch. The tape had hundreds of microscopic fibers on it. And the mouth was a protected location equal to the crotch only if she was wearing underwear and longjohns over her head -- not hardly the case.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

mmmm , the question was not about equality, it was wrt how protected the underside or gummed side of the tape, which had been placed over her mouth was?

As I see the prevailing theory her alleged killer taped JonBenet's mouth with tape, as you have remarked upon on numerous occassions, you consider the remainder of the roll missing?

So we have gummed tape adhering to JonBenet's mouth, lips however you wish to characterise it, there may or may not be air pockets?

On the sticky side were some fibers, which I have never had the luxury of counting or enumerating, have you ?

Amongst these fibers were 4 red acrylic fibers, the Colorado Bureau of Investigation ran the tests and concluded that they were chemically and microscopically consistent with the fibers on Patsy's red-and-black checked jacket worn on the 25th and 26th.

Now JonBenet's genital area was wiped down, so it is not as protected as the word protected might imply!

There was dried blood and mucus around JonBenet's mouth, over which the tape had been placed, this obviously had not been wiped or cleaned as her protected genital area had been.

Patsy did not go downstairs to the basement on the morning of the 26th, the last person to touch that tape was Fleet White, I have alluded to this event already, and of course prior to this John Ramsey, who removed it and deposited on the blanket.

Yet 4 red acrylic fibers recovered from the sticky side were matched to PR's red-and-black checked jacket.

rashomon: has also reminded us that similar red acrylic fibers were discovered in the paint tote. The only distinction I would draw is that the paint tote was not sealed. Whereas the tape was alleged to be so!

Now

And the mouth was a protected location equal to the crotch only if she was wearing underwear and longjohns over her head -- not hardly the case.
BlueCrab

Well was her mouth sealed by the tape or was it not?

If not what was the purpose of the tape, if it was placed there after her death, as the dried mucus and blood appears to indicate, then things are not as they seem?

So will you accord the fibers found under the black tape the same status as those found on her genital area, e.g. forensic evidence, which was wiped down, and as far as I can discern her mouth was not similarly wiped?


.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Fibers belonging to any R can be expected to be prevalent throughout their own house, and especially on their own daughter. IOW family members' fibers found on other family members just isn't very remarkable. There's at least a dozen ways to transfer fibers from one person to another, either by direct contact or by transfer contact.

Its impossible to say conclusively whether a fiber found in any location got there by direct or transfer contact. It is possible to crassly speculate, though.

 

[UKGuy]

Fibers belonging to any R can be expected to be prevalent throughout their own house, and especially on their own daughter. IOW family members' fibers found on other family members just isn't very remarkable. There's at least a dozen ways to transfer fibers from one person to another, either by direct contact or by transfer contact.

Its impossible to say conclusively whether a fiber found in any location got there by direct or transfer contact. It is possible to crassly speculate, though.

Holdontoyourhat,

Speculation is not required. The fibers exist as found on the victim at the crime scene, you are not being asked to dream them up, similar to some violent intruder theory!

 

[sissi]

Gaffers tape is designed to be "less sticky" than traditional duct tape. I'm not sure how this plays into it, however I suspect, the normal telling signs ,expected by LE ,would not be found on gaffer's tape. This tape , being more expensive, as well, would suggest the perp used it in his profession, and that profession was likely to have placed him/her in Jonbenet's life. Camera...stage lighting...setting up electrical wiring for musicians..something of the kind..